Are clutchless shifts harsh on the bike?

[snowbandit]

I've played around with clutchless shifting, up and down. The clutchless up/downshifts are smooth, tho i do feel an extra "tick" of the gear finding it's spot. I've heard this isn't bad for sequential gearboxes. I've also heard that it's harsh not only on the gearbox but potentially on the engine.


I read the active thread on KawiNinja300, but it doesn't seem to be conclusive yet. Any educated views on this?

[Motofool]

Andrew,

Racers do it, because they want to save as much time as possible.
Many state that, if done properly, no damage is induced, up or down (down requires some throttle blip).

For regular riding, I would never shift without using the clutch, since I don't see any advantage on not disengaging the engine and the transmission for that procedure.

http://www.ninjette.org/forums/showt...ght=clutchless

The mechanism that moves the transmission dogs can be damaged by putting excessive pressure (pre-load) on the lever before the shift happens.

This article explains why:

http://www.gadgetjq.com/transmission.htm

[shovit]

Are you doing it right?

Clutchless upshifting = Close throttle to unload the tranny and at the same time shift up.
Clutchless downshifting = Blip the throttle to unload the tranny and at the same time shift down.

If you hear any kind if grinding noise, you are doing damage.

[snowbandit]

Originally Posted by shovit

Are you doing it right?

Clutchless upshifting = Close throttle to unload the tranny and at the same time shift up.
Clutchless downshifting = Blip the throttle to unload the tranny and at the same time shift down.

If you hear any kind if grinding noise, you are doing damage.

that's what i'm doing. There's no grinding.

[ally99]

Originally Posted by snowbandit

I've played around with clutchless shifting, up and down. The clutchless up/downshifts are smooth, tho i do feel an extra "tick" of the gear finding it's spot. I've heard this isn't bad for sequential gearboxes. I've also heard that it's harsh not only on the gearbox but potentially on the engine.


I read the active thread on KawiNinja300, but it doesn't seem to be conclusive yet. Any educated views on this?

Experience has proven to me that clutchless upshifting (when done correctly) has no mal effect on the bike. Clutchless downshifting is a bit harsher. I only do that if I'm riding a bit aggressively and needing to pass someone quickly. I clutchless upshift about 80% of the time and it's smooth as glass. If your bike feels smooth and you barely even notice the gear change, you're doing it right.

[snowbandit]

Originally Posted by ally99

Experience has proven to me that clutchless upshifting (when done correctly) has no mal effect on the bike. Clutchless downshifting is a bit harsher. I only do that if I'm riding a bit aggressively and needing to pass someone quickly. I clutchless upshift about 80% of the time and it's smooth as glass. If your bike feels smooth and you barely even notice the gear change, you're doing it right.

so you would recommend against frequent clutchless downshifting?

[rojoracing53]

I don't know about the 300 but the 250 trans isn't exactly cutting edge quality so even smooth clutchless shifts seem clunky when compared to the Superbikes I used to race. Because of this I only clutchless shift if I'm racing wether it be on or off the track.

If done perfect every time you may not damage anything in the long run, if done wrong your always going to be causing damage and you'll pay for it in the long run.

[rojoracing53]

[ally99]

Originally Posted by snowbandit

so you would recommend against frequent clutchless downshifting?

Personally, yes, because it is harder to nail right every time. Besides, what's the point really, in most cases? Clutchless upshifting, however, is part of every ride for me. It's the closest I can get to having a quickshifter on my 250!

Originally Posted by rojoracing53

I don't know about the 300 but the 250 trans isn't exactly cutting edge quality so even smooth clutchless shifts seem clunky when compared to the Superbikes I used to race. Because of this I only clutchless shift if I'm racing wether it be on or off the track.

Doesn't the 300 have a slipper clutch? I bet it's smoother, but I haven't ridden one yet, so I really don't know what the hell I'm talking about.

Originally Posted by rojoracing53

You just make me lol for real! Hell yeah!

[rojoracing53]

A slipper clutch doesn't suddenly fix your sloppy transmission so please stop saying "oh but it has a slipper clutch" it's just killing me inside

Now that's not to say that when Kawi updated the clutch they may have also fixed the trany a bit but I don't know since I don't own a 300. So Yamaha trans are great and smooth and some just suck its the same for everyone.

[snowbandit]

Originally Posted by ally99

Doesn't the 300 have a slipper clutch? I bet it's smoother, but I haven't ridden one yet, so I really don't know what the hell I'm talking about.

This is my first street bike, so it may not be fair, but compared to every dirtbike I've ever used, the tranny is a dream. Smooth and soft all the way.

[Motofool]

Originally Posted by snowbandit

This is my first street bike, so it may not be fair, but compared to every dirtbike I've ever used, the tranny is a dream. Smooth and soft all the way.

Keep it like that, ............using the clutch

Yes, as Rojo explains above, the slipper clutch is just a safety feature for not locking the rear tire while downshifting aggressively.
It is there to save the rider from a fall due to operational error, not to mask repetitive errors.

[CycleCam303]

Originally Posted by snowbandit

This is my first street bike, so it may not be fair, but compared to every dirtbike I've ever used, the tranny is a dream. Smooth and soft all the way.

LMAO, the dirt bikes you rode must've needed help, or the tranny was already going.

I don't actually like using clutchless upshifts on the ninjettes. Aside from the clunk king tranny, the stock throttle tube has too long of a throw to get consistently smooth shifts since I never seem to be able to totally get off the throttle and shift is extra harsh on the drivetrain.

[CycleCam303]

Originally Posted by rojoracing53

I don't always ride on bicycle trails...

LOL

Someone please start a poll: Have you ran from the police on your ninjette?

Advice... .............don't even think about it........... it's much scarier than you can imagine......

[old3]

The 300 box is better shifting than my son's 2012 250. It has a tighter, more precise feel at the lever. The clutch doesn't make a difference IMO, the clutchless ups are just as good without it.

[80MPHdownhill]

Originally Posted by CycleCam303

Someone please start a poll: Have you ran from the police on your ninjette?

I did, I even had a head start, but he caught up to me.

That guy could run a lot faster than I thought!

[Live2ride]

The clutch is there for a reason.

[alex.s]

here is my view on the subject:

if WOT, clutchless upshift.
all else, clutch.

[Dark]

I posted similar information in another ninja 300 forum but I guess I hurt too many feelings there

It's an arguable subject for many an not all will see eye to eye, it is what it is.

Upshifts have been done for ages and there's really no issue given you're not jamming the gear in to place (potentially bending/breaking a fork, chewing up the dogs, or damaging the shift selector).

Downshifts are a different story, they have been practiced for years but with more notable issues and transmission failure stories.

Can you get away with both, if done properly, and probably never notice an issue? It's likely.

Do you risk a catastrophic failure (something as small as a broken gear tooth coming between two gears) more so than if you were to use the clutch? Yes.

Is there a benefit to clutchless downshifting on the street? No.

[Xtina]

Oh gawd, not this argument again.

[snowbandit]

Upshifts are legit. Down shifts are pointless and more potentially destructive.
Sums it up?

[Xtina]

Originally Posted by snowbandit

Upshifts are legit. Down shifts are pointless and more potentially destructive.
Sums it up?

Thank you. Need more people like you on the 300 forum

[Motofool]

Originally Posted by Dark

.........Do you risk a catastrophic failure (something as small as a broken gear tooth coming between two gears) more so than if you were to use the clutch? Yes.

Normally, after some time of repetitive sloppy shifting (with or without clutch), sharp corners go round and perpendicular surfaces develop an angle that spits the gears, ...........but a gear or dog tooth failure is not impossible, I guess.

[Alex]

We have a long poll thread about shifting habits here:

Upshifting - clutch or clutchless?

Some good discussion in there about why people choose to shift the way they do, and some of the potential ramifications.

[Dark]

Originally Posted by Xtina

Oh gawd, not this argument again.

Jeff enjoyed my comments so much that he banned my account. I won't miss their thin skin over there.

[Dark]

Originally Posted by Motofool

Normally, after some time of repetitive sloppy shifting (with or without clutch), sharp corners go round and perpendicular surfaces develop an angle that spits the gears, ...........but a gear or dog tooth failure is not impossible, I guess.

Agreed, but at least with the clutch pulled you lose the rotational force of the engine against the gearbox. Playing heavy foot and jamming each gear in wont help the individual regardless.

[Xtina]

Originally Posted by Dark

Jeff enjoyed my comments so much that he banned my account. I won't miss their thin skin over there.

Really?! Heaven forbid you voice your opinion politely.

[dfox]

Originally Posted by alex.s

here is my view on the subject:

if WOT, clutchless upshift.
all else, clutch.

[alex.s]

Originally Posted by Motofool

Normally, after some time of repetitive sloppy shifting (with or without clutch), sharp corners go round and perpendicular surfaces develop an angle that spits the gears, ...........but a gear or dog tooth failure is not impossible, I guess.

the weak point is the outer bearings. it will destroy the bearings holding the shaft in place before it destroys the gears themself. those gears are extremely high strength. but the ball bearings in the roller bearing on the ends of the shaft are seriously low quality steel comparatively.

[ally99]

I've noticed if riding 2-up, clutchless is a lot smoother on the passenger. Then again, I have limited experience with anyone on back so feel free to tell me how wrong I am, but I used to ride on back a lot and it was the same. If the driver was using the clutch, I'd bang helmets with him sometimes.

[snowbandit]

Originally Posted by ally99

I've noticed if riding 2-up, clutchless is a lot smoother on the passenger. Then again, I have limited experience with anyone on back so feel free to tell me how wrong I am, but I used to ride on back a lot and it was the same.

Totally, that's when i started using it. I wanted my girl to feel safe on the back, and clutchless shifting was pretty slick feeling.

[csmith12]

Originally Posted by ally99

I've noticed if riding 2-up, clutchless is a lot smoother on the passenger. Then again, I have limited experience with anyone on back so feel free to tell me how wrong I am, but I used to ride on back a lot and it was the same. If the driver was using the clutch, I'd bang helmets with him sometimes.

Not right or wrong, up to the individual rider/passenger combo. Some days I use the clutch to keep it ultra smooth, other days I am lazy and just bang an upshift. While it's still pretty smooth, if I am aggressive with the throttle it's not as smooth as with the clutch.

On a side note, I nearly never clutchless shift in the wet.

And to the OP... I have more track miles on my bike than street miles. Nearly all those miles are clutchless and WOT. Is it harder on the bike, I am sure it is. Does it matter? Most likely not.

[snowbandit]

Originally Posted by csmith12

And to the OP... I have more track miles on my bike than street miles. Nearly all those miles are clutchless and WOT. Is it harder on the bike, I am sure it is. Does it matter? Most likely not.

Woah man. That's quite the accomplishment actually haha. I don't live anywhere near a track.

I read a post of a fellow that pulled his clutch in a turn, lost momentum, and dropped his bike. It seems that clutchless would've saved him there, ya?

[rojoracing53]

Originally Posted by snowbandit

Woah man. That's quite the accomplishment actually haha. I don't live anywhere near a track.

I read a post of a fellow that pulled his clutch in a turn, lost momentum, and dropped his bike. It seems that clutchless would've saved him there, ya?

I'm kinda thinking that if said rider crashed because pulled in the clutch and probably lost momentum, the only thing that would have save him was not getting on a motorcycle

[csmith12]

Originally Posted by snowbandit

Woah man. That's quite the accomplishment actually haha. I don't live anywhere near a track.

I read a post of a fellow that pulled his clutch in a turn, lost momentum, and dropped his bike. It seems that clutchless would've saved him there, ya?

lol, if your pulling the clutch midcorner, your not following throttle control rule #1 are we now.... Also, in general one should avoid shifting mid-corner as well. You can get away with it sometimes but yea, if your gunna shift midcorner, then get it done quickly, preferably clutchless and then back on the gas.

[250rr]

Interesting discussion! Learning a lot. Thanks!

[adouglas]

My rule of thumb: The smoother things are, the less stress there is on any machine.

Not that it has anything to do with the Ninjette, but I found to my surprise that clutchless shifting on my GSXR is VERY smooth and easy... in fact, it's a lot smoother than using the clutch (and no, I'm not hitting the slipper -- at least I don't think so). Just think about the shift (with the appropriate throttle manipulation, of course) and it snicks right into gear, no muss no fuss.

Compare this to pulling in the clutch and getting that little lurch when you let it out. That seems to me that it's stressing the drivetrain more. For me, clutchless seems smoother.

It was harder to do perfectly smoothly on the Ninjette.

[Racer x]

Check out this video on YouTube:<br/><br/>http://youtu.be/vnpC98eXno4

[alex.s]

you can be perfect using both methods. one is easier to **** up.

[adouglas]

True, dat.