How to practice body lean?

[corksil]

Not really sure how to ask this question -- but how can I develop the habit of practicing "body lean."

After nailing a few personal best times through a closed course race track, I re-watched the video of my body position.

Even when I push the bike to maximum lean angle and hang off the side, I still don't seem to bring my upper body down lower toward the inside of the turn.

Even when I put down the quickest times through a section of track, I still don't lean my upper body down.

I hang my lower body far off the bike, 2 cheeks off, but my head and shoulders never go lower than a hypothetical horizontal line driven through the X-axis of the lowest mirror.

Cliffnotes
-op wants to improve his lap times
-op shifts his hips and lower body
-op doesn't move his shoulders much or lean his head into the turn
-any tips for practicing the habit of leaning the upper torso through a turn?

cliffnotes of cliffnotes
-leaning head/shoulders deep into a turn feels awkward, how do I work on correcting this?

Thanks guys.

[Alex]

/moved to riding skills

Move off the island, and find a place with a racetrack. Until then, you're essentially kidding yourself. Was reading SportRider this morning on the train, and Kent had a pretty good piece on this. I'd paraphrase, but there are already other links on the internet, so I'll just point to one of them in the meantime:

http://www.stephenhughes-jelen.com/t...pin_4-2014.pdf

[jeffb502]

Originally Posted by Alex

/moved to riding skills

Move off the island, and find a place with a racetrack. Until then, you're essentially kidding yourself. Was reading SportRider this morning on the train, and Kent had a pretty good piece on this. I'd paraphrase, but there are already other links on the internet, so I'll just point to one of them in the meantime:

http://www.stephenhughes-jelen.com/t...pin_4-2014.pdf

Nice article, but I think the op said he was on a race track.

[csmith12]

There is a track in Maui that isn't dirt?

[adouglas]

CAVEAT: I'm no expert and haven't even been to the track yet.

Sounds an awful lot like you're riding crossed up. It's not about hanging your butt off. It's about shifting your weight inside and down. Most of your weight is from the waist up... your head weighs as much as a bowling ball!

Look at photos of the great racers an you'll see a couple of things:

1) They're not putting both cheeks off the seat as a rule. Just one.

2) Their spine is parallel with the long axis of the bike. That means they're shifting their whole torso to the inside, not just their butt.

What I'm doing to prepare for my track day is think actively about getting that alignment right. I also spent a few of those long winter evenings down in the shop, sitting on the bike and looking for reference points that would help me.

To get to the inside you'll probably need to do a few things:

a) shove back in the seat so you can get lower
b) use the tank as a physical reference point. Put your outside forearm against the tank, which will force you to move your upper body to the inside. Maybe actually put your chest on the tank (easier to do on a true sportbike... the Ninjette tank is narrower at the top).
c) think about how your body is aligned and use peripheral vision to check... point your chin at the mirror... think about lining up your outside shoulder with the gauge cluster or gas cap.... put the inside grip under your chin....

Here's a photo gallery (hot linking and downloading not allowed, unfortunately) with some good examples of how to do it and how not to do it. Fortunately most of the bikes have numbers and there are multiple shots of each rider.

http://frontsidephoto.smugmug.com/Ar...rch-2014/1100/

Two guys are doing what you describe -- riding crossed up. They are #779 (really bad) and #51.

A couple of guys are humping the tank, which keeps them from getting low and inside. One is the guy in white/orange leathers riding a plain white bike. The other is #826, on the blue and white bike/neon helmet. See how they can't get their outside arm on the tank?

Several guys look like they have really good body position. They're really aggressive, low down and way inside with their upper body. Look especially at #451. Outside arm touching the tank, outside shoulder squarely over the gas cap, head totally to the inside of the tank.

[adouglas]

Followup for those too lazy to click the link in the post above.


Take a look at these photos of Rossi and Lorenzo.

This guy is riding WAY faster than any of us ever will. Notice that his right cheek is still on the seat, Notice that Lorenzo's head is completely to the inside of the windscreen. Notice that Lorenzo's entire upper body is farther to the inside than his butt is:



Now look at this one... it's really telling. Where is his outside shoulder relative to the bike? Where is the center of his chest relative to the bike? How about his head and outside arm? See how his chin is directly over the inside grip?

[Boosted139]

Adouglas has good points. If you have pictures of your BP, that would also help.

Only comment is don't get too far off the tank. You need the tank to lock into the bike, if you're all the way back in the seat it can be more difficult. General rule of thumb is to have a space the size of your first between you and the tank.

[ally99]

I've noticed after riding several different bikes on a track, the 250 makes the lower, more aggressive body position more difficult if you have stock bars. The wrist/arm kind of gets in the way of lowering my upper body as much as I like. My GSXR with a more aggressive position naturally allowed me to lower my upper body into what felt like the perfect position. Maybe clipons would help? I always loved my 250 BP until I felt how much different it was on my GSXR which made it feel more natural to get lower.

[Sirref]

Originally Posted by corksil

I hang my lower body far off the bike, 2 cheeks off, but my head and shoulders never go lower than a hypothetical horizontal line driven through the X-axis of the lowest mirror.

there is your problem, your upper body has to compensate because you're leaning your lower body off too much. The upper body should be leading the lean, as it is you're probably very crossed up and hanging off isn't helping you much. One cheek is enough with a focus on "kissing the mirror" instead of getting your entire butt off the seat.

I agree with ally, clip ons are a godsend when you want really aggressive bp. I can't wait until I have some on my bike.

[misfitsailor]

Originally Posted by Sirref

there is your problem, your upper body has to compensate because you're leaning your lower body off too much. The upper body should be leading the lean, as it is you're probably very crossed up and hanging off isn't helping you much. One cheek is enough with a focus on "kissing the mirror" instead of getting your entire butt off the seat.

I agree with ally, clip ons are a godsend when you want really aggressive bp. I can't wait until I have some on my bike.

(Saved me the trouble!)

[JohnnyBravo]

To put it in terms you may understand... Ya Gota bounce right n leff den let cha shollda lean

[alex.s]

nothing wrong with two cheeks off if you're comfy and locked in. i get 1.5 cheeks off. lead with your nose. bend your inside elbow more. try to put the right side of your rib-cage against the left side of the gas tank when you are going left and vice versa. the big deal is that you need to be relaxed, but locked in with nowhere to go. if you can reliably use only your outside leg to stay with the bike, the rest of your body is free to be nice and relaxed which means you can easily adjust body position and "tighten up" your bp after turn in if you feel you need to

[csmith12]

What do you find awkward about it?

How are your visual skills? Many riders do not get their head/shoulders lower until they have sorted their visual skills.

[choneofakind]

^^ that's me. And my head STILL isn't low enough.

Cork. Bend your inside elbow. It will help with lowering the inside shoulder, and in turn, your head.

[alex.s]

you don't need to look at the road to know where you're going

[adouglas]

^^ Zen master. ^^

[csmith12]

Originally Posted by choneofakind

^^ that's me. And my head STILL isn't low enough.

Cork. Bend your inside elbow. It will help with lowering the inside shoulder, and in turn, your head.

Kinda... it's a moving target or cause and effect. The faster you get, the more your visual skills must adjust to compensate. I can't explain it really, you know you're reaching the higher end of visual skills when your eyes/head/shoulder are actively "chasing" down the next reference point before you even turn the bike or mid-corner to hook the line tighter. That subliminal act of chasing is what gets your head and everything else down without even thinking about it. Racers do it as they see the next rider to chase down and pass. ie.... they WANT it.

It's not really something you slop luck into either. Other fundamentals have to be in place ahead of time or you're almost wasting your time. Fundamentals such as throttle control, comfort with lean angle, stability on the bike, line selection just to name a few. We have all heard this... "You don't have to get off the bike until hard parts are scraping". While that advice is questionable at best, it has merit for the subliminal message it contains.

[alex.s]

Such addict. Always only ever looking for that next pass or the next CHiP.

[Whiskey]

Originally Posted by alex.s

you don't need to look at the road to know where you're going

Kinda helps if you see the in a porche running the public road your racetrack in the opposite direction before meeting them

[alex.s]

maybe you shouldn't ride on the same racetrack as porches?

[rasta]

Problem solved

[Motofool]

Originally Posted by csmith12

..........Fundamentals such as throttle control, comfort with lean angle, stability on the bike, line selection just to name a few........

Note to OP:

Frame those words and hang them next to where you park your bike.

Hanging-off has been made the center and core of riding well, when it is just a technique to squeeze a few more drops of juice out of that orange.

Yes, your suspension may be working with 3 degrees less of lean, but how much that matter if your fundamental skills and smoothness are in need of perfection still?

Work first on your sense of entry speed, on the finesse of your wrist and hand grip, on the proper acceleration, on the proper braking, on the proper visual scanning, on your sense of balance, on your sense of rubber traction, on saving bad situations, on evaluating the road/track surface, on adjusting for wet/sandy road/track.

As you gain confidence, the blockage of fear will decrease and your speed, precision and smoothness will increase.

Only then, your mind and eyes will start pulling your head in the right direction and amount, then your upper and lower parts of your body will follow.

This is like dancing; you must feel what you are doing, and what you do, if you are good at it, must effortless come from inside you, ending on the hand grips (extension of your arms) and contact patches of your bike (extension of your feet), in perfect harmony.

Reading this thread may help you knowing the facts:
https://www.ninjette.org/forums/showthread.php?t=168025

[ally99]

Originally Posted by Motofool

This is like dancing; you must feel what you are doing, and what you do, if you are good at it, must effortless come from inside you, ending on the hand grips (extension of your arms) and contact patches of your bike (extension of your feet), in perfect harmony.

Reading this thread may help you knowing the facts:
https://www.ninjette.org/forums/showthread.php?t=168025

Imagine you and the bike are one fluid, smooth object. You move as one, not separately. This is part of the dance.

[alex.s]

Originally Posted by ally99

Imagine you and the bike are one fluid, smooth object. You move as one, not separately. This is part of the dance.

i prefer to make body changes and bike changes separately. i have a bad tendency to upset the steering or the rear if i try to do both at the same time. so i will try to make a body position change and then once finished make bike changes unless there is no time and both must be done at once. for example, a chicane at the end of a straight; i go from tucked up, then i change my feet positions, then i change my butt position and hand positions, then turn the bike. lower the head as you settle into the turn. before your transition point, change foot positions. just before transition, pick the bike up 25% (which briefly pulls the bike to the inside of the first turn and pulls it up under you), immediately followed by your butt transition, and then continue through the flop with your body already into the turn. finish the turn and pick up the bike asap. get back to tuck asap- before the bike is up. you can separate most of the changes into individual parts and smooth things out, except for the transition and flop on the chicane. its so fast that doing it smoothly means that the steering is still compressed while your butt is moving over.

[Motofool]

Originally Posted by ally99

Imagine you and the bike are one fluid, smooth object. You move as one, not separately. This is part of the dance.

"Smooth is good. Smooth moves, smooth handling-it's all something to strive for, and life on a motorcycle is no exception. The end goal of all experiences on a bike should be smoothness. Mix that idea in with being fast, safe and in control and you've got the essence of a perfect ride-something to strive and work for. Indeed, most riders feel that if only they were smoother, they'd become better, quicker and safer.

The problem? That assumption is more complicated than it sounds. In order to expand on the idea, let's analyze the elements of smoothness on a bike, from the hardware to the combination of actions that make a bike go steady, go fast or go home.

There are six parts on your motorcycle you need to be concerned with-the Hardware of Smooth: 1. Handlebars; 2. Throttle; 3. Front brake; 4. Clutch; 5. Shift lever; 6. Rear brake.

With those six controls, there are 18 actions a rider must master-the Actions of Smooth.

The combination of any of these controls and actions changes-or influences changes-in the speed and direction of the bike. Take each of the following points and, using a 1-to-10 scale, grade yourself by asking, "What degree of control do I have over________?" The resulting numbers will be your IQ of motorcycle riding: your SQ, or Smoothness Quotient.

1. Throttle: The initial transition from off to slightly positive.
2. Throttle: Rolling on toward full throttle.
3. Throttle: Rolling off toward completely off.
4. Throttle: Modulating the throttle-less to more or more to less as in controlling wheelspin.
5. Throttle: A quick blip on/off for a downshift or off/on for a clutchless upshift.
6. Brakes: The initial lever pull or pedal press.
7. Brakes: Increasing lever or pedal pressure.
8. Brakes: Reducing pressure.
9. Brakes: Modulating pressure to adjust speed or add resistance as in slow-speed maneuvering or trail-braking.
10. Clutch: Pulling the lever in.
11. Clutch: Letting the lever out.
12. Clutch: Modulating the lever as in slipping it to start off.
13. Bars: Applying pressure by pressing and/or pulling on them.
14. Bars: Releasing any applied pressure or pulling action on them.
15. Bars: Sequential pressure and/or pulling on the bars, as through S-curves.
16. Body Position.
17. Gear change: Clicking the shift lever up.
18. Gear change: Clicking the shift lever down.

The first 15 combinations have a very wide range of adjustment. It's the volume you crank into any one of them that affects your Smoothness Quotient-e.g. twisting the throttle; changing brake lever pressure; quick-flicking the bike or turning it easy; gradually slipping the clutch or quickly engaging it; and so on. The possibilities for making errors and being rough are nearly endless. The combinations leading to smooth are far fewer.

Some very simple combinations are not only rough but patently dangerous. Pulling hard on the front brake while pinning the throttle will result in a crash (unless you're trying to do a burnout). Rolling on and off the gas in a turn is rough. Shifting with the gas going on or off too much is rough. Flicking the bike from side to side while grabbing the front brake is rough.

In contrast, some very complex combinations give great results. Simultaneously using the rear brake, clutch, gas and steering for low-speed maneuvering allows for excellent control and stability.

Number 16 is Body Position. Poor body position has a high potential for creating disharmony between the bike and rider. There are only a few positions that create optimum control and connectedness with the machine. Numbers 17 and 18, related to gear changes, can only be done quicker or slower, but even they can miss the mark because two other controls, the clutch and throttle, are usually involved.

Next time you're on your bike thinking of all the smooth moves you'd like to make, think about your Smoothness Quotient and work on upping your score." - Keith Code

Read more: http://www.motorcyclistonline.com/fe...#ixzz2yRtDSUtK

[Boosted139]

Originally Posted by alex.s

i prefer to make body changes and bike changes separately. i have a bad tendency to upset the steering or the rear if i try to do both at the same time. so i will try to make a body position change and then once finished make bike changes unless there is no time and both must be done at once. for example, a chicane at the end of a straight; i go from tucked up, then i change my feet positions, then i change my butt position and hand positions, then turn the bike. lower the head as you settle into the turn. before your transition point, change foot positions. just before transition, pick the bike up 25% (which briefly pulls the bike to the inside of the first turn and pulls it up under you), immediately followed by your butt transition, and then continue through the flop with your body already into the turn. finish the turn and pick up the bike asap. get back to tuck asap- before the bike is up. you can separate most of the changes into individual parts and smooth things out, except for the transition and flop on the chicane. its so fast that doing it smoothly means that the steering is still compressed while your butt is moving over.

Agree with this. Think of it this way, before a turn you have to do a bunch of stuff: brake, downshift, body position, turn. Why not take one thing out of the equation and have your butt off the seat before or just as you start braking. Just less to do. Watch MotoGP guys, they only sit on the center of the seat for straights.

[ally99]

I agree. I position myself off the bike prior to other inputs entering a corner. Lee Parks advises setting your body position way ahead of time in Total Control. However, this sets me up so when the bike and I move, we move in synch. Cheesy, maybe, but I feel like we move as one unit when we nail a corner just right.

[cbinker]

Maybe he has been watching MM do this:

[alex.s]

[Motofool]

Link to original page on YouTube.

[Sirref]

^
not sure why but hanging off to the point where my knee is close to the ground/dragging a bit is a lot more comfortable at higher speeds.

[cbinker]

armpit on tank, face in elbow.

[adouglas]

Originally Posted by cbinker

armpit on tank, face in elbow.

[cbinker]

Originally Posted by adouglas

I can count to Potato!

[mandeec54]

I apologize for opening an old thread. What you can do is put the bike on some stands, or just utilize the kick stand it will hold you. Sit on the bike like you would be riding. Turn "left" get off the seat and only have your right butt cheek on the seat, position your foot so toes are pointed down to get your knee out, lean your whole body left, this means your lower and upper body. Your face should be around where the mirror should be. Hold that position, one thing to make sure of is that your right arm is not extended all the way out you do not want it locked out you want it slightly bent and just kind of hanging out on the tank. Now you can take your hands off (this is the best practice) your legs should hold you on. Go to the right side and do the same thing, when you start getting good at it you will be able to start sliding across the bike with no hands and leaning off. Another thing, when at the apex of the turn start rolling on the throttle, the bike will start to come back up, stay leaned over, you should not sit back on the seat until your bike is totally up and you should be on the straight away again. Biggest thing, get your whole body off that bike, don't be scared get off that thing and lean, the gas tank will hold you on.

[cadd]

For regular street riding (ie commuting), do you guys take one butt cheek off the seat when cornering?

Or is that overkill for the streets? I've done both. But it gets tiring after a while....and I get lazy.

What is the norm for street (non aggressive) riding?

[alex.s]

i use correct body position for every turn i make unless there is no room for it. example splitting two cars in a turn means you actually need to go opposite body position so you dont hit your head on the car on the inside

[Alex]

Unless you're in a monster wheelie at the time, where your head will then just clear the side mirrors of the inside car.

[alex.s]

i've done that before. scared myself

[ally99]

Originally Posted by Alex

Unless you're in a monster wheelie at the time, where your head will then just clear the side mirrors of the inside car.

Originally Posted by alex.s

i've done that before. scared myself

A monster wheelie on the 250?