Fear causing technique problems

[Yakaru]

So I'm not sure this will make a lot of sense, but between the fact that I:
a. don't want to crash... ever
b. have my Ninja in gorgeous mint condition (custom bolts, wheels, etc. etc.) which I REALLY don't want to compromise
c. am about to move
d. have new rearsets, which don't have the feeler pegs to tell me I'm running out of tire

has made me ride really defensively. Now, plain defensive riding in the traffic sense is great, and I don't believe in pushing myself to the edge on the street ever. Unfortunately it's clear in reviewing my riding videos it's actually putting me at risk -- primarily by cutting throttle in turns and other survival-reaction instincts.

Does anyone have any good advice on how to get over this resurgence of bad fear habits?

[dcj13]

Did you often touch the feeler pegs on the tarmac before you installed the rearsets?

[dcj13]

And rermember that moving and new job are two of the big stress raisers in life (along with births, deaths, marriages, and divorces).

[Yakaru]

Originally Posted by dcj13

Did you often touch the feeler pegs on the tarmac before you installed the rearsets?

I'd hit them often enough that it mattered, but not so often that I got a great feel for how far over it was, maybe 3-5% of turns when practicing in the twisties.

[Sirref]

why not use your knee pucks as your feelers?

[Yakaru]

Originally Posted by Sirref

why not use your knee pucks as your feelers?

My body positioning is pretty amateur (I don't hang off really, just sort of shift my body to the side a bit), so I rarely get my knee in a position where it would BE down outside of a lowside :P

[Sirref]

Makes sense, though it would give you "more lean" before you run out of tire, not sure exactly how much of a difference it creates other than comfort though since I always do it when I'm riding aggressively.

[jeffb502]

Have you tried going slower?

Most people seem to advise entering the turn at a slower pace than you think you can do, then once you can see through the rest of the turn you can start adding throttle.

If you're going slower through the turn your SR's won't kick in and you won't even consider chopping the throttle.

Are you trying to keep up with other people? If you are, it's not necessary. Ride your own ride. If you're not comfortable at a certain speed, just go slower.

The other comment about stress could be valid as well. Maybe everything that's going on is causing your mind to wander, or having all of the stress chemicals already pumping through your body makes it more likely for a SR type reaction to occur in a situation where it normally would not otherwise.

Somebody else had a quote in their signature on another forum that might be applicable here...here it is: "When in doubt, slow down. no one has ever hit something by going too slow."

[Yakaru]

Originally Posted by jeffb502

Have you tried going slower?

Most people seem to advise entering the turn at a slower pace than you think you can do, then once you can see through the rest of the turn you can start adding throttle.

If you're going slower through the turn your SR's won't kick in and you won't even consider chopping the throttle.

Are you trying to keep up with other people? If you are, it's not necessary. Ride your own ride. If you're not comfortable at a certain speed, just go slower.

The other comment about stress could be valid as well. Maybe everything that's going on is causing your mind to wander, or having all of the stress chemicals already pumping through your body makes it more likely for a SR type reaction to occur in a situation where it normally would not otherwise.

Somebody else had a quote in their signature on another forum that might be applicable here...here it is: "When in doubt, slow down. no one has ever hit something by going too slow."

This is great advice; but sadly I'm fighting a few demons here -- mainly that I'm trying to practice turn technique (e.g. pick a turn in point, get the bike leaned over, roll on throttle) and if I slow down much more I'll start to compromise the value of that practice. Plus it could be potentially dangerous since I'm on roads known for fast riders (not that I condone that or want to match their speeds).

I think the answer may just be too much general life stress combined with a bad habit of turning in early I've had since I started riding. I did a run through of my videos with another rider and had them point out what they would use as a turning point/intended apex and they're always both past where I'm picking, so I think I'll do some practice runs focusing entirely on that and see where it gets me

[Kscreations08]

Originally Posted by Yakaru

... so I think I'll do some practice runs focusing entirely on that and see where it gets me

Hey Yakaru. Brand new to riding so I can only echo the advice that has been given to me. Practice practice practice. Comfort comes with practice Don't push to the point where you panic but remember that you have to step out of your comfort zone to improve. Be careful out there and have fun!

[EsrTek]

Best way I can think of is to setup a tripod/camera on a good corner (one your comfortable with).
Take the turn and review footage.... Start slow and you will see what you think your bike lean angle is, to what it really is are pretty different.
No need to practice getting a knee down.. just normal pace riding is needed. Save track **** for tracks!

[Yakaru]

Yep, practice is the goal and being stupid aggressive on public roads is a recipe for disaster Just trying to get back into the swing after not riding for a while and be ready for actually hitting the track this summer.

[csmith12]

Couple of things here but first, let's turn that frown upside down as well as your thinking. Imma start with a question? What makes you feel more confident and have less fears/sr's? The base answer is quite simple, a feeling of stability and good solid traction underneath you. So how do you get it? I believe you already know how to get it honestly, you have been round here long enough. Feelings like these (and similar) are a good CSS and the likes do exercises like the no brakes drill. Once you have working entry speed then you should be able to follow that up with a good throttle roll. You know the rest. So what gives you that feeling of stability and solid traction again? I just wanted to challenge you to think differently than you are currently. Instead of fear being the main factor, let the skills be the main factor.

You already know you ride/practice in a questionable area if you feel unsafe in any way. There is an easy fix for that... ride somewhere else. And yea... everyone has to scrape of the barnacles after a spell of not riding.

Get to the track ASAP, and do a school!!! There are many reasons to do a track day but the one that stands out the most for you imho is, the street will be less intimidating because you will have a better understanding of the limits of the bike as well as yourself.

[Yakaru]

I'll be hitting CSBS Level 2 @ The Ridge this July, I'm hoping I might get Misti as my instructor

[csmith12]

Originally Posted by Yakaru

I'll be hitting CSBS Level 2 @ The Ridge this July, I'm hoping I might get Misti as my instructor

Ask and thou shall might receive, just give as much notice as possible.

[ally99]

There is an entire chapter entitled "Fear" in Lee Parks' Total Control. It helped me a lot early in my riding career.

[rojoracing53]

Yesterday I posted a reply about controlling your motorcycle needs to be third on your list of things on your mind while riding in the street. From you description it sounds like your over thinking has brought controlling your motorcycle back up to the #1 spot in your focus. At the same time you know that watching your surrounding is just as important so your feeling rush trying to do two things at once. This in turn causes anxiety and with anxiety lack of confidence is quick to follow. With no confidence in what you are doing your only putting youself at risk with easily avoided mistakes.

As for how to fix your problem, well regaining confidence in your ability at controlling your motorcycle would probably do it. I'd say a track day where your so scared of crashing your baby at speed you can't learn anything wouldn't help much. Also the CSBS is a bit to structured on what they want to teach you at the current class that you may not be able to feel relaxed and just ride and have fun which is the exact way to your confidence rebuilt. As odd as it sounds if you think you can work up the confidence to purposely lowside your self at 15 mph knowing you won't damage youself or the bike then a day on the NSR 50 would probably do you wonders. The reason I said the bit about trying to crash youself on purpose was because when I came back to mini after many years that exactly what I needed to do in order to feel comfortable. I didn't actually crash but in a slow turn I leaned the bike over to he point that it felt like I was going to and to just stuck and carved throw the corner, after that I proceeded to drop second after second off my lap times. I did lowside later in the weekend battle with another rider and walked away unscathed and ready to go right back out.

I don't know if he still does it but I have a friend in SoCal that does private trackdays with his NSR 50 if your interested in giving it a go, send me a PM if you want me to give you his info. Also I think the M1GP 8hr is coming up and there's away a few teams that with take on complete Newbs(have literally never sat on a motorcycle before) and let them race on their team. They rarely care about where they finish so it doesn't matter how slow you are. There was to kids(8years old) and an adult who were learning how to use the clutch and shift gears on Friday in the pits and by the end of he race on Sunday they looked like they had been riding for years. Just ask @Jiggles about the difference a simple race has on your riding ability vs several trackdays.

[csmith12]

^^^ First says a track day is not optimal, then offers a track day on a NSR 50?!?!?! Sort of conflicting imho, can you help me understand? With a join date of 2012, 700+ posts and has attended a level 1 school, I think we can take some things for granted, maybe...

Can't she get a rental in the Vegas area (FLAP)? Also, CSS has the BMW rental option.

[Yakaru]

Sadly my schedule is so filled I couldn't fit in any events in the near future; but I appreciate the spirit of the offer

As I mentioned earlier, I'm mostly just trying to rebuild my confidence in where my limits are (my 75-80% limits, not my 100% limits) since I didn't ride much other than straight lines this winter (combination of travel, heavy work load, doing mods, etc.) -- I'm not intending for CSBS to be a fundamental confidence builder, the point of my street twisty practice is to be ready to hit the track at CSBS running.

I'm hoping just more road time will mostly smooth it out.

[csmith12]

Originally Posted by Yakaru

Sadly my schedule is so filled I couldn't fit in any events in the near future; but I appreciate the spirit of the offer

Offer is awesome! right!!!

[rojoracing53]

Originally Posted by csmith12

^^^ First says a track day is not optimal, then offers a track day on a NSR 50?!?!?! Sort of conflicting imho, can you help me understand? With a join date of 2012, 700+ posts and has attended a level 1 school, I think we can take some things for granted, maybe...

Can't she get a rental in the Vegas area (FLAP)? Also, CSS has the BMW rental option.

A trackday on a bike even more intimidating then the 300 wouldn't have the effect on confidence I was looking for. Plus on a rented BMW you'll still have that fear of crashing the bike and having to pay for repairs to the bike or worse yourself. A trackday on a 50 is about as fearfull as going for a ride on a bicycle plus they'd not qualifactions needed. Plus if you do crash 1,2 or more times you'll probably be fine and so will the bike.

OP is hinting that even though they've done level one at a trackday there have been some recent changes to their situation and seem to have set them back to stage one. I'm not saying don't do the planned CSBS, I'm recommending branching out and trying a few other things that could have other benefits. I offer in person instruction to anyone in my region but sadly they isn't the case here.

[alex.s]

we are scared of what we don't know. we are scared there might be oil in the road, or a stopped car on the other side of that blind corner. it is good to be scared. let your fears help you. but don't let them hurt you. know what your bike does in the situations you are going to put it in. i would say track is not going to help except with skills development. get a ****** 50cc, find a dirty patch of pavement, throw some water on it and go in circles and then figure 8s until you're a drift pro. then try it from the beginning with the 300.

[adouglas]

Originally Posted by jeffb502

Have you tried going slower?

Most people seem to advise entering the turn at a slower pace than you think you can do, then once you can see through the rest of the turn you can start adding throttle.

If you're going slower through the turn your SR's won't kick in and you won't even consider chopping the throttle.

Are you trying to keep up with other people? If you are, it's not necessary. Ride your own ride. If you're not comfortable at a certain speed, just go slower.

The other comment about stress could be valid as well. Maybe everything that's going on is causing your mind to wander, or having all of the stress chemicals already pumping through your body makes it more likely for a SR type reaction to occur in a situation where it normally would not otherwise.

Somebody else had a quote in their signature on another forum that might be applicable here...here it is: "When in doubt, slow down. no one has ever hit something by going too slow."

this!!!

There's a new rider here at work and I've been coaching him. One of the first things I told him was that "every corner should feel slow going in." As you gain experience and confidence, what "feels slow" will get faster and faster.

Originally Posted by Yakaru

I'm trying to practice turn technique (e.g. pick a turn in point, get the bike leaned over, roll on throttle) and if I slow down much more I'll start to compromise the value of that practice.

I respectfully disagree.

The objective is smoothness and technique... not achieving a particular speed or lean angle. Those are byproducts of speed. Nailing the line and being smooth can be done at any speed. The only difference is that at low speed, you don't have any real consequences or tactile feedback for doing it wrong. You can be all kinds of sloppy at 35 mph... at 60 you might lose it.

As someone once said, "sneak up on fast."

And yeah... sounds like a trip to the track is in order!

[csmith12]

Originally Posted by rojoracing53

A trackday on a bike even more intimidating then the 300 wouldn't have the effect on confidence I was looking for. Plus on a rented BMW you'll still have that fear of crashing the bike and having to pay for repairs to the bike or worse yourself. A trackday on a 50 is about as fearfull as going for a ride on a bicycle plus they'd not qualifactions needed. Plus if you do crash 1,2 or more times you'll probably be fine and so will the bike.

OP is hinting that even though they've done level one at a trackday there have been some recent changes to their situation and seem to have set them back to stage one. I'm not saying don't do the planned CSBS, I'm recommending branching out and trying a few other things that could have other benefits. I offer in person instruction to anyone in my region but sadly they isn't the case here.

That makes sense, and I also get that same feeling. Almost like after I binned it hard last year (fear of pushing hard).

Understandable... I can agree with the little bike option or maybe even some dirt time. I have been playing in the dirt and snow all winter. It definitely helps keep the bad rust at bay.

[Yakaru]

Originally Posted by adouglas

The objective is smoothness and technique... not achieving a particular speed or lean angle. Those are byproducts of speed. Nailing the line and being smooth can be done at any speed. The only difference is that at low speed, you don't have any real consequences or tactile feedback for doing it wrong. You can be all kinds of sloppy at 35 mph... at 60 you might lose it.

You actually kind of said what I meant :P -- I'm already going on the slow side and I don't feel like I'm in any way pushing myself (I haven't had any close calls or actual panic moments; it's just a low level "don't go down" through the whole ride).

I'm not looking for a lean angle or anything but I am trying to get feelings of if I took a turn well or poorly. If I slow down much more, I can basically 'go ballistic' (a phrase Momaru uses to refer to turning at the same time and rate as the road) without having any issues.

Does that make any sense?

[csmith12]

Originally Posted by Yakaru

I can basically 'go ballistic' (a phrase Momaru uses to refer to turning at the same time and rate as the road) without having any issues.

Does that make any sense?

Ah.... to feel the rhythm of the road. The holy grail of riding.

[Sirref]

feeling the rhythm of the road is like a dance with the devil. exhilarating and beautiful but deep down you know you're riding a knife's edge. worth it though.

[Misti]

Originally Posted by Yakaru

So I'm not sure this will make a lot of sense, but between the fact that I:
a. don't want to crash... ever
b. have my Ninja in gorgeous mint condition (custom bolts, wheels, etc. etc.) which I REALLY don't want to compromise
c. am about to move
d. have new rearsets, which don't have the feeler pegs to tell me I'm running out of tire

has made me ride really defensively. Now, plain defensive riding in the traffic sense is great, and I don't believe in pushing myself to the edge on the street ever. Unfortunately it's clear in reviewing my riding videos it's actually putting me at risk -- primarily by cutting throttle in turns and other survival-reaction instincts.

Does anyone have any good advice on how to get over this resurgence of bad fear habits?

Sounds to me like you really need to start working on one thing at a time in order to gain some confidence back. And because you mention that you are cutting throttle in the turns that is the first thing that I would work on. You know that you want to roll on the gas evenly, smoothly and consistently throughout the turn so you need to work on being able to do that.

If you went into the turns a few mph slower would you be able to accomplish this? Once you got the hang of this would you be able to bring the pace back up?

Also, see what csmith12 has written below

Originally Posted by csmith12

Couple of things here but first, let's turn that frown upside down as well as your thinking. Imma start with a question? What makes you feel more confident and have less fears/sr's? The base answer is quite simple, a feeling of stability and good solid traction underneath you. So how do you get it? I believe you already know how to get it honestly, you have been round here long enough. Feelings like these (and similar) are a good CSS and the likes do exercises like the no brakes drill. Once you have working entry speed then you should be able to follow that up with a good throttle roll. You know the rest. So what gives you that feeling of stability and solid traction again? I just wanted to challenge you to think differently than you are currently. Instead of fear being the main factor, let the skills be the main factor.

You already know you ride/practice in a questionable area if you feel unsafe in any way. There is an easy fix for that... ride somewhere else. And yea... everyone has to scrape of the barnacles after a spell of not riding.

Get to the track ASAP, and do a school!!! There are many reasons to do a track day but the one that stands out the most for you imho is, the street will be less intimidating because you will have a better understanding of the limits of the bike as well as yourself.

well said and good advice.

Originally Posted by Yakaru

I'll be hitting CSBS Level 2 @ The Ridge this July, I'm hoping I might get Misti as my instructor

Woohooooo!!!! Make sure to call the office and make the request, do it now :dance cool: then call again closer to the date and then when you get to the school make sure to ask specifically again and they always do their best to accommodate requests. Looking forward to meeting you!!!

Misti

[Yakaru]

Originally Posted by Misti

Sounds to me like you really need to start working on one thing at a time in order to gain some confidence back. And because you mention that you are cutting throttle in the turns that is the first thing that I would work on. You know that you want to roll on the gas evenly, smoothly and consistently throughout the turn so you need to work on being able to do that.

If you went into the turns a few mph slower would you be able to accomplish this? Once you got the hang of this would you be able to bring the pace back up?

I'm already a bit on the slow side, I think one major problem is that the roads I'm practicing on are lots of blind corners and I don't ride them often enough to remember how each turn goes so I lean in, then back off the throttle when I don't see the exit point (which is not the way to do it, obviously). Improving my entry point might help, but I'll try a few things to see what helps me not roll off mid turn.

Originally Posted by Misti

Woohooooo!!!! Make sure to call the office and make the request, do it now :dance cool: then call again closer to the date and then when you get to the school make sure to ask specifically again and they always do their best to accommodate requests. Looking forward to meeting you!!!

Misti

Thanks Misti, will do

[Motofool]

Originally Posted by Yakaru

..........Does anyone have any good advice on how to get over this resurgence of bad fear habits?

First, I would find the root of the fear or mental conflict in relation to something.

http://www.jiddu-krishnamurti.net/en...ear-and-escape

Do you believe that this escape reaction (resurgence of bad habits) is consequence of your previous accident?

[ally99]

Originally Posted by Yakaru

I'm already a bit on the slow side, I think one major problem is that the roads I'm practicing on are lots of blind corners and I don't ride them often enough to remember how each turn goes so I lean in, then back off the throttle when I don't see the exit point (which is not the way to do it, obviously). Improving my entry point might help, but I'll try a few things to see what helps me not roll off mid turn.

Thanks Misti, will do

My first question is, how far are you looking through the corner?

A bit of advice that helped me with that same problem, used a delayed apex line. A delayed apex line is beneficial as you can get a better viewpoint and more accurately gauge the apex, plus the quick turn keeps you at max lean for the shortest amount of time.

[Whiskey]

Originally Posted by Yakaru

So I'm not sure this will make a lot of sense, but between the fact that I:
a. don't want to crash... ever
b. have my Ninja in gorgeous mint condition (custom bolts, wheels, etc. etc.) which I REALLY don't want to compromise
c. am about to move
d. have new rearsets, which don't have the feeler pegs to tell me I'm running out of tire

has made me ride really defensively. Now, plain defensive riding in the traffic sense is great, and I don't believe in pushing myself to the edge on the street ever. Unfortunately it's clear in reviewing my riding videos it's actually putting me at risk -- primarily by cutting throttle in turns and other survival-reaction instincts.

Does anyone have any good advice on how to get over this resurgence of bad fear habits?

Get something cheap & nasty to practise on until you get a bit of confidence back, cheap enough that you can sell it for what you paid if you don't bin it.

[Misti]

Originally Posted by Yakaru

I'm already a bit on the slow side, I think one major problem is that the roads I'm practicing on are lots of blind corners and I don't ride them often enough to remember how each turn goes so I lean in, then back off the throttle when I don't see the exit point (which is not the way to do it, obviously). Improving my entry point might help, but I'll try a few things to see what helps me not roll off mid turn.



Thanks Misti, will do

I wouldn't worry about your speed AT ALL at this point right now, so if taking the turn a few mph slower at the entrance helps you feel more comfortable rolling on the throttle throughout the turn you will not only have a more stable bike and be riding safer but you will get through the turn quicker than what you are doing now.

This of course isn't the only solution to the problem but it is a good start in order to begin feeling how much better the bike FEELS when you are able to roll on the gas throughout the turn instead of rolling off mid way. Give it a try when no one else is around and when you aren't concerned about your speed and see if it helps.

Then, start working on your visual skills. Like ally99 says, you want to be looking through the corner so you can see much of the turn as possible. The more you can see, the more comfortable you will be rolling on the gas. Take a look at how far ahead of you your eyes are seeing and then try to look a little further. See if that helps give you more confidence in rolling on the gas. From there we can look at the timing of WHEN you look into the turn :dance cool: How does WHEN you look into the turn help? What is the difference between looking into the turn as you are turning or looking into the turn BEFORE you actually turn the bike?

Misti

[Yakaru]

Thanks for the feedback Misti.

I've done a ton of canyon riding in the last week and I think it's helped just from a getting in the swing of things and focusing on a few things, primarily turn in point and roll on. I'm going to try to edit some of my videos together comparing my earlier rides to the later ones (comparing lines, throttle, etc.) -- I tried a straight side by side but the videos got out of sync so fast that it wasn't useful. It will take some hand editing but then I can compare a good and bad run through the same corner and see what went well/poorly.

I still get passed by all the people trying to use the road as their own track, but I'm much happier with my riding (though want more feedback/to improve more)

[EsrTek]

From those Rock Store photos in other thread, you had some pics w/ good lean angle but poor BP (not sayin I have good BP either). I think more BP might be needed to bring you along on that progression. From those photos, you can see you outside knee way off from tank and not being used to holding you on during lean.
Bp practice helped me on a corner that made me nervous and after some practice noticed myself taking the turn much faster and feeling like I was actually going slower. Had more control of bike and felt damn good!!!

[Yakaru]

Hey Esr,

Thanks for the advice but I'm pretty much ignoring my body positioning at this point to focus on more basic skills when I feel I've got the other fundamentals down I'll probably start bugging everyone for more advice on that topic.

[EsrTek]

Sorry if I jumped ahead, I was just thinking about my own situations and what I felt helped me (even though I'm still got a lot to learn).
I was in same thought process as you are now, last season, and started to focus on BP (very slight BP) and it helped me w/ my original goals.
Which I why I mentioned it for you..but do what you feel is right for now and it will all come in time.

[alex.s]

sometimes making a change to body position reveals other flaws in technique like stiff bodies. look into the "hook turn" it is a great way to practice loosening up your upper body

[Yakaru]

Originally Posted by EsrTek

Sorry if I jumped ahead, I was just thinking about my own situations and what I felt helped me (even though I'm still got a lot to learn).
I was in same thought process as you are now, last season, and started to focus on BP (very slight BP) and it helped me w/ my original goals.
Which I why I mentioned it for you..but do what you feel is right for now and it will all come in time.

I get it and totally appreciate it -- body positioning should be covered during level 3 of CSBS and I'm trying to roughly line my practice up to mastering the skills in the order taught. I'm still working on getting level 1 downpat and will be taking level 2 later this year.

[cbinker]

get the book Total Control, read it, read it again, practice the techniques, read it again.