Remove or disable the slipper clutch?

[toEleven]

I have a weird and longstanding apprehension about asking, but I'm very curious: can the slipper clutch in the Ninja 300 be disabled or replaced with a non-slipper version? If so (as I imagine to be the case), what would that procedure entail?

We can have a long discussion about why I'd want to...perhaps in another thread...but that doesn't actually address the question at hand.

[LittleRedNinjette]

You can ship it to me if you take it out. I want to try to put one in my pregen.

[Alex]

Not sure. As I understand it, it's not a traditional slipper; it's a full system that has slip capability, along with easy clutch pull as an additional feature.

http://www.kawasaki.eu/en/about_kawa...BZXVlbWVteUVla

[alex.s]

its a self servo hook and ball slipper.

i'm going to ask the question here, not another thread. why would anyone ever want it gone?

[allanoue]

I gone guess> Trying to learn to bleep and not getting feedback to know if doing it right?

[RacinNinja]

You have to replace the entire assembly.

[toEleven]

Originally Posted by RacinNinja

You have to replace the entire assembly.

Any idea if the 250's assembly would work? I'm sure I'm skipping lots of important detail, but I'm not under the impression that the two engines are massively different.

[RacinNinja]

Originally Posted by toEleven

Any idea if the 250's assembly would work? I'm sure I'm skipping lots of important detail, but I'm not under the impression that the two engines are massively different.

It LOOKS like the gear drive off the back for the oil pump is the same, which would lead one to think the baskets and other parts could be swapped. I need to do some part number digging to confirm.

[alex.s]

again... why?

[LittleRedNinjette]

I actually have a newgen assembly...

[alex.s]

Originally Posted by toEleven

Any idea if the 250's assembly would work? I'm sure I'm skipping lots of important detail, but I'm not under the impression that the two engines are massively different.

the way a ramp type slipper works basically is theres two halves of the clutch hub with a slant so if hold one side and rotate the other, the two halves separate. when you rotate the other way the pull each other together (until it gets to the end and gets 'locked' in) so you could easily disable the slipping mechanism by bonding the two halves together in the locked position.


but really....


why?

[toEleven]

Originally Posted by alex.s

the way a ramp type slipper works basically is theres two halves of the clutch hub with a slant so if hold one side and rotate the other, the two halves separate. when you rotate the other way the pull each other together (until it gets to the end and gets 'locked' in) so you could easily disable the slipping mechanism by bonding the two halves together in the locked position.

Yes, that does sound quite a bit like what the service manual describes and depicts (screen attached).

Bonding the halves together does sound like a solution, though not a tremendously appealing one at first glance.

[rojoracing53]

Originally Posted by alex.s

the way a ramp type slipper works basically is theres two halves of the clutch hub with a slant so if hold one side and rotate the other, the two halves separate. when you rotate the other way the pull each other together (until it gets to the end and gets 'locked' in) so you could easily disable the slipping mechanism by bonding the two halves together in the locked position.


but really....


why?

If you really have to ask why then you'll never understand

[alex.s]

Originally Posted by rojoracing53

If you really have to ask why then you'll never understand

i've never used a slipper clutch so i donno why people hate it so much

[toEleven]

You may never understand as was suggested but Rojoracing53's thread - Brake, throttle and clutch control skills covers it quite well. Choice excerpt (which you should read in its original context so it conveys what the author intended):

This is basically a like a slipper clutch with infinite on the fly adjustability.

I did not - and still don't - want to turn this thread into a technique discussion or a winding back and forth about rider preference. Doing so clutters a 'technical' thread with zero benefit. I've seen my share of discussions about blipping v slipping; they're consistently on par with theological or political debates.

[Mohawk]

The new gen 250's parts hsould fit. I replaced a pre-gen clutch with a new gen one.

[mgentz]

Originally Posted by toEleven

You may never understand as was suggested but Rojoracing53's thread - Brake, throttle and clutch control skills covers it quite well. Choice excerpt (which you should read in its original context so it conveys what the author intended):

I did not - and still don't - want to turn this thread into a technique discussion or a winding back and forth about rider preference. Doing so clutters a 'technical' thread with zero benefit. I've seen my share of discussions about blipping v slipping; they're consistently on par with theological or political debates.

Just as an FYI, I was just at a MotoAmerica (formerly AMA) race, and none of those guys blip anymore. Neither did the Ktm racers....

For more information on this, why dont you check out @cuong_nutz thread on the 250 v 300 engine

[rojoracing53]

Originally Posted by mgentz

Just as an FYI, I was just at a MotoAmerica (formerly AMA) race, and none of those guys blip anymore. Neither did the Ktm racers....

For more information on this, why dont you check out @cuong_nutz thread on the 250 v 300 engine

I don't recall hearing any pro level racer blipping the throttle. We tend to only blip enough just to raise the rpms enough for a smooth transition of gears. When you hear someone blipping the throttle so much that it sounds like noticeable blip for each shift then they are wasting time.

The superbikes and maybe the 600 classes of today use speed shifts on both up and down shifts which require you to not blip the throttle and just shift letting the electronics do all the work. Any extra rider input only confuses the system.

[mgentz]

Originally Posted by rojoracing53

I don't recall hearing any pro level racer blipping the throttle. We tend to only blip enough just to raise the rpms enough for a smooth transition of gears. When you hear someone blipping the throttle so much that it sounds like noticeable blip for each shift then they are wasting time.

The superbikes and maybe the 600 classes of today use speed shifts on both up and down shifts which require you to not blip the throttle and just shift letting the electronics do all the work. Any extra rider input only confuses the system.

When I attended races 8 years ago, the blipping was more pronounced. But you're right, it was only a slight "blip" and even so, it has seemed to disappear over the years. Today, the electronics do all the work, but that is also why I mentioned the KTM's, as there are no electronics for this on those bikes. Even slight blips were not really heard. Instead, those riders were letting the slipper do much of the work. Including one guy that just couldn't get it right and each time he came into the kink at Road America he would be jouncing, and skipping the rear tire. This was probably his technique, but it could have also been that his decel spring was too much and did not allow for enough slip.

[CycleCam303]

Over the past year, I don't blip anymore. None of the fast guys do it. And it doesn't matter slipper clutch or not. I use the clutch to steer the bike into a corner.

Blipping takes away ever so slightly from braking force. Instead of blipping I just know how many gears I'm going to downshift. Get on the front brake and then get into the gear j want and slowly let out the clutch. If I want to rotate the bike I use the clutch to slide the rear at a shallow angle.

Like rojo said, it just wastes time.

[mgentz]

Originally Posted by CycleCam303

Over the past year, I don't blip anymore. None of the fast guys do it. And it doesn't matter slipper clutch or not. I use the clutch to steer the bike into a corner.

Blipping takes away ever so slightly from braking force. Instead of blipping I just know how many gears I'm going to downshift. Get on the front brake and then get into the gear j want and slowly let out the clutch. If I want to rotate the bike I use the clutch to slide the rear at a shallow angle.

Like rojo said, it just wastes time.

You just confirmed what I said. No more blipping, just clutch use. Tuning of the slipper for the perfect amount of engine breaking only.

[toEleven]

Originally Posted by mgentz

For more information on this, why dont you check out @cuong_nutz thread on the 250 v 300 engine

You mean this thread: Comparing the 250 and 300 motor/engine (picture intense)
Thanks for the pointer! Link added so other visitors don't have to search. That's a really excellent thread.
edit: There's a second version of Cuong's thread here with more recent updates, and more clutch related info. Apparently that's the only part they didn't have available

Originally Posted by mgentz

You just confirmed what I said. No more blipping, just clutch use. Tuning of the slipper for the perfect amount of engine breaking only.

Emphasis added. My limited understanding led me to believe the 300's slipper isn't tunable. If I can't adjust it to suit me preferences, I'd rather not have it at all. Thus this thread.

[mgentz]

Originally Posted by toEleven

You mean this thread: Comparing the 250 and 300 motor/engine (picture intense)
Thanks for the pointer! Link added so other visitors don't have to search. That's a really excellent thread.

Emphasis added. My limited understanding led me to believe the 300's slipper isn't tunable. If I can't adjust it to suit me preferences, I'd rather not have it at all. Thus this thread.

Yes. I meant that thread. Thanks for linking it!

I have to admit that I have not studied the 300 slipper, but there is really NO way to tune it? Slippers are awesome if tuned right, but to rojo's point, somewhat useless for our bikes.

[toEleven]

I don't think it's tunable, but I don't know. I'm at the bottom of the mechanical knowledge totem pole here.

[RacinNinja]

It's not tuneable. It's a very basic ramp style slipper.

Well, it's not tuneable YET. Replacement of different strength clutch springs could potentially tune it but not to the same degree as other slipper designs.