What do you call it when...

[corksil]

When you are deep in a turn, very steep lean angle, carving very hard, and all of a sudden a car comes the other way or the radius increases and the apex jumps right on top of you and you're forced to tighten up your line..

..And you ask more of the bike than it wants to give and you feel both tires simultaneously break loose and suddenly you're sliding sideways toward the outside of the turn and the bike feels like it's falling into an even steeper lean angle and the only thought hammering through your head is "THIS IS IT, I'M GOING DOWN!".

Is that what is commonly referred to as "running out of tire?"

Happened three times up in the crater today, (closed course obviously not doing this on public roads!) -- The first time I let off ever so slightly and the bike stood up a little bit and I was able to pull through the turn.

Second time, I was coming into the turn waaay too hot and realized it as the bike literally felt like it fell over into the turn, tapped the front brake ever-so-gently -- and the front end washed out about seven inches before it caught traction and the bike stood up and I was able to barely keep it from going wide off the road.

Third time I was halfway through the turn and had to tighten up my line and felt both tires wash out and I'm surprised I didn't drag any hard parts because I slid about two feet off my line before the bike got itself pointed and I got back on the throttle hard and pulled the bike back up out of the turn once it slid around and got itself pointed correctly.

(Yes those were three run-on sentences)

All turns were hairpins, good tarmac, nice warm tires, and I know what it feels like when you push a squared-off street tire hard and you come off the "edge" of the flat center and the bike feels like it dives into a tighter lean angle all of a sudden -- that wasn't what I felt today. I was well leaned past the flat spot in the center of the tire, my non existent chicken strips show me that. Front chicken strips are about 1/4" -- Dunlop GT501.

I guess it serves me right for trying to "fix" some flat-centered tires by carving tight lean angles in an attempt to scrub the flat spot out of the center and re-round the tires..

Swear to god, "ran out of tire" has never sounded so applicable.

Plz advise. Was hanging pretty far off the bike, no knee drag but musta been damn close because I've never pushed it anywhere NEAR this hard before through the twisties. I need some knowledge because I swear I'm gonna hurt myself one of these days and I really don't want that to happen. Thanks.

[Aufitt]

Sorry to say its called poor body position and roadcraft.

As for the running out of tyre, your knees should touch long before the pegs.

[Whiskey]

Originally Posted by corksil

When you are deep in a turn, very steep lean angle, carving very hard, and all of a sudden a car comes the other way or the radius increases and the apex jumps right on top of you and you're forced to tighten up your line..

..And you ask more of the bike than it wants to give and you feel both tires simultaneously break loose and suddenly you're sliding sideways toward the outside of the turn and the bike feels like it's falling into an even steeper lean angle and the only thought hammering through your head is "THIS IS IT, I'M GOING DOWN!".

Is that what is commonly referred to as "running out of tire?"

Happened three times up in the crater today, (closed course obviously not doing this on public roads!) -- The first time I let off ever so slightly and the bike stood up a little bit and I was able to pull through the turn.

Second time, I was coming into the turn waaay too hot and realized it as the bike literally felt like it fell over into the turn, tapped the front brake ever-so-gently -- and the front end washed out about seven inches before it caught traction and the bike stood up and I was able to barely keep it from going wide off the road.

Third time I was halfway through the turn and had to tighten up my line and felt both tires wash out and I'm surprised I didn't drag any hard parts because I slid about two feet off my line before the bike got itself pointed and I got back on the throttle hard and pulled the bike back up out of the turn once it slid around and got itself pointed correctly.

(Yes those were three run-on sentences)

All turns were hairpins, good tarmac, nice warm tires, and I know what it feels like when you push a squared-off street tire hard and you come off the "edge" of the flat center and the bike feels like it dives into a tighter lean angle all of a sudden -- that wasn't what I felt today. I was well leaned past the flat spot in the center of the tire, my non existent chicken strips show me that. Front chicken strips are about 1/4" -- Dunlop GT501.

I guess it serves me right for trying to "fix" some flat-centered tires by carving tight lean angles in an attempt to scrub the flat spot out of the center and re-round the tires..

Swear to god, "ran out of tire" has never sounded so applicable.

Plz advise. Was hanging pretty far off the bike, no knee drag but musta been damn close because I've never pushed it anywhere NEAR this hard before through the twisties. I need some knowledge because I swear I'm gonna hurt myself one of these days and I really don't want that to happen. Thanks.

Hmmmmmmm

Radius increases means the corner opens up not closes down.

[flitecontrol]

Originally Posted by corksil

I need some knowledge because I swear I'm gonna hurt myself one of these days and I really don't want that to happen. Thanks.

Slow down. That will solve all your issues.

[Ducati999]

Without pictures of your body position it is not easy to judge. Look at Mark Marquez when he is running thru a tight turn, is your head at or below the clipon and do you hang way off the bike or does it just feel like you are way off? While riding on the track i felt like i was hanging way off the bike but when we studied the pictures it showed i was barely off. like 10% of what i felt, if your knee is not touching then you are not off as far as you think. Letting off the throttle mid turn with the tires loaded as you describe will change the load from the front by adding weight to the rear. Based on what you described the front was losing traction/over loaded and the rear had the extra traction you needed to save the slide, different body position and line choice seem to be the answer. Try a few slightly different lines and body positions and let us know what you find. Another question is, are you trailing the front brake to the apex or just rushing the turn and throwing it on its side and holding on? Trailing the brakes allows the fork to stay loaded untill you are ready to add throttle and does not allow the fork to fully rebound (lightening the front tire) during turn in, and increases rake and trail which help in hard cornering. Try to get some photos or video of what is happening during the part of the turn where you are having problems and you will find your answer.

[corksil]

Ducati your post was indispensable. Thanks.

Going to watch twist II again, just to keep the concepts fresh in my memory.

Sound correct, what you said about the front not having the grip I was needing then once I rolled on, the weight transfer to the rear stabilized the bike.

I've never felt those exact feelings before, was a strange exp. Going to leather up and go looking for that edge again after I do some more research.

Much appreciated.

[ally99]

I'd bet it was your line. Good lines beat good BP in good cornering practices.

[csmith12]

Originally Posted by corksil

Going to watch twist II again, just to keep the concepts fresh in my memory.

Stop charging your corners, your gunna bin it doing that kinda stuff. Learn how to set a good entry speed and get faster as you get more comfortable and the bike continues to give you good feedback. Charging the corner is covered in the twist II content.

[Worldtraveller]

Originally Posted by csmith12

Stop charging your corners, your gunna bin it doing that kinda stuff. Learn how to set a good entry speed and get faster as you get more comfortable and the bike continues to give you good feedback. Charging the corner is covered in the twist II content.

Slow in, fast out is the rule to stay safe.

Track is one thing, but on the street, even when I know the corner, I go into it with much less than is possible, and accelerate as I go through, gradually increasing lean (or not, that's why having the extra buffer is nice) until it starts to straighten up.

[corksil]

After doing some more thinking, I feel that having a small bike is part of the issue.

The particular riding conditions are 10k feet above sea level. According to my very thorough calculations, every 1k feet above sea level, 3% of total available power is lost due to atmospheric density changes. After extensive research in regard to rifle ballistics, coupled with extensive fuel injection tuning experience and hands-on-cannot-deny-the-phenomenon-unfolding-right-before-my-eyes, I've determined that this 250 is indeed 30% less powerful at 10k feet of elevation.

Basically to sum it all up, to try and increase my overall track times, I end up charging turns in an attempt to maintain higher exit velocity --- as a result, I'm getting myself into trouble in terms of not having the power to pull out of a tight hairpin once I've thrown the bike too quickly into a steep lean angle. Feels I'm hitting my tire limitations, instead of pushing the tires to the limit, then holding the line and riding that limit out through the rest of the turn.

To be perfectly honest, I want to learn how to ride this bike to the absolute limit of it's power -- but when you're coming into a hairpin pinging off the rev limiter and your roll-on consists of 2 seconds of acceleration until hitting the rev limiter again an needing to upshift mid-turn (which unsettles the bike) -- I cannot help but think I must find a lower elevation track to practice these skills.

Back to the drawing board once again. Don't want to change my gearing, because it works perfectly for the rest of my riding. Guess I've gotta learn how to slow it down before I can speed up.

This stuff is more beneficial to my mind-state than meditation. Gonna figure this out..

Thanks guys.

[csmith12]

Your answer seems all too simple mang... just enter the corner in the next higher gear so you don't run outta revs. Sure the roll on power will not be the same as with higher revs, sure it might be or feel slower at first but with enough laps and good feedback from the bike you will get back to your same lap times. But my bet would be on faster, a happy bike will make for a happy, confident rider and those riders can go faster.

Lemme throw this at ya…

Hairpins are super fun but can be tricky to find a really, really fast line. Many riders double apex them, some square them off, some take a wide, super late entry and late apex once only at the exit. Without seeing you ride the line through it, I would ask to try to find “your” line. At a pace that is 75% of your limit, go out and try to find lines that work. Once you find one that works, slowly bump up the pace while staying within that 75% limit. And keep listening to the bike like your doing.

How do you know you found a line that works?

[Aodrn]

I found the same problem when I started riding a 250 on track last year. I always needed 2000 more rpm. Csmith has it though. Early this season I just used a different gear going into corners. It felt slower, but honestly wasnt much slower. By the end of the corner you are cruising with much better drive. It took about 4 laps with this method and my times beat all my previous times.

[corksil]

In other news, I discovered this morning that my throttle-hand grip have come loose and has begun to spin on the throttle tube.

That is to say, I want a bigger bike so much that I have effectively torn the grip loose from the handlebar in an attempt to get "MORE GAS" out of this bike.

Anyways, that explains part of why the bike felt unstable and engine braking was unpredictable at best last time I hit the track...

For what it's worth..

[choneofakind]

...that also means you're gripping it too hard and getting too tense on it. 2 fingers is all you need on the throttle mang.

[csmith12]

This should be your goal, it takes time to get there though.

[adouglas]

I call this kind of scenario an "I saw God" moment.

I stopped whitewater kayaking because I had a few too many of those.