Lost it for a moment... just not sure what

[Toly]

On my usual commute route, there is a highway on-ramp, a right turn of about 90 degrees, with a slight incline and a nice curve to it. There, I loved to lean FZ07 over, almost scraping pegs and gunning it mid-turn... the more I gunned it, the more planted it felt, and the better drive was out of the corner. The Duke 390, being weaker, doesn't give me such planted, slingshot-like feeling out of that corner. Even if I were to redline it, I wouldn't get such a nice drive out of it...

Anyway, this morning it was a bit raining, so when I approached the same corner in the wet, I decided to take it easy... then the habit took over, and I rolled on a bit... the Duke seemed happier, so I rolled on some more, and at that moment, the bike wobbled. Nothing much, but certainly noticeable. I was certainly surprised that the fabled Metzelers lost it in the wet so easy. It recovered nicely by itself, and the rest of the ride was uneventful. But for the life of mine, I can't figure out whether I lost traction on the front, or on the rear
I was on a shallow incline going up, leaned no more than 40 degrees, with maybe 65% throttle rolled on (assertively, but smoothly).

Was it a bit too much power to the rear that let it go, or was it that the front that got a bit too light? Can someone pls chime in and explain?

[JohnnyBravo]

Too many variables are unknown... Maybe it was just a slick spot
I always take it easy in the rain

[Triple Jim]

My money would be on the rear slipping a little. Both tires had similar loading until you added throttle, and then the rear was loaded more than the front.

Also, whenever I've had the front tire slip in a turn, it's been really obvious it was the front. The bike is suddenly leaning too much for the actual turning you're doing, and you have to turn the wheel more and hope it catches before the lowside hapens. I think you'd know if that happened.

[Motofool]

Originally Posted by Toly

......... Anyway, this morning it was a bit raining,.........
I was on a shallow incline going up, leaned no more than 40 degrees, with maybe 65% throttle rolled on (assertively, but smoothly).

Was it a bit too much power to the rear that let it go, or was it that the front that got a bit too light? Can someone pls chime in and explain?

• A lot of rain is much better than a little.
• Going up overloads the rear and lightens the front.
• 40 degrees on wet pavement and cold tires (by water) and normal pressure (excessive for warming the rubber) may induce a little too much lateral force (@ 80% of total weight of bike+you) for available traction, especially on a oily patch of cold pavement.

More here:
https://www.ninjette.org/forums/showthread.php?t=162183

Front that quits gripping tends to lighten the steering and under-steer the body of the bike.
Rear that quits gripping tends to over-steer the body of the bike.

[shift957]

Typically, you won't slide the front unless you overload it (off throttle or braking) or hit something slippery (tar snakes, oil, etc), in which case your rear tire would probably hit it and slide too. Sounds to me like you lost the rear briefly rolling it on.

[Toly]

Thank you! The rain was brief but strong. I was just surprised the tires lost it so easy. Probably you're right, the road surface was not that clean to begin with.

On the way back it also rained, and the bummer is, I lost all confidence in the tires in the wet... I totally feel for the poor b**d Lorenzo now...

[Triple Jim]

On public roads in the rain, it's way too easy to have a spot of oil or other crap that's very slippery, and you just can't tell it's there. I know if I push turns in the rain, eventually I'm going to find one of those slippery spots and go down, so I wait until it's dry to play.

[JohnnyBravo]

I bobbled the front on some dirt in a corner once; when the front gets loose you know it.
I'm not a fan of riding in the rain at all, especially not when the rain just starts up.

[akima]

When it first starts raining after a period of dry, the dirt and grime on the road turns slimy and grip is drastically reduced. After it has been raining for a while that slimy layer gets washed away and there is far more grip available.

I'm not sure the above applies in your situation, but I've mentioned it as a possibility.

[EternalNewb]

On a different note, were you still adjusting your lean angle? I know I've done that thing where you add lean and throttle at the same time, and that can lead to a lowside in no time.

[Toly]

Yes, it was simultaneously increasing lean angle and a throttle roll-on. I never had a problem in the dry. The road could have been somewhat grimy, but I have a gut feel it was more the fault of the tires. I guess i need to try agiain in the wet, on a clean tarmac..

[csmith12]

Originally Posted by Toly

Yes, it was simultaneously increasing lean angle and a throttle roll-on. I never had a problem in the dry. The road could have been somewhat grimy, but I have a gut feel it was more the fault of the tires. I guess i need to try agiain in the wet, on a clean tarmac..

Never just blame the tires... there are no less than 10 reasons/combinations that could have caused your wobble.

1. adding lean (steering) + throttle
2. tight on bars
3. throttle error (too much/too little)
4. mid corner steering correction
5. too much speed for traction conditions
6. too much lean for traction conditions
7. rain cooled off tire (not adjusting to this is a RIDER ERROR in judgement not a tire problem)
8. rain brought up oils on pavement (worst just after rain starts)
9. tire air pressure to high/low for conditions (again rider judgement error)
10. poor line for conditions
11. other unknown poor surface condition
12. ect... ect... ect... ect...

It would be very wise to figure out what happened or changed so you can adjust going forward. Again, never blindly blame the tires. Mystery crashes suck...

[Toly]

Well, I was experimenting with lean and the throttle in the wet, so it was not as much of an error, rather, a surprising discovery.
But let's say it was rider's mistake of being too aggressive for conditions... then we conclude that on the wet road, at about 3% incline going up, lean angle of 35-40 degrees and about 0.3g of acceleration, we would be approaching grip limit on the rear.

Which means these Metzelers suck in the wet. Either that, or the road surface was somewhat slippery. I really hope it's the latter.

[Misti]

Originally Posted by Toly

Yes, it was simultaneously increasing lean angle and a throttle roll-on. I never had a problem in the dry. The road could have been somewhat grimy, but I have a gut feel it was more the fault of the tires. I guess i need to try agiain in the wet, on a clean tarmac..

Adding lean and throttle at the same time is a dangerous combination, even more so in the wet. It sounds like you are getting away with making certain errors in the dry because of the added grip, but in the wet they become much more noticeable. You are lucky you didn't crash.

Definitely sounds like rear end slip to me, you added too much throttle and too much lean at the same time. A safer bet, in both wet and dry is to get the lean angle set and then roll on "smoothly evenly and constantly throughout the remainder of the turn" Keith Code.

You also mentioned in the original post that you like to "gun it" mid corner...this makes me feel like you may be waiting to roll on the gas and then giving it too much at once.

[Toly]

You guys are probably right... I usually roll on when straightening up, but sometimes I gun it while still leaning in... I think. Need to re-visit those corners and observe myself
So now we're getting an idea of what sucks in the rain... and likely it ain't Metzelers Thanks!

[JohnnyBravo]

[Misti]

Originally Posted by Toly

You guys are probably right... I usually roll on when straightening up, but sometimes I gun it while still leaning in... I think. Need to re-visit those corners and observe myself
So now we're getting an idea of what sucks in the rain... and likely it ain't Metzelers Thanks!

Hahahah, awesome response I'd take a careful look on when you roll on the gas and how much and see if making a few changes helps! Ride safe!