Most important attribute of a riding coach?

[Misti]

What would you guys say is the most important attribute of a riding coach or instructor? If you were working with one, what would be the main thing that would make an instructor exceptional rather than just fair or good?

Misti

[alex.s]

the good ones tell me both what to do, and what not to do. the bad ones tell me only what to do.

[csmith12]

Patience (in many forms) and a willingness to adjust on the fly to what the learner needs.

[NevadaWolf]

I like instructors who can tell me exactly what I am doing, demonstrate it clearly enough that I recognize it is what I am doing, then either tell me how to improve or eliminate it from my habits.

Too often I hear someone pointing something out and I never see what they are explaining. So I miss what the point is because I don't have a clear idea what is being changed.

[adouglas]

- Two-way, actual communication, which is not the same thing as delivering pat answers to questions. That takes engagement.

- The ability to explain complicated ideas in a way that the student understands. That takes the ability to speak to the student on their level, no matter what that might be.

- The ability to link ideas together so that the whole thing makes sense. Too often we talk about just one thing at a time, when in fact we're doing several things at once and it all flows together.

- An understanding of, and ability to communicate, not only what do do but why it works that way. I HATE arbitrary directions. Help me understand how and why things work and I'll listen to you all day long.

[250rr]

Tell me exactly what I need to do to be better. I don't need hand-holding . I don't need sugar-coating.

I won't be offended. Tell me what to do!

[EsrTek]

Originally Posted by Misti

What would you guys say is the most important attribute of a riding coach or instructor?

Direct feedback of the students riding style and positioning.
The fewer students, the better attention seems to be paid per student. Which imparts more confidence in students.

If you were working with one, what would be the main thing that would make an instructor exceptional rather than just fair or good?

I like ones that make you think and ask you what you did wrong and what your going to do to fix it. Then go make you do it that way.
Ones that always focus on what you did right or wrong, only, and just give short feedback. May not instill the confidence the student needs in the trainer, thus they don't always get the desired results from all students.


You startin a school... your methods on the forums would be ideal coach!

[Sirref]

The coaches that I worked with at mid-ohio were exceptional, what made them exceptional was the following.

-Two way open communication
-Rather than just tell me what to do we discussed what I thought I was doing and what I could do better first then the coaches helped me reach the answer myself by asking questions.
----Example "I'm not confident at all in the keyhole, and yet I'm hitting the apex every single time through the carousel (corkscrew? I don't remember the name but it was essentially the same corner, it's where you can pit in at mid-O)" "well what are you doing differently in those two corners" "I'm not entirely sure" "hmm, where are your reference points? where are you looking while going through those corners?" "I'm looking at the next corner after the carousel, but with the keyhole I keep glancing down at that indycar rubber" "you've just answered your own question. Try focusing farther ahead through the keyhole and you won't go over the indycar rubber" I improved a lot through there, though it was still my worst corner by far since that rubber on the track sketched me out a bit both days.
-They were able to come down to my level, it doesn't matter how good you are if you can't relate to the student. If you can relate to the student though it will immediately be a much better experience for both parties. I had a coach at shenandoah circuit who I could tell didn't want to slow down enough from his proper A-group pace for me to be comfortable following his lines. Which created an experience that was far from ideal.

[Misti]

Originally Posted by adouglas

-
- An understanding of, and ability to communicate, not only what do do but why it works that way. I HATE arbitrary directions. Help me understand how and why things work and I'll listen to you all day long.

I really like this one. Students should understand WHY what they are doing isn't correct and why they should be doing it a different way instead of just being told what to do. Too often I hear people giving advice to riders like, "you need to just hang off the bike more." but they don't give any reason as to why they want you to do that.

I work with a really fast Canadian kid here named Jake Hayes and the first day I watched him ride I noticed that he was hanging waaaaaay of the bike. When I asked him why he said, "because someone told me to." when I asked him why riders hang off the bike in the first place he couldn't even tell me why. So we went through what hanging off the bike does to the bike (reduced overall lean angle) and I showed him the difference between how he was riding and how he should be riding. Once he understood WHY he was able to make radical changes.

I think good coaches explain WHY things should be done a certain way and they don't just give arbitrary suggestions like "go faster, enter deeper, brake later, hang off more..." they tell you why and also teach you HOW.

What other attributes make a good riding coach?

[Yakaru]

Making sure that your student is on the same page and getting value. It sounds obvious, but it can be easy to miss. I'll actually use my 2 experiences at California Superbike for two examples of how:

- Momaru's original teacher for level 1 was using a very Socratic teaching method. Momaru wasn't getting as much as he could've and is the type to not complain, I did an endrun (spoke to staff who relayed it to his coach) for him though and his experience improved dramatically.

- I'm much more of an interactive learner. My best experiences have been when I can practice, get feedback, then practice the same thing again. When my teachers correct me mid-lesson, I get much more out of it.

If a teacher can identify how the students best learn, they will be that much more valuable.

[Skullz]

An outgoing, personable individual with the ability to convey their knowledge to people in a way that each and every one of them understands and learns, whether your the first time beginner to someone that has been doing it for years.
Some people just have that innate ability to communicate in a way that everyone enjoys.

[adouglas]

Yay! Misti gave me a gold star!

My mommy says I'm special.

[csmith12]

@Misti - question for you, coach to coach.

Originally Posted by csmith12

know I wasn't a "formal coach" with a yellow jersey and all that day but I try to take pride in "seeing what cannot be seen ahead of time".

How do I get better at seeing/steering issues ahead of time before they turn into rider downs? I thought I was pretty good at it, I was wrong.

[snot]

@csmith12 you are good at it, everyone has a bad day

I want my teacher to ride in front of me for a bit so, I can see what to do then, follow me so I know what I am not doing right.

[Sirref]

Originally Posted by snot

@csmith12 you are good at it, everyone has a bad day

I want my teacher to ride in front of me for a bit so, I can see what to do then, follow me so I know what I am not doing right.

flip that around, you want them to follow you first so they can show you what you need to be doing after figuring out what you are doing

[cbinker]

being able to put things in words you understand.

[snot]

Originally Posted by Sirref

flip that around, you want them to follow you first so they can show you what you need to be doing after figuring out what you are doing

I know when I followed Chris I felt more confident and I trust him to keep me safe. If I could follow him for a few sessions I bet I would double my pace and confidence.

[Sirref]

Originally Posted by snot

I know when I followed Chris I felt more confident and I trust him to keep me safe. If I could follow him for a few sessions I bet I would double my pace and confidence.

Trust yourself, anyone can make mistakes and you're the only one who can feel what your bike is trying to tell you.

[snot]

Originally Posted by Sirref

Trust yourself, anyone can make mistakes and you're the only one who can feel what your bike is trying to tell you.

I swear it said "follow him and do what he does".. lol
I know, I just really need to trust who I follow and who is teaching me. I do believe you are right, that is my next step. Stop following and lead.

[csmith12]

Getting a good tow around a track can work wonders for some riders as long as it's at a pace they are comfortable with.

[ally99]

A good coach notices problems on the track, sometimes even before a rider does and intervenes immediately.

I had one of the coaches follow me onto the track second session at Jennings, but he zipped past me before corner 5 and was gone in a blink. How I WISH he had followed behind me, noticed I wasn't in the game yet, and took initiative to lead me around a few times. However, in all fairness, that's almost like wishing coaches were mind readers and they're not.

Sportbike Track Time has some damn good coaching. It was always differentiated and coaching (not riding for fun) was the coaches' focus for the entire morning (or day) in novice.

[Sirref]

Originally Posted by csmith12

Getting a good tow around a track can work wonders for some riders as long as it's at a pace they are comfortable with.

yup, the problem comes when it stops being a pace they are comfortable with but they follow anyway. To be straight up when you went by me I was comfortable with the pace of trying to catch you until I had some tire slip at turn 8 which led me to believe that you intended me to follow you. There may be a big gap in skills but it's slowly being narrowed down

[Sirref]

Originally Posted by ally99

A good coach notices problems on the track, sometimes even before a rider does and intervenes immediately.

I had one of the coaches follow me onto the track second session at Jennings, but he zipped past me before corner 5 and was gone in a blink. How I WISH he had followed behind me, noticed I wasn't in the game yet, and took initiative to lead me around a few times. However, in all fairness, that's almost like wishing coaches were mind readers and they're not.

Sportbike Track Time has some damn good coaching. It was always differentiated and coaching (not riding for fun) was the coaches' focus for the entire morning (or day) in novice.

well the issue there is with only 2 coaches, they're not coaches they're control riders. They can be coaches if you ask but there aren't enough of them for proper coaching to occur. That said, they did go by a bit quick onto the next person early in the day. I believe they were looking for glaring issues since later in the day I had ron follow me for a full lap then pass me with a thumbs up, ed did the same. Once they saw that there wasn't an "apparent immediate concern" they focused more on the individual riders. Nothing compared to coaching at mid-O, I'd relate it to shenny where you're really on your own depending on the org.

[csmith12]

Originally Posted by ally99

A good coach notices problems on the track, sometimes even before a rider does and intervenes immediately.

My question is mainly about off track time.

I feel pretty good about catching things on track, there is normally a ton of cues. My biggest issue on track is, I can't be everywhere at the same time. I am estimating that Sirref, Floki and I were somewhere around turn 9 or 10 when you were exiting turn 1.

[csmith12]

Originally Posted by Sirref

yup, the problem comes when it stops being a pace they are comfortable with but they follow anyway. To be straight up when you went by me I was comfortable with the pace of trying to catch you until I had some tire slip at turn 8 which led me to believe that you intended me to follow you. There may be a big gap in skills but it's slowly being narrowed down

We already chatted about that one through. It was never my intent for you to follow me, let alone try to catch me. It was my fault for not communicating that to you on track, like I had been doing. I forgot one little time...

[Sirref]

Originally Posted by csmith12

We already chatted about that one through. It was never my intent for you to follow me, let alone try to catch me. It was my fault for not communicating that to you on track, like I had been doing. I forgot one little time...

I don't blame you though, I can tell when someones pace is well beyond my own normally but it felt comfortable like it wasn't too far off my own pace until turn 8. A signal would have communicated it immediately but you putting mad distance between you and me would also communicate it pretty well.

[choneofakind]

Someone who has had to learn the skill themselves is a must. People who are naturally skilled at something are terrible teachers because they don't know how to help. Someone who has had to teach themselves a skill will be a more competent teacher because they already know how to put the skill into thoughts and words

[csmith12]

Originally Posted by snot

I know when I followed Chris I felt more confident and I trust him to keep me safe. If I could follow him for a few sessions I bet I would double my pace and confidence.

I did many things while we were out;

Kept the overall pace well in check, but smooth throughout
Kept riders from piling up behind us by waving them around
Altered the lines to make them more "streetish" but not intersect with others
Pointed out the apexes
Spent a whole lot of time facing backward to ensure you were fine
Took wider entries into a few specific corners
Kept the speed sub 90mph on that straight
Braking points were way early to ensure comfortable entry speeds
ect.. ect..

Honestly, you did great and I was having just as much fun as you were.

[ally99]

Originally Posted by choneofakind

Someone who has had to learn the skill themselves is a must. People who are naturally skilled at something are terrible teachers because they don't know how to help. Someone who has had to teach themselves a skill will be a more competent teacher because they already know how to put the skill into thoughts and words

This is true for any kind of teaching.

[Misti]

Originally Posted by csmith12

@Misti - question for you, coach to coach.

How do I get better at seeing/steering issues ahead of time before they turn into rider downs? I thought I was pretty good at it, I was wrong.

I think you are asking about seeing "steering" issues ahead of time...What we look for is multiple steering inputs in a corner (turning the bike too many times), stiff arming on the bike, and especially adding throttle and lean angle at the same time. These are red flags, the last especially so. Anytime I see a rider adding lean and throttle at the same time I'm in front of them in an instant and pulling them off track to talk to them.

Anytime I see anything that makes me nervous, a rider running wide, a big mistake in a corner, a rider not working on the drill, a rider that looks like they are riding beyond their limit or making multiple errors warrants and immediate pull in to bring attention to their mistakes and direct them to how they can solve the problem. When I pull in a student it is quick and direct, "in turn 10 you ran really wide at the exit of the corner and nearly went off track." And then I direct them to the issue that THEY Had that caused the problem. You turned too early, what are you going to do next time around? Turn later....off you go. I don't wait and I always trust my gut. If my gut says they are riding on the edge and about to crash then I pull them in before it happens. I don't catch every single one but I've gotten really good at preventing my students from going down I hope that answered your question!!

Originally Posted by Sirref

flip that around, you want them to follow you first so they can show you what you need to be doing after figuring out what you are doing

As a coach I always sneak up behind my students when they don't know I'm there and watch them for at least a few corners to spot their main issues and then I get in front to demonstrate what I want them to do...unless I'm leading them right at the start of the session....then I demonstrate what I want them to do, wave them by and make sure they are doing it!

Originally Posted by choneofakind

Someone who has had to learn the skill themselves is a must. People who are naturally skilled at something are terrible teachers because they don't know how to help. Someone who has had to teach themselves a skill will be a more competent teacher because they already know how to put the skill into thoughts and words

I think that someone that is naturally skilled at something can LEARN how to communicate what they are doing even if they didn't really know at first how to break things down. Keith Code has a really effective coach training program that teaches us how to break down techniques in ways that most of us didn't understand at first. I know that when I started racing I was naturally fast and competitive but I literally had NO IDEA What I was doing. Even though I was already counter-steering and picking out reference points I couldn't describe how I was doing it. Through Keith's series of questioning techniques and training manuals I learned how to break down what I was doing and communicate it effectively to my students. Of course there were techniques that I had to learn and it certainly makes it easier to teach if you have had to learn it first yourself but I think naturally talented people can LEARN how to be good coaches with the proper training and understanding of what makes a good instructor.

[csmith12]

Thanks for your time and attention Misti. I am not directly asking about "steering" the bike. It was more of steering or guiding the rider in general. More so in the paddock, than anywhere else. I am not really asking about the "how" part either, it's a given that I know you can't answer that question. Lemme try to ask my question again in a different way. Are there any common clues in the paddock that give away a potential issue before it becomes a bigger problem on track?

My biggest issue as a coach so far is... when there are multiple riders in my paddock area wanting to go out, I need to pick the "right" rider at the "right time", if that makes any sense. Basically in the paddock, I need to make a read on the riders. Since I can't be there for everyone, I will need to defer some riders to another coach if warranted and work one on one with another.

I will be kinda blunt with ya. So far... I have encountered a rider that kept charging corners (almost crashed) no matter what I did unless I was in front of him. And 2 other riders crashed because I "may" have missed the signs of discomfort ahead of time while in the paddock (both were on their own on track at the time).

Now I know we can't prevent every crash, I am just making sure I am not missing the obvious ya know?

[csmith12]

And I can't really complain much (not that I am). I have helped/coached nearly 40 riders their first time at the track. So far... none have crashed on their first, second, third or fourth track day. I guess that is a pretty good record I got going so far.

[ally99]

Originally Posted by csmith12

I did many things while we were out;

Kept the overall pace well in check, but smooth throughout
Kept riders from piling up behind us by waving them around
Altered the lines to make them more "streetish" but not intersect with others
Pointed out the apexes
Spent a whole lot of time facing backward to ensure you were fine
Took wider entries into a few specific corners
Kept the speed sub 90mph on that straight
Braking points were way early to ensure comfortable entry speeds
ect.. ect..

Honestly, you did great and I was having just as much fun as you were.

Originally Posted by csmith12

And I can't really complain much (not that I am). I have helped/coached nearly 40 riders their first time at the track. So far... none have crashed on their first, second, third or fourth track day. I guess that is a pretty good record I got going so far.

Some of the responsibility lies with the student who should voice her thoughts. Even the best coach can't be a mind reader. You're awesome, Chris! I've wished time after time I had followed you while you showed a brand new track bud around...I considered it as a fleeting thought, but didn't realize just how "off" I was until way too late.

[csmith12]

"To be able to control it. To know that I can control something that's out of control." - guess the movie.

[choneofakind]

Originally Posted by csmith12

And I can't really complain much (not that I am). I have helped/coached nearly 40 riders their first time at the track. So far... none have crashed on their first, second, third or fourth track day. I guess that is a pretty good record I got going so far.

Mine was the forth day.

[csmith12]

Originally Posted by choneofakind

Mine was the forth day.

[Sirref]

Originally Posted by choneofakind

Mine was the forth day.

man, why you gotta be such a buzzkill you should do more track days.

I just realized, I'm on a roll. 5 days without an incident

[csmith12]

Originally Posted by Sirref

I just realized, I'm on a roll. 5 days without an incident

Only about 50 or so more to catch up with me. But glad you're off to a good start.

[ally99]

Playing for the lowest score (like golf), I win.

[Sirref]

Originally Posted by ally99

Playing for the lowest score (like golf), I win.

going off of street I have 4 street incidents in 15-20k miles so I think I lose to you very badly.