nyc suv runs over bikers

[Panda]

So you agree he pulled in front of him then slowed down immediately.

You just don't want to call it a brake check.

You are right though the accident was completely avoidable if he rider didnt swerve-in-front-of-the-SUV-and-slow-down-immediately.*

*known in other parts of the world as a brake check.

[subxero]

I could have been in a similar situation literally two weeks ago, but obviously I made smarter decisions and prevented the possibility.

Driving home with my wife and 2 girls in my truck I went to pass a guy who was going ~68mph in the left lane. So I went to pass them on the right going ~75 and what did they do? Obviously sped up to try and cut me off so I could not pass them before I got blocked by another car in the right lane.

So I continued to accelerate then realized this guy was a real D-bag and instead of risking an accident or anything else, I just slowed down, and let the guy have his way.
I could have easily kept speeding up then trying to force my way in front of them before getting blocked by a car in right lane.

Now lets say I did do that, pushed my way in front of them into the left lane and now I need to brake rapidly because we are now going 85-90mph and there are cars in front of me in left lane going slower. My rapid braking causes guy to hit me from behind. No biggie right? We pull over to hand accident. Guy is already road raging for no reason, now he hit me and is even more pissed so he approaches my truck in very aggressive manor. I'm frightened and since I am "protecting my family" I have the green light to just run him over and push his SUV out of the way and flee the scene right?

Lets think how that would have played out to the cops.... um me in prison with no more license. I "brake check" and initiate contact, then run the guy over and flee, does it matter that he was being a complete A-hole the whole time?

clearly this did not happen cuz I know you can't beat stupid and this guy was clearly stupid so I decided to take the high road and let him be the big **** for a while.

Note this A-hole hounded me for another 5 miles until I took my exit. Did I want to confront him and show him whats up? yeah, but again, I was protecting my family by being calm and responsible, not running people over driving like a lunatic and kept things from getting out of control in the first place.

[lgk]

i'm not sure what to call erratic/irrational motorcycle braking when in front of an SUV.

brake check sounds too technical...
i think suicide is a better term.

[lgk]

Originally Posted by subxero

snip...

you deescalated the situation.

the bikers in this case did not, matter of fact they took it to the limit.
they should have just just the truck pass, imo.

[Panda]

Originally Posted by subxero

I could have been in a similar situation literally two weeks ago, but obviously I made smarter decisions and prevented the...

It's very similar except you were not surrounded by a bunch if motorcycles going 40mph below the speed limit who were trying to shut down a highway. Then one of them pulls in front of you and slows down to try to make you stop. Then when you hit him the bikers block you in, surround you, and start hitting your car.

Other than that...totally similar.

C'mon...seriously...your example is ridiculous.

[jackliu239]

Originally Posted by subxero

I am not debating this, I am debating the use of the word brake check.

Which IMO is a rapid jolting braking maneuver meant to startle the person operating the vehicle behind the "brake checker"

I just don't think it was much of a "brake check", was it dumb, yes, was it reckless, yes, was it a contributing factor to the first accident and everything that ensued yes but I don't think the initial rear ending was completely unavoidable by the SUV that is all

Well break check is meant to check the other guy's response on breaking, and you can argue that if anyone respond fast enough, accident can be avoided, but sometimes you can't avoid it, so is this the problem of the ones started the break check or the person that failed to step on the break on time? I'm pretty sure traffic law states you are NOT allowed to deliberately break in front of another vehicle to see if they hit you or not.

[subxero]

Originally Posted by Panda

It's very similar except you were not surrounded by a bunch if motorcycles going 40mph below the speed limit who were trying to shut down a highway. Then one of them pulls in front of you and slows down to try to make you stop. Then when you hit him the bikers block you in, surround you, and start hitting your car.

Other than that...totally similar.

C'mon...seriously...your example is ridiculous.

how is it ridiculous? just saying "your example is ridiculous" has no substance to it
please give detailed explanation.
It was a very accurate and realistic scenario that could have happened. Sorry if you can not comprehend that.
Again, none of the bikers were interested in physical confrontation with this guy until he rear ended the biker, and you can't see what happens during the first stop after accident. Avoid that situation and this entire thing never happens.


+
i'm in rural PA, 10:1 says the guy had a handgun in the car.

[jackliu239]

Originally Posted by subxero

how is it ridiculous? just saying "your example is ridiculous" has no substance to it
please give detailed explanation.
It was a very accurate and realistic scenario that could have happened. Sorry if you can not comprehend that.
Again, none of the bikers were interested in physical confrontation with this guy until he rear ended the biker, and you can't see what happens during the first stop after accident. Avoid that situation and this entire thing never happens.


+
i'm in rural PA, 10:1 says the guy had a handgun in the car.

Well, in your scenarios, the person knows you are over taking them, and they know once you do, both of you will be traveling at 85 mph on a 55 mph speed limit highway, so both of you expected to slow down, which is normal, but what is normal about a motorcycle deliberately go in front of you for no reason and doing break check just for the sake to see if the car hits you?

[Panda]

Originally Posted by subxero

how is it ridiculous? just saying "your example is ridiculous" has no substance to it
please give detailed explanation.
It was a very accurate and realistic scenario that could have happened. Sorry if you can not comprehend that.
Again, none of the bikers were interested in physical confrontation with this guy until he rear ended the biker, and you can't see what happens during the first stop after accident. Avoid that situation and this entire thing never happens.


+
i'm in rural PA, 10:1 says the guy had a handgun in the car.

Your example is ridiculous in that it has absolutely no bearing on what happened in NY.

"Again, none of the bikers were interested in physical confrontation with this guy until he rear ended the biker, and you can't see what happens during the first stop after accident".

You can't possibly know this.

[subxero]

Originally Posted by Panda

Your example is ridiculous in that it has absolutely no bearing on what happened in NY.


You can't possibly know this.

again HOW SO?

I can just say random stuff to without anything to back it up as well

your comment makes no sense
your idea of what happened in NY is not accurate
you can't possibly know that I can't possibly now this

^see holds no bearing with out something to back it up

watch the video 20 biker ride directly past this SUV with out even as much as a glance.

I guess I need to take my own advice here from a few posts ago

[subxero]

Originally Posted by jackliu239

Well, in your scenarios, the person knows you are over taking them, and they know once you do, both of you will be traveling at 85 mph on a 55 mph speed limit highway, so both of you expected to slow down, which is normal, but what is normal about a motorcycle deliberately go in front of you for no reason and doing break check just for the sake to see if the car hits you?

the SUV was obviously aware of a dangerous situation and should have been on high alert the whole time.

a bunch of reckless bikers is cause for being cautious and expecting something unpredictable to happen.

[jackliu239]

Originally Posted by subxero

the SUV was obviously aware of a dangerous situation and should have been on high alert the whole time.

a bunch of reckless bikers is cause for being cautious and expecting something unpredictable to happen.

Ok, let me get your logic, a group of biker by default = dangerous trouble makers = acceptable for their reckless behavior.

So when they cause trouble to innocent bystanders, its the bystander's fault, because the the bystander should have accommodate their action to the ones acting recklessly. And when the reckless bikers caused the problem = the bystander's fault

ok, were you originally from the Democratic Republic of Congo?......

[Panda]

Originally Posted by subxero

again HOW SO?

I can just say random stuff to without anything to back it up

your comment makes no sense
you idea of what happened in NY is not accurate
you can't possibly know that I can't possibly now this

^see holds no bearing with out something to back it up

watch the video 20 biker ride directly past this SUV with out even as much as a glance.

I guess I need to take my own advice here from a few posts ago

My original post outlines why your example is unlike the incident that happened in NY. Therefore your assertion that "something similar" happened, in my mind, is untrue. It's dissimilar enough to me that I feel to bring it up is ridiculous.

Then to further prove your point you lay claim to information about a group that you can't possibly know based on actions that happened that aren't in clear view of the camera.

[FBNTH]

subxero the reason you reacted in the manner that you did was because of the perceived threat to you and your family. You had two choices, speed up or slow down. Since speeding up seem to make the situation worse and you believed there was a 10:1 chance that a hand gun could be involved, you decided to shift your strategy to a less confrontational one. Thankfully it worked.

Now lets say things didnt pan out like you wanted it to and the guy pulled in front of you and slowed down causing a collision. You two pull over to exchange insurance info. Since he is already in a raging mood, he approaches your truck in very aggressive manor with that handgun you were worried about. He is now 2 feet from the center of your front bumper pointing that hand cannon at you. What do you do? Do you gas it regardless of the fact you are going to run him over or do you just sit there?

We do not know what the situation being experienced inside the SUV was. That perceived threat could have been a reality in their eyes. My guess is the SUV felt out numbered being surrounded in a very hostile environment so his choice was flight and there is no question of what happened after that point.

[ForceofWill]

Originally Posted by subxero

the SUV was obviously aware of a dangerous situation and should have been on high alert the whole time.

a bunch of reckless bikers is cause for being cautious and expecting something unpredictable to happen.

Your example IS bullshit Joe. Doesn't matter how pissy you get about it. It's clear to anyone it's no where near the same situation.

Unless you're just trolling, then continue.

[subxero]

read more posts.

I think not one party is at fault here but both. It's just my opinion which last time I check I am aloud to have. I have expressed my opinion and given, examples, reasons, analogies, based off of real world experience, info I can accurately gather from the video as to why I feel this way unlike some others.

Ill say again for those who cant read, yes I feel the bikers are at fault, but at the same time the SUV made very poor decisions to instigate the situation beyond what it should have been and it bothers me that they will get off 100% for everything they had done.
These types of huge group hooligan rides happen all the time, so why is this the first time we really have a big story where they chase down a guy and beat him?
The crazy bikers are the constant so what is the variable?

[Sinister]

The whole point to a brake check is "intent". As was explained to me by a state trooper a little while back is intent makes all the difference no matter if it's a gunshot, a stabbing, a brake check, a pursuit.. the list goes on.

Example: If shoot someone who is sitting behind the wheel not offering any aggression towards you or people around you, then your intention was to cause them harm. Therefore have fun in prison for a while.

However, if you shot someone who was charging you with a tire iron over their head screaming, them hey. Self defense in a stand your ground state because your INTENTION was defending yourself


Same thing with brake checks.. If you brake because circumstances forced you to, then your INTENTION is not to cause an accident or begin an altercation or place someone (the person behind you) in danger

However if you brake for no other reason than to place someone behind you in danger, or force a confrontation etc etc... then that's where the "against the law" bit comes in.

[subxero]

Originally Posted by ForceofWill

Your example IS bullshit Joe. Doesn't matter how pissy you get about it. It's clear to anyone it's no where near the same situation.

Unless you're just trolling, then continue.

who's the troll again?

[subxero]

Originally Posted by Sinister

Same thing with brake checks.. If you brake because circumstances forced you to, then your INTENTION is not to cause an accident or begin an altercation or place someone (the person behind you) in danger

However if you brake for no other reason than to place someone behind you in danger, or force a confrontation etc etc... then that's where the "against the law" bit comes in.

I get what you are saying but the SUV was not in much danger from the motorcycle "brake checking" as we saw from the video, kind of the other way around. This is why it is MY OPINION that the biker was not trying to put the suv in danger, but just get them to slow down a little bit, nothing crazy.

If the biker instead of causing a slow down was forcing a stop, sure that is a little different. So then you stop, no biggie you are in a car, keep doors locked. Ok now they physically attack car, sure run over some people I don't care.

but we don't know as the SUV decided to run over the first biker before we got that far.

[jackliu239]

Originally Posted by subxero

These types of huge group hooligan rides happen all the time, so why is this the first time we really have a big story where they chase down a guy and beat him?
The crazy bikers are the constant so what is the variable?

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=3cd_1380579664

You are right, this is not the first time they chase down a guy to beat him, but from that link you can see, this is not the first time they are driving recklessly and breaking all sort of traffic laws. Combined with the fact that last year over 16 of the riders from the group was arrested with 55 bike confiscated, along with over 200 911 calls make about them, also combined with the fact that most of the bikers have no license plate... doesn't sound like a group of peaceful bikers just along mind their own business and suddenly a SUV runs them over....

[allanoue]

Up untill the bump there are asshats acting like asshats all around. After the bump the RR driver acted rationally and the "bikers" acted like a criminal gang.

[csmith12]

Originally Posted by subxero

This is why it is MY OPINION that the biker was not trying to put the suv in danger, but just get them to slow down a little bit, nothing crazy.

The way anyone defines "brake check" is irrelevant. Intent is the problem with that statement. Danger is relative to each person. I take no sides because I don't know the whole story but from what I see in the vid as a simple KY man. I see a person being backed into a corner. Back any animal into a corner and see what happens, it normally isn't pretty.

[subxero]

property can be fixed and holds no real value.

you can't fight a mob, let them do their stupid thing and be on their way, why challenge them and put your life at risk which is exactly what this guy did.

[jackliu239]

Originally Posted by subxero

property can be fixed and holds no real value.

you can't fight a mob, let them do their stupid thing and be on their way, why challenge them and put your life at risk which is exactly what this guy did.

So your wife and kids in the backseat, surrounded by a group of bikers who kicks your car, slashes your tire to prevent you from escaping, are you sure they are going to stop right there? Are you sure they are not going to beat you up and rape your wife and daughter?

You are going to take that chance?

[subxero]

Originally Posted by csmith12

The way anyone defines "brake check" is irrelevant. Intent is the problem with that statement. Danger is relative to each person. I take no sides because I don't know the whole story but from what I see in the vid as a simple KY man. I see a person being backed into a corner. Back any animal into a corner and see what happens, it normally isn't pretty.

I just don't feel like he was in a corner. There was a huge exit the whole time. all he had to do was pull off onto the shoulder and let them pass.
Should he have to to do this, no not by any means, but again it is the smart thing to do, why try and be a tough guy?

[subxero]

Originally Posted by jackliu239

So your wife and kids in the backseat, surrounded by a group of bikers who kicks your car, slashes your tire to prevent you from escaping, are you sure they are going to stop right there? Are you sure they are not going to beat you up and rape your wife and daughter?

You are going to take that chance?

vehicle will still move if I want it to. damage to the car is non issue, but yes if they try to gain access to the vehicle then yes I drive people over but the important thing is I would have never let it get that far in the first place and would not have rear-ended the first biker.

edit: It's all about possible outcomes for me and I just see so many poor decisions that just keep escalating the situation.
After running over the other biker the possible outcomes for this guy went from a beating to ending up dead real quick.
He wasn't going to get away

[csmith12]

Joe

I have always said... as seen in other threads.

"Put as much distance between you and stupidity as possible. You will live a longer and happier life."

Right or wrong, if I see 30+ bikes acting a fool, coming up on me, I am letting them past. 1 vs 30 is a loose on my part. Simple as that. Give me no escape though... it's a all together a different matter, the end result is likely to be 0 to 26.

[jackliu239]

Originally Posted by subxero

vehicle will still move if I want it to. damage to the car is non issue, but yes if they try to gain access to the vehicle then yes I drive people over but the important thing is I would have never let it get that far in the first place and would not have run over the first biker.

Report says after he stopped his car, they boxed him in, and starting to damaging his vehicle. If it were you, are you going to wait until they slash all 4 of your tires then wait and see if they just go away? Which at this point you have no chance of escaping if they start to breaking your windows and try to gain entrance, in his case, they run them over while he still have a chance of escaping. And I'm sure he didn't wanted to run the biker over and paralyze him for life, the guy parked himself and his bike in the path of the SUV's escape so he got run over.

Hindsight is always 20/20, you can argue that those bikers really just want to distort money from the SUV, but in the heat of the moment, people make decisions that they think best can save their life.

[subxero]

Originally Posted by jackliu239

Report says after he stopped his car, they boxed him in, and starting to damaging his vehicle. If it were you, are you going to wait until they slash all 4 of your tires then wait and see if they just go away? Which at this point you have no chance of escaping if they start to breaking your windows and try to gain entrance, in his case, they run them over while he still have a chance of escaping. And I'm sure he didn't wanted to run the biker over and paralyze him for life, the guy parked himself and his bike in the path of the SUV's escape so he got run over.

Hindsight is always 20/20, you can argue that those bikers really just want to distort money from the SUV, but in the heat of the moment, people make decisions that they think best can save their life.

in reference to my edit above.

by running over the biker you might have just turned most likely at worst a personal beating into almost certainly you and your family getting murdered. The suv had next to no chance of escape.

I might play the odds there, maybe just me?

[tfkrocks]

Originally Posted by subxero

in reference to my edit above.

by running over the biker you might have just turned most likely at best a personal beating into almost certainly you and your family getting murdered. The suv had next to no chance of escape.

I might play the odds there, maybe just me?

People who are scared aren't likely to spend the time weighing the odds when they need to make a decision right then. Also consider that not everyone may know how to react to a shitload of bikes swarming around them. Yes, the driver didn't take the best option possible but given the circumstances he could've been much worse off.

And really, what kind of average person on the fly just decides that hey, it's better to sit here and take a beating with my family rather than running?

[csmith12]

To play, or not to play is indeed the question Joe and 100% for sure a gray area.

To me it boils down to the level of what is acceptable or NOT acceptable and level of tolerance. If both parties have 0 tolerance and low acceptance, things get bad/out of control fast. I like to think, I am quick on my feet when dealing with such things but to error is human also.

[subxero]

Originally Posted by tfkrocks

And really, what kind of average person on the fly just decides that hey, it's better to sit here and take a beating with my family rather than running?

not exactly perfect translation but I hope people get the point.

http://www.ninjette.org/forums/showthread.php?t=134407

"It’s like that in every sport or performance, not just on a motorcycle."

edit:
Might be something more difficult for your average street bike rider to grasp as some people may ride their entire lives only crashing 1 time or not at all. I am willing to bet people that engage in other sport activities that have a much higher probability of you crashing like MTBing, off road motorcyles, extreme snowboarding, just to name a few I am familiar with, better understand the when to "react or not react" ideas a little better.
fractions of a second seem like an eternity and you learn from your mistakes
.........

[tfkrocks]

Originally Posted by subxero

not exactly perfect translation but I hope people get the point.

http://www.ninjette.org/forums/showthread.php?t=134407

"It’s like that in every sport or performance, not just on a motorcycle."
.........

Which is fine and dandy for someone who frequently expects risks, like bikers. It's expecting a lot of the average person though. The average person doesn't expect anything to happen in their everyday life. We all know how well cagers drive when things are relatively fine and dandy... Most people also just don't get into situations where they're under attack or just generally feeling very threatened. Frankly, I wouldn't expect to get attacked based on my general location.

Even if one plays out such scenarios in their own head, things are different in the moment. A person isn't going to have the proper instincts to react in the best manner unless they frequently encounter the situation and have practice in facing it. I highly doubt most people frequently get into such altercations. Once again, you're expecting way too much of the average person. That's great if you think you'd be prepared in such a situation, but you really can't expect the same of the general population.

[Motofool]

Originally Posted by bdavison

These were no bikers. It was just a group of people looking for trouble..............
These are no bikers. Real bikers don't act like that. These were a bunch of punks that deserve to go to jail...........

I very much agree with the above statements.

This is an example of what could happen when you are a sitting duck:
http://www.nbcmiami.com/news/local/T...126708808.html

The captured 16 years old killer confessed that this young couple immediately gave away the keys of the car and offered no resistance and that he pulled the trigger simply because "he did not see fear in their eyes".

What I trying to say is that it is wrong assuming that a person interfering your way or openly attacking you will always play by the rules of logic and decency.

In South Florida, LEOs' have been shot during simply traffic stops, impostor LEOs' have stopped and assaulted drivers, punks on sport bikes have endangered my family pulling stunts next to and in front of our car at 80 mph, punks initiating in gangs do whatever they are asked to belong; therefore, I don't stop for nobody other than a LEO.

If one must go to jail and the other one must die, I would rather be the first one.
I understand that the driver could have complied with the punks' demands and risk the outcome; but nobody asked him if he had an emergency and nobody let that "rebel" go.

I feel sorry for the guy that was run over after choosing belonging to that group of stupidity multipliers.
I feel sorry for the family forced into a weird situation.
I also feel sorry for the police doing nothing during this unfortunate event.

[subxero]

^truth and well stated

I guess for this whole thing I am at the point of just trying to get people to realize this didn't have to happen. Who was in the right, who was in the wrong either way. Simple decisions a person makes can have serious outcomes so don't just say "Good he ran over them, protect family" " I would have done the same thing"
I just want to encourage people the think things through and hopefully see that maybe there is a better alternative.

I have this convo with my wife on occasion, she can get pretty heated while driving a car in a hurry. And trying to explain to her that you don't know who is driving the other car so just let it go, what ever stupid thing they just did, let it go. They could be completely crazy with a gun and chase you down if you confront them and turn a stupid cut off into something crazy. It's not worth it.

several years ago in MD there was an accident involving people going to work. 2 vehicles have confrontation, angry guy in truck brake checks car, car swerves off highway to avoid rear end collision and goes over embankment, 2 dead.

you never know but at least you can try and take the best possible exit out.

This NY incident is one of those times, and its sad. Lots of people hurt and it didn't have to happen.

edit:
If someone holds up me and my family you are already at a potential point of no return and if you feel there is an exit that doesn't have to do with playing the odds of (is this guy going to just shoot us anyway) I'm going to take it, but again situation is everything, is it one guy with a gun? 2 guys with guns? 2 guys 1 gun? All these need to be weighed in an instant and a decision made

[jackliu239]

The lesson here is, don't break check something that have 10 time the mass than you. Angry SUV vs angry bikers, the SUV always wins.

I don't know about those guys but for me, every time I ride I'll do my best to avoid trouble instead of starting trouble with other cagers.

[subxero]

Originally Posted by jackliu239

One lesson here is, don't brake (normally not spelling Nazi but this is twice now) check something that have 10 time the mass than you. Angry SUV vs angry bikers, the SUV always wins.

I don't know about those guys but for me, every time I ride I'll do my best to avoid trouble instead of starting trouble with other cagers.

^fixed it for ya

[GreenNinja]

Originally Posted by subxero

I could have been in a similar situation literally two weeks ago, but obviously I made smarter decisions and prevented the possibility.

Driving home with my wife and 2 girls in my truck I went to pass a guy who was going ~68mph in the left lane. So I went to pass them on the right going ~75 and what did they do? Obviously sped up to try and cut me off so I could not pass them before I got blocked by another car in the right lane.

So I continued to accelerate then realized this guy was a real D-bag and instead of risking an accident or anything else, I just slowed down, and let the guy have his way.
I could have easily kept speeding up then trying to force my way in front of them before getting blocked by a car in right lane.

Now lets say I did do that, pushed my way in front of them into the left lane and now I need to brake rapidly because we are now going 85-90mph and there are cars in front of me in left lane going slower. My rapid braking causes guy to hit me from behind. No biggie right? We pull over to hand accident. Guy is already road raging for no reason, now he hit me and is even more pissed so he approaches my truck in very aggressive manor. I'm frightened and since I am "protecting my family" I have the green light to just run him over and push his SUV out of the way and flee the scene right?

Lets think how that would have played out to the cops.... um me in prison with no more license. I "brake check" and initiate contact, then run the guy over and flee, does it matter that he was being a complete A-hole the whole time?

clearly this did not happen cuz I know you can't beat stupid and this guy was clearly stupid so I decided to take the high road and let him be the big **** for a while.

Note this A-hole hounded me for another 5 miles until I took my exit. Did I want to confront him and show him whats up? yeah, but again, I was protecting my family by being calm and responsible, not running people over driving like a lunatic and kept things from getting out of control in the first place.

Your situation was not in the news because you decided it wasn't worth the hassle.The difference between your situation and the NY one was that you didn't try to confront him. If they did the same thing and didn't try to slow him down, this wouldn't be in the news. If they would have just let him get ahead for a few miles and then resume activity then it would have been fine. The beginning of the video shows that the bikers were passing up the SUV. They could have just left him in the dust and left it at that instead of trying to confront him. I'm going to quote an earlier post in this thread that someone said "lots of bad decisions made all around". If the SUV was the dbag then the bikers could have just let him be a dbag and ignore him. It is like being at a bar and a drunk guy gets all in your face. If you don't bicker back at him, then it probably won't escalate. I know the bikers are saying that he was being a dbag prior to the video but the only evidence that is not hearsay is the video. If you base it on just the video, it shows the bikers were the aggressors and not vice versa. If the SUV wanted to intentionally cause bodily harm, he could have ran that guy(in all black) over we see closest to the video.

[LNasty]

This company is offering to retrofit his SUV for free if video get 5,000,000 views

Link to original page on YouTube.

[NevadaWolf]

So, watching that video, with the baseball bat (?) and the gun, each impact was in a slightly different place and did result in damage to the window. What would have happened if either of those was used repeatedly in the exact same spot? Would it eventually break through?