Brake, throttle and clutch control skills

[rojoracing53]

I'm going to post this here until Alex comes up with a better place for it. He's its a video but its also in response to questions about riding skills so I guess it could go in ether.

In response to my videos from Laguna Seca awhile back someone had asked how I was able to downshift so quickly, blip throttle and hard brake so late without the bike getting outa shape. So here are the videos I got from the weekend on the right and left side handlebars. This video will also show my use of the clutch as a rear brake. First part is throttle, second parts is clutch. So give it a view and let me know what you think.

Link to original page on YouTube.

[Motofool]

[fr1dayn1ght]

Hm interesting...let me try this today lol
I downshift multiple times while grabbing the clutch all the way and i knew it was wrong >.<

[broken neck]

That is some serious skills...

Just when I was getting ok to downshift while braking...

On a street point of view, that must not be good for the clutch, isn't it?

[CC Cowboy]

So, the first part you try and get the ice tea in that little container to stay level. The second part, I love those Mohammed Ali gloves.

[felo]

skills : you have them

[rojoracing53]

Originally Posted by CC Cowboy

So, the first part you try and get the ice tea in that little container to stay level. The second part, I love those Mohammed Ali gloves.

You know you want a pair

[csmith12]

Originally Posted by broken neck

That is some serious skills...

Just when I was getting ok to downshift while braking...

On a street point of view, that must not be good for the clutch, isn't it?

Nothing wrong with that on the street either as long as your speeds are in check. And no, it's not going to be any harder on the clutch than normal riding would be.

I personally like to be in the proper gear before the turn in point. Especially while on the street. Different strokes for different folks.

Cool stuff Jason!

[broken neck]

Thanks Chris,

I thought that would or could make the clutch slips more than usual and induce some premature wear on the plates.

[rojoracing53]

Originally Posted by broken neck

That is some serious skills...

Just when I was getting ok to downshift while braking...

On a street point of view, that must not be good for the clutch, isn't it?

Ok so this is something I've had a theory on for years, and although it sounds odd, the results all point to one thing. So we all know racing is super hard on the bike and the clutch is no exception. You can only expect to race launch the thing so many times before it starts to not grip anymore. In the higher levels of racing its not uncommon to swap out clutch plates half way through the year or more often if you burn it up prematurely. The old 2006 R1 were notoriously bad when it came to clutch life and the factory team would swap it every weekend while other privateers would go ever three weekends just to be safe. Mine lasted me nearly 2 years before it gave out.

Then there's the fact that I raced a lot of races each weekend and a lot of weekends per year. At least 4 race starts per weekend and around 22 weekends a year. I'm also not babying the starts ether since I pretty much hole shorted ever race entered. I believe the fact that I'm stressing the fiber plates in the opposite direction as you normally do it does something to them. Maybe by stressing them in two directions slowly it keeps them from tearing vs always pulling them in one direction I don't really know but you can't argue with the fact that my clutches last 3-4 times longer then most racers at my level.

I automatically only use as much reverse clutch braking as needed per situation so for normal street riding I don't slip it much if any at all, but for fun canyon rides I believe I do.

This is basically a like a slipper clutch with infinite on the fly adjustability. The only problem is figuring out how to program the computer(the rider) to always control it right every time.

[Christofini]

I don't think I fully understand

What's the difference between keeping the clutch at the engagement point vs letting it out completely in terms of braking? I'd go test it but my bike's getting fixed.

When you mention you let the clutch drag, does that generate extra friction? Correct me if I'm wrong, but I assume it does, as the gear isn't fully engaged hence it isn't spinning at full speed. I've never come across this before.

[broken neck]

Originally Posted by Christofini

What's the difference between keeping the clutch at the engagement point vs letting it out completely in terms of braking? I'd go test it but my bike's getting fixed.

I would say it has to do with the amount of engine braking you want to use to slow down.

If you let it all go at once, you might experience wheel hopping or wheel locking, but if you keep it at engagement point, you can modulate how much braking you want and you'll keep the hopping in check...

Same as slamming the brake or going gradually to prevent mishap.

[rojoracing53]

Originally Posted by Christofini

I don't think I fully understand

What's the difference between keeping the clutch at the engagement point vs letting it out completely in terms of braking? I'd go test it but my bike's getting fixed.

When you mention you let the clutch drag, does that generate extra friction? Correct me if I'm wrong, but I assume it does, as the gear isn't fully engaged hence it isn't spinning at full speed. I've never come across this before.

If you just release the clutch all at once then you apply all the friction force all at once and just like slamming on the brakes it can cause the bike to get out of shape. It was for the reason of reducing that all at once shock when drop the clutch that riders started blipping the throttle, also called rev matching. When you rev match you Engine speed and wheel speed are going the same speed so when you drop the clutch there's no dynamic braking shock and everything is smooth. This trick can be harder to do when hard in the brakes because you have to keep applying brake pressure while keeping a lighter grip on the throttle so you can quickly blip it. Most people aren't very good at this so they invented the slipper clutch do make it dummy proof so the rider can focus on other things like modulation of the rear brake.

First I'll say this clutch technique it not something someone taught me or something I read about in a book, its something I started doing instinctively back when I was racing YSR50's. As I came up through racing I never used the rear brake and no one ever asking me about it or was even aware I didn't use it because I was already adapting to the sport so fast I think they all just let me self learn for the most part. It wasn't until they started bring out the slipper clutches that I learn about what I had be doing all along. First time right a bike with a SC I could get the bike to stop and couldn't figure out why. After talking it over with the team we realized I need the clutch to grip or I needed to learn how to use the rear brake. I tried but I could never get anywhere near the same level of control with the rear brake as I could with the clutch so we opted to disengage the slipper function of the clutch.

So when I don't blip the throttle and pull in the clutch the RPMs start to drop immediately and as I carefully slip the clutch to get the RPMs the match the rear wheel that creates the braking effect. So by not blipping the clutch I'm able to get a larger difference between rpm and wheel speed and give myself more braking force to play with. Another thing I would use on certain tracks was adding an extra upshift(short shift) before going into a decreasing radius or dog leg turn so instead of only going two downshifts and getting 3000RPMs worth of braking I'd be able to downshift three times and get 4500RPMs worth of braking force that I could apply. This extra downshift method is extremely effective going into a right hand turn where you normally wouldn't be able to drag the rear brake because your foot would hit the pavement.

I think I'm starting to talk in circulars here so let me know if this still doesn't make sense.

[rojoracing53]

I type everything I post on my phone and on top of that I only get to it a minute at a time between doing calculations and running my shop. So by the time I get the the second paragraph ice already forgotten what the hell I was talking about. Give it another 30 years when I start going senile then people will really get lost reading my posts

[Gurk]

This is exactly how Jason Pridmore teaches shifting. Excellent post / video!

He says blipping throttle while braking is also correct but very hard to do it perfect without suffering in shifts and/or hard braking. Shifting like in the video, especially shifting RIGHT AFTER you release the throttle (not waiting another 2 secs and then start shifting down) keeps the bike on higher rpms (which is exactly what you're doing with blipping anyway) and prevents rear slide.

[Christofini]

Originally Posted by rojoracing53

I type everything I post on my phone and on top of that I only get to it a minute at a time between doing calculations and running my shop. So by the time I get the the second paragraph ice already forgotten what the hell I was talking about. Give it another 30 years when I start going senile then people will really get lost reading my posts

I don't mind it, I take time writing my posts as I go off on a tangent all the time :P

That makes perfect sense though. I didn't think of it that way. Might need to try it out once my bike's back from the shop. She's still randomly dying during rides. ECU doesn't spit out any error codes either...just slowly dies.

I tend to brake just below my usual corner entry speed then over-rev and kick down a gear. That gets me back up to speed before I lean in. It's worked wonderfully so far although I know it's not the proper technique. When coming to a stop (Spanish highways LOVE placing stop signs / roundabouts just seconds off the exits) I'd let the bike roll in 6th until 2-2,500 RPM then downshift and repeat. Brake if needed but I usually let the bike almost die before kicking down.

I did have 5-year old stock tires for almost 16,000km. Fresh BT45s just got put on as she started dying. Would love to try a little more aggressive riding.

[cuong-nutz]

Should've done a side by side

Either way, a good vid

[Motofool]

Originally Posted by rojoracing53

..........I tried but I could never get anywhere near the same level of control with the rear brake as I could with the clutch so we opted to disengage the slipper function of the clutch.........

The pneumatic braking effect of this technique can be modulated much more precisely and with much less danger of wheel's lock up than the mechanical braking effect that pads offer via foot pressure.

For that reason, it has been recommended for slowing down a bike in extremely slippery conditions.

It is a great video that @Jiggles may want to sync side by side for the enjoyment and learning of all the members and visitors of our site.

[rasta]

I notice you grab the front brake with two fingers. Is that something I should learn for everyday riding, or mainly a track technique?

[Motofool]

Originally Posted by Christofini

........What's the difference between keeping the clutch at the engagement point vs letting it out completely in terms of braking?........

It is the same difference when the power is transferred in the regular way rather than backwards:
Keeping the clutch at the engagement point increases the speed of the rear wheel and bike slowly.
Letting the clutch out suddenly may induce a wheelie.

It is all about inertia.

When you downshift keeping the same engine's rpm, the engine is rotating too slowly respect to the rear wheel for the new transmission rate.
Then, when the clutch engages, the kinetic energy of the bike is transferred to the parts of the engine, which are forced to accelerate against their natural inertia.

Once the engine is up to speed, the braking effect of that inertia disappear and any further braking effect comes from the chocking effect of a closed throttle (if the pilot keeps it closed for added braking).
Any successive downshift re-starts the inertia braking process.

If the clutch is released too soon, the inertia of the engine (higher in this case) may overwhelm the traction of the contact patch, inducing a rear skid.

[rojoracing53]

Sorry you a side by side can't be done exactly because the two side are from seperate sessions, one mount for both angles

[CycleCam303]

@rasta - The four fingers while braking is an msf thing. It's for safety so you can't blip the throttle accidentally. If your msf instructor told you the bull ish story about preventing fingers from being chewed off in a low side crash or that Rossi uses four fingers well to each his own.

Dirt bikes, shorty levers on street bikes, modern motorcycle braking systems, mountain bicycles and road bicycles all suit the two finger braking technique much better. It's also harder to rev match when using four fingers. And on high performance bikes there is a need for finer modulation on the brakes. A ducati 1098 has monobloc brembo brakes up front. I can easily one finger those because they will easily throw the bike up on its nose.

[CycleCam303]

You should dig up a video of the more advanced cool stuff you do with that clutch technique.

At Vegas this guy was totally backing in the r1 into a couple of corners. Using the clutch to apply engine braking in a controlled manner you can be hard on the front brakes and pitch the rear into a controlled slide. Hence backing it in.

[Jiggles]

Originally Posted by Motofool

The pneumatic braking effect of this technique can be modulated much more precisely and with much less danger of wheel's lock up than the mechanical braking effect that pads offer via foot pressure.

For that reason, it has been recommended for slowing down a bike in extremely slippery conditions.

It is a great video that @Jiggles may want to sync side by side for the enjoyment and learning of all the members and visitors of our site.

I'm not sure exactly what you want me to do

[rojoracing53]

Originally Posted by CycleCam303

You should dig up a video of the more advanced cool stuff you do with that clutch technique.

At Vegas this guy was totally backing in the r1 into a couple of corners. Using the clutch to apply engine braking in a controlled manner you can be hard on the front brakes and pitch the rear into a controlled slide. Hence backing it in.

Well I was performing said skill on the 636 in the one session I took it out but for the life of me I couldn't get the ninja to do it. The ninja isn't going fast enough and I think the chassis flexes a bit to much to do much. Although the instructor on the R6 in the video who was drag racing me down the straits said I was backing it in a little into the corkscrew and turn 11. I doubt it looked anything like I do on the R6 but ill take it

[rojoracing53]

Originally Posted by Jiggles

I'm not sure exactly what you want me to do

They want the left and right view on the screen at once so they can see the timing of both hands at once. You could probably match turn 2,and eleven individually for a single clip and sync the two clips off the throttle chop but I think that's going to be hard. My line and lap times are normally within a 1% so its not impossible.

[Panda]

Great video.

It reminded me of this one

Link to original page on YouTube.

[CC Cowboy]

Originally Posted by rasta

I notice you grab the front brake with two fingers. Is that something I should learn for everyday riding, or mainly a track technique?

I only use one finger on the front brake lever. I find it gives me more feel for the front brake (especially for trail braking).

[subxero]

Originally Posted by Jiggles

I'm not sure exactly what you want me to do

take the clips of his throttle control and sync it side by side with the clip of his clutch control so you can see them simultaneously at the same time point as well in the vid.

Edit - N/M i just saw rojo say they are from two different sessions

[CycleCam303]

Originally Posted by CC Cowboy

I only use one finger on the front brake lever. I find it gives me more feel for the front brake (especially for trail braking).

Seriously, how does someone such as yourself find his way to ninjette.org? O wait I spent 2 minutes on gixxer.com and wanted to kill myself too. Congrats on being part of the .1% of gixxxah own3rs that don't suck.

[choneofakind]

CC's a goof, but we're lucky to have him. You just have to coax the info out of him

[CycleCam303]

Does he even have a ninjette?

[rasta]

Originally Posted by CycleCam303

@rasta - The four fingers while braking is an msf thing. It's for safety so you can't blip the throttle accidentally. If your msf instructor told you the bull ish story about preventing fingers from being chewed off in a low side crash or that Rossi uses four fingers well to each his own.

Dirt bikes, shorty levers on street bikes, modern motorcycle braking systems, mountain bicycles and road bicycles all suit the two finger braking technique much better. It's also harder to rev match when using four fingers. And on high performance bikes there is a need for finer modulation on the brakes. A ducati 1098 has monobloc brembo brakes up front. I can easily one finger those because they will easily throw the bike up on its nose.

Today I realized I was actually using two fingers on the brake. Sooooo go me

[CC Cowboy]

Originally Posted by CycleCam303

Does he even have a ninjette?

rumors say no! couldn't handle the G's in the turns!

[alex.s]

don't you know? ninjettes faster than gsxr1000. that other thread says so!

[ally99]

Originally Posted by Panda

Great video.

It reminded me of this one

Link to original page on YouTube.

That was an awesome perspective! Good video!

[Alex]

Originally Posted by rojoracing53

I'm going to post this here until Alex comes up with a better place for it. He's its a video but its also in response to questions about riding skills so I guess it could go in ether.

I vote riding skills.

[Eudy]

Awesome video, rojoracing53

[ ]s

[adouglas]

Originally Posted by Panda

Great video.

It reminded me of this one

Link to original page on YouTube.

BAHHAHAHAAAAA at 1:19 and 3:15

[JeffM]

Some nice throttle blipping and braking action (+ style points for ):

Link to original page on YouTube.