emissions question

[joyinc]

Hi all
Where can i find information about the emissions from the 2010 ninja?

I'm riding my bike in this local vegan event, and some people are opposing the idea because it's not "environmental" to ride a motorcycle... but i think it can be... i started on a cbr125 and i've read that it has lower emissions then most cars which is awesome, but i dont know much about the ninja.

The parade thing is supposed to show that vegans come from all walks of life, but I'd like to be a little more educated about it in case someone asks me

[GeneJunkie]

Only thing I could find were the EPA regulations for motorcycles. The Kawi website says that the 2010 Ninja250 meets the strict EPA emission standards so I figured at worst these are the emissions:

http://www.epa.gov/otaq/standards/li...otorcycles.htm

I live in California so we have stricter regulations on pretty much everything (sigh... I can't even begin to tell you how annoying it is). The EPA's 2010 regulations are actually following the California law that was implemented in 2008.

http://www.arb.ca.gov/msprog/motcycle/ONRDMC.HTM

Hope this helps.

[joyinc]

it does! thank you!

hopefully i can compare the emissions to some cars. I'm getting a lot of messages from people who dont think bikes should be in that kind of parade because of emissions, but i think thats a great reason to include them! (well maybe not those big big bikes, but you know what i mean)

[CZroe]

I've seen studies blasting motorcycles for their emissions per gallon but what they need to look at is emissions per mile.

[Greg_E]

Motorcycles that do not have catalytic converters are inherently more dirty than most modern cars. If the 2010 model has a cat, then it would be considered a high mpg vehicle with a relatively clean exhaust.

[joyinc]

Originally Posted by Greg_E

Motorcycles that do not have catalytic converters are inherently more dirty than most modern cars. If the 2010 model has a cat, then it would be considered a high mpg vehicle with a relatively clean exhaust.

ummmm i know a little about bikes.... but...

how do i know if it has that?

[kkim]

Originally Posted by joyinc

ummmm i know a little about bikes.... but...

how do i know if it has that?

it does if your exhaust system is still stock.

[joyinc]

it is! yey! so does that mean it gives out less emissions then most cars?

and seeing as how i was just debating on getting an aftermarket exhaust, does that also mean that those loud ones are worse for emissions?

wow... i cant believe i'm such a noobie. it's funny my non riding buddies think i know bikes really well just because i can change the oil! lol

[kkim]

I don't have numbers on emissions output.

the stock exhaust system has 2 cats... one in the headpipe and one in the muffler can.

even if you just do a slip on, you are getting rid of one of the 2 cats which will raise emissions levels.

learning is a never ending process, which is part of the fun.

[joyinc]

thanks so much! It makes me happy knowing the bike isnt as bad for the environment as others I gotta admit, i'd probably ride it anyhow, but it's nice to know

[kkim]

yep, ride the bike and have fun. if they kick you out of the parade, find yourself a better class of vegans to hang out with.

[Sailariel]

Joyce, I left the exhaust alone on my 08 for that very reason---guess I am a closet tree hugger.

[ScraitT]

It would be nice if someone made an aftermarket exhaust that had a cat in it. My main dislike on the factory exhaust is the look...it's the only chrome piece on the bike.

As someone mentioned earlier, make sure you look and compare emissions per mile. Even if a car has lower emissions per gallon, if it is only getting 20 miles per gallon while the 250 is getting 60, then the car will use 3x the amount of gas, so it's emissions in comparison are 3x higher when comparing to the 250.

[ScraitT]

Another thing I read while looking up a little on this is the following...


"Bikes have different emission standards than cars and trucks.
True, but there are standards.
I think the main thing people forget about this is volume.
Emissions are measured in PPM, parts per million.
That means for a sample of a certain size, say a liter, how many parts of that sample are pollutants?
If you have a 3.0 liter car engine running at 3000rpm, your total exhaust volume is 3 times that of a 500cc bike engine at 6000rpm. So even if the PPM emissions of the 500cc are twice that of the 3.0L, the total emissions are less."


Since the ninja is only a 250, I can't see it putting out any large amount of emissions.

[joyinc]

Originally Posted by kkim

yep, ride the bike and have fun. if they kick you out of the parade, find yourself a better class of vegans to hang out with.

My thoughts exactly. The people organizing the event think its a great idea, and our little vegan biker group is welcome It seems to just be a few elitists that dont want us there.

It's cool thou, the parade isnt about the environment, if it were i would understand that they wouldnt want us there... but its about vegetarians, and showing how diverse we are i think it's an awesome idea

Originally Posted by Sailariel

Joyce, I left the exhaust alone on my 08 for that very reason---guess I am a closet tree hugger.

i think i'm going to do the same

Originally Posted by ScraitT

It would be nice if someone made an aftermarket exhaust that had a cat in it. My main dislike on the factory exhaust is the look...it's the only chrome piece on the bike.

As someone mentioned earlier, make sure you look and compare emissions per mile. Even if a car has lower emissions per gallon, if it is only getting 20 miles per gallon while the 250 is getting 60, then the car will use 3x the amount of gas, so it's emissions in comparison are 3x higher when comparing to the 250.

good to know! thanks!

[Snake]

Onother very good point about the bike is that it gets very good gas mileage which id good for the environment. The Ninja 250 gets 70mpg. Here is a quote from the site about the catylitic converters: http://www.kawasaki.com/Products/pro...&id=431&scid=6

• 2-into-1 system contributes to the Ninja 250R’s low
• and mid-range torque and smooth, step-free power curve
• Slightly upswept silencer extensively tested to determine chamber size, connecting pipe length and diameter to achieve least noise and most power
• Meets strict emissions with dual catalyzers; one in the collector pipe and the other in the silencer
• Using two catalyzers minimizes the power loss
• Positioning the first catalyzer as close to the exhaust ports maximizes its efficiency as well

[joyinc]

so my car gets 28mpg; so technically, riding the bike instead of the car is better for the planet?

[CZroe]

Originally Posted by Sailariel

Joyce, I left the exhaust alone on my 08 for that very reason---guess I am a closet tree hugger.

Trees love CO2! Making sure it is fully burned is the best way to give 'em what they want.

Originally Posted by joyinc

so my car gets 28mpg; so technically, riding the bike instead of the car is better for the planet?

On a planetary scale: debatable. Better for finite resources and local air quality/health? Unanimously, "yes."

To clarify: ground-level ozone and nitrate particulates (smog) is bad, getting more miles per gallon reduces emissions per mile and improves this... just don't drive more miles like Prius owners have been shown to do or you undo everything! CO2 is debatable.

Keep in mind that there can't be much carpooling. 10 people in two efficient cars is probably going to produce less byproduct per person than 10 people on 10 motorcycles... maybe not more than 10 people on 5 motorcycles, depending on the models of both vehicle types.

[ScraitT]

Originally Posted by CZroe

Keep in mind that there can't be much carpooling. 10 people in two efficient cars is probably going to produce less byproduct per person than 10 people on 10 motorcycles... maybe not more than 10 people on 5 motorcycles, depending on the models of both vehicle types.

What about 10 people on 1 motorcycle like they do in Asia And we all thought they were crazy....they are just being as environmentally friendly as possible!

But yes, CZ is correct, the best way to lower emissions period is to drive less and try walking or biking more.

[Snake]

I would like to give joyinc a big pat on the back because as debatable as it may be at least she is trying to do her small part and be resposible about the environment.

[joyinc]

awww thank you, but i cant take much credit for that! lol

it was the main reason when i bought my cbr 125, but honestly i didnt give it too much thought when i upgraded, i just wanted a faster, safer bike! lol

its just come up now because of that parade and being told basically that i shouldnt participate because there's no way i care about the environment if i'm on a bike... even though i've explained that the bike is better then my car and i have to get to work, but to no avail... there just seems to be a group that demonizes bikers oh well!

i used to ride a bicycle to work 15kms every day, until i was transferred to a place 25kms away, now it's too much.

i'm not gonna lie though, my bicycle hasnt seen much action since i got a motorcycle

[tapdiggy]

Originally Posted by kkim

yep, ride the bike and have fun. if they kick you out of the parade, find yourself a better class of vegans to hang out with.

Kkim's snark hits the nail on the head. I don't like the false notion that if someone chooses a different way to nourish their body, they automatically have to be "green" as well. I know a vegan who can't stand the environmentalist movement in it's current form. He doesn't eat meat, but he loves his V-6 Taurus. I don't mean to oversimplify the lifestyle, but the point is made clear.

[joyinc]

Originally Posted by tapdiggy

Kkim's snark hits the nail on the head. I don't like the false notion that if someone chooses a different way to nourish their body, they automatically have to be "green" as well. I know a vegan who can't stand the environmentalist movement in it's current form. He doesn't eat meat, but he loves his V-6 Taurus. I don't mean to oversimplify the lifestyle, but the point is made clear.

Exactly! I started out being vegan for the animals, and now its for animals, my own health, and the planet... but I totally get that not all vegans do it for the same reason. I've met some that are total health nuts, and I cant imagine that being my only reason. (I dont have that kind of willpower!)

at least the parade committee supports the idea They want to show that vegans are diverse, and this will be just about as diverse as we can get!

[ScraitT]

Wow, that are that against bikes? That's a little overboard.
I mean really if they want to go THAT far, do any of them drive a car or anything? Do they live with electricity?
Even if they drive a pruis, it's still putting out some pollutants...
And unless they live using 100% solar and wind power, then they are getting their electricity from polluting power plants.
If they buy anything from the store, most plastics and other items that are produced in factories produce tons of pollutants to be made.

The list could go on and on if they want to be THAT picky. The fact is, your trying to help in whatever way you can. As you said, a bicycle isn't feasible, but then 250r is almost the next best thing.

The 250r is probably less polluting overall as well when you add in the factor of the pollutants produced to make the vehicle. I've heard electric vehicles and hybrids produce TONS of pollutants to make because of the batteries. How many years do you have to drive a pruis to make up for the pollutants made producing it over the 250?

Another interesting fact I read is that electric vehicles can potentially cause more pollution then an efficient car. If you live on the grid and draw your power from a power plant, the electricity generated to recharge an electric vehicle produces more emissions then a normal gas vehicle.

So if they want to get that picky...my guess is that your 250r, when everything is added together, has produced less emissions in it's life then their cars.

[Snake]

Wow that group that demonizes bikers give vegans a bad name.

[Samer]

Originally Posted by ScraitT

If you live on the grid and draw your power from a power plant, the electricity generated to recharge an electric vehicle produces more emissions then a normal gas vehicle.

That is absolutely not true. I am an Engineer and I work in the power generation business. Modern combined cycle power plants have a thermal efficiency of about 60%. And their emissions restrictions are very strong. On the other hand, a gasoline car efficiency is on the order of 20%. Sorry but electric cars win.

A 250 with the stock exhaust is very green indeed so no worries.

[ScraitT]

Originally Posted by Samer

That is absolutely not true. I am an Engineer and I work in the power generation business. Modern combined cycle power plants have a thermal efficiency of about 60%. And their emissions restrictions are very strong. On the other hand, a gasoline car efficiency is on the order of 20%. Sorry but electric cars win.

How about older plants the have been around for a while? Have they all been brought up to standards, or are there still plants out there that are very inefficient in todays standards?
It's just something I read somewhere. Wasn't sure how true it was.

But regardless, using an electric car does still cause SOME emissions from the generation of the power at the plant...even an efficient plant. (just on the point of people who want to pick on every little thing that causes pollution).

[Samer]

Originally Posted by ScraitT

How about older plants the have been around for a while? Have they all been brought up to standards, or are there still plants out there that are very inefficient in todays standards?
It's just something I read somewhere. Wasn't sure how true it was.

But regardless, using an electric car does still cause SOME emissions from the generation of the power at the plant...even an efficient plant. (just on the point of people who want to pick on every little thing that causes pollution).

The worst polluters are old coal plants. I don't know how efficient they are, probably in the 35% range. However, they aren't building many of them any more. And more than likely they will either be shut down or retrofitted with carbon capture and storage technology. There will be a lot of growth in Nuclear and Natural gas combined cycle plants. So hopefully cars like Chevy Volt will be successful commercially. True it isn't usually carbon neutral to drive an electric car, but due to economies of scale and the fact that electric motors are very efficient, it is certainly better for the environment. It's not all-or-nothing. Moderation is a good thing

[joyinc]

Originally Posted by Snake

Wow that group that demonizes bikers give vegans a bad name.

Very true. some of them are picky.. and thats ok, but i think if anyone wants to make a point (not just vegans) compassion and understanding go much farther then judgement.

i've come to meet many angry vegans, and its quite sad. even those who honestly want to educate people about factory farming wont do any good by being angry or judgemental. i know many vegans and no one has ever told me that they changed to veganism because of someone lecturing them.

i cant wait to ride in the parade i wanna decorate my bike somehow veganish or environmental stuff lol
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[Scott1620]

I attempted to compare my car emissions to my motorcycle, but I dont know much about the terminology and the tests didn't seem to match up. Here is a decent article about motorcycle emissions written recently.

From here I got the ninja 250r emissions numbers (2008), not sure how to compare them to anything though... I saved a spreadsheet to google docs with the info here if anybody wants to take a look...

[Hadyn]

Glad the parade committee is at least on your side!
Honestly I'd be more worried about getting bored riding at parade speeds than backlash from some angry vegans.
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[patw]

Originally Posted by joyinc

i've come to meet many angry vegans, and its quite sad.
Posted via Mobile Device

Same here I am formerly vegan (diet not lifestyle, and for 3 years so not a weekend poser), but I took way too much flak for not being hard-core enough that I just stopped associating with them. Even the world Vegan tends to bring up a significant amount of animosity, probably thanks to these same types doing their angry preaching thing to the non-veggies. I'm still vegetarian, but I rarely use the term.

It was the same with the environmental folks (you're doing your part, but are you really doing... enough?), and the open source crowd (You should re-install that Apple laptop with Ubuntu... wait not Ubuntu because 10 years ago they allowed a binary only driver in the kernel, they're blacklisted for life!!). Extremists are found everywhere, and they're not worth wasting time on. Angry people are typically unhappy people

[KJohnson21]

The other pollution factor for electric vehicles are the batteries after end-of-life. I'm not sure exactly what types are being used, but aren't they highly toxic? Is there supposed to be a "Green" plan for getting rid of them?

[Scott1620]

Originally Posted by KJohnson21

The other pollution factor for electric vehicles are the batteries after end-of-life. I'm not sure exactly what types are being used, but aren't they highly toxic? Is there supposed to be a "Green" plan for getting rid of them?

Yes, the batteries can either be used by power company's for grid balancing or recycled at end of life. Tesla motors already has a plan in place for recycling their batteries, and I am sure others will have plans in place when they release their vehicles.

[joyinc]

thanks so much to all of you for all the support! it means alot!

[Snake]

This Ninjette family is likes to support it's members.

[ScraitT]

Since we were talking about EV verse Gas and power plant efficiency earlier in this thread, I thought I'd post this. I came across this reading AutoBlog this morning. This is just what I read from the site, NOT my ideas, just adding discussion to the topic

Autoblog Green

Originally Posted by AutoBlog

We've heard many reports before regarding just how much impact electric vehicles (EVs) will have on the environment. Some claim a profound reduction of this while others suggest an increase of that. Of course, it's all speculation for now because it's hard to determine the EVs' actual impact until they take to the streets and long-term studies can be conducted.

Resch said automakers should instead focus on increasing efficiency of combustion engines rather than electric cars. Resch suggests that EVs pollute the environment a lot more than expected due to the extensive use of coal to generate electricity.

That's NOT the entire article, just the interesting points, and it does say COAL, not modern plants. This is mainly from Europe though, so coal might be more of their power source there.

In the reader replies....

Originally Posted by AB Reader Replies

Coal power plants operate at an average of 31% efficiency.
The grid operates at ~90% efficiency.
Battery charging operates at ~90% efficiency.
Battery discharge operates at ~90% efficiency.
The EV inverters and drivetrain etc. operates at ~90% efficiency.

.31 x .9 x .9 x .9 x .9 x .9 = 20% efficiency.

Most modern Internal Combustion Engines have an efficiency of 25-30% making them more efficient then an EV running on a coal plant.

Again, that assumes all the above numbers are correct. Thats using a coal plant opposed to a more modern for of energy. Thats using current battery tech, which with time should improve to 95-98% efficiency for charge and discharge. And thats also assuming a modern Combustion engine getting 30% efficiency.
Over the years I'm sure EV technology will continue to grow more efficient.

Also, one of the AB readers posted a link
http://www.euractiv.com/en/energy/an...article-154672
Talks about Coal power effieincy.

[Scott1620]

Originally Posted by ScraitT

Most modern Internal Combustion Engines have an efficiency of 25-30% making them more efficient then an EV running on a coal plant.

I see your a fellow ABG reader , This electricity only coming from an old coal plant argument is not going to be the case though. On average the US gets about 48% of its electricity from coal. If your curious where the electric comes from in your area go here.

Any form of transportation will have an impact whether electric or not but IMO EVs are the cleaner way to go. Electricity can be generated in a variety of ways which makes it a great way to power transportation without being tied to oil prices, companys, and regions. When battery tech and charging infrastructure improves EVs will be just a practical as gas cars IMO.

[karlosdajackal]

Bikes are not green, sure the mpg is better than your average gas guzzler car, but the crap that comes out the pipe has higher levels of the bad stuff in it. So less comes out but what comes out is worse.

In Europe new Bikes for sale have to pass emissions test that are pretty much the same ones cars had to pass...... only 10 years behind. So if you thing about how much C02 is allowed to come out of a new car today, and how much was allowed 10 years ago..... off the top of my head I think its roughly double. Bearing in mind my 5 year old average European car can easily do 42mpg and the ninja on the same roads can do 60mpg.

EV's are not green. Even if the powerplant stuff was all sorted all the mining, production and shipping just to make the batteries puts then in the worse than you think bucket. Its been proven that the batteries alone for a prius have huge enviromental impact from the mine to the showroom floor.

The BBC had a great show a few years back with Prof Brian Cox, and they basically came to the conclusion, if you completely stopped using fosil fuels today and
1. cut every-bodies power usage in half
2. built all the wind/solar/hydro the planet had capacity for overnight
3. built all the other green power source (wood burners, hydrogen producing algae, etc) overnight
4. Opened 10 new nuclear power reactors each and every week worldwide for the foreseeable future.

You would still not have enough power to make up what we get out of fossil fuels.

Anyway, whats environmental is all relevant, volcano's produce more CO2 than all the factories and cars in the world combined. I don't see anybody making CO2 filters collectors on top of volcano's. Must be because they can't tax them

[ScraitT]

Wow, interesting link. I honestly didn't know my area used so much coal. It shows my region as Florida though, it doesn't break it down to S Florida or by county, so I'm wondering is the coal power is more on the north and west parts of Florida.

I only say that because Turkey point isn't very far away. Nuclear power
I have a friend working down at Turkey point right now...has to get tested every day for radiation exposure.