Riding in the wind

[algerath]

It has been really windy the last couple days and it was driving me nuts until I tried his suggestions, it made a world of difference.

I tucked down REALLY low, like laying on the tank low, just looking right over the top of the screen. I gripped the tank with my knees, that helped me make sure my arms stayed loose, any OH S**T hang on reactions were with my knees and not my arms. I rolled on a little more throttle and went with it and I went from nerve wracking to having fun almost instantly like flipping a switch it was dramatic.

I think it is mostly the staying LOW and steering with your feet/legs/weight, but also overcoming your natural reactions of hanging on tight and slowing down. It is counter-intuitive to me in this situation to tuck in like I am racing and let her rip but thats basically what I did and it worked well.

[CC Cowboy]

Riding in the wind is all a matter of being relaxed and let the wind push you around. Here is a video of a guy at speed (which is like riding in a 170+MPH wind.

http://www.onthethrottle.com/content/view/59/38/

[DRivero]

Ohh, the wind really messes with my head on the 250! Straight at me, it's not so bad, but when a crosswind punches me from the left or right, it's VERY nerve-wracking. I immediately slow down, though I see the concensus seems to be that faster is better. Doesn't feel that way to me, but then I'm just a big chicken-sh*t!

[GeorgiaHooligan]

A bad crosswind made me sweat a little the other day. Bad crosswinds should be avoinded. Aircraft wont land if crosswinds are blowing. I wouldnt mind having a little more weight, the 250 gets blown around pretty easily.

[GeorgiaHooligan]

Cars have been flipped due to crosswinds. The faster you go in a crosswind, the worse it is.

[headshrink]

Riding close behind a b747 as it's engines are spooling up to full throttle is ILL ADVISED!!!! Riding on the hwy with winds under 20kts is just "dancing."

[headshrink]

Originally Posted by GeorgiaHooligan

A bad crosswind made me sweat a little the other day. Bad crosswinds should be avoided. Aircraft wont land if crosswinds are blowing. I wouldn't mind having a little more weight, the 250 gets blown around pretty easily.

You're 1/2 right about the planes landing. Runways are designed to follow the prevailing winds, thus reducing the frequency of crosswinds for a given runway. So, say the prevailing wind at an airport tends to come from a heading of, say 90 degrees, the runway would be build at a heading of 90 degrees (and 270 degrees). So, assuming them winds are a blowin' like usual, planes would take off and land into the direction of the wind.... at a heading of 90 degrees. Which, incidentally would be called Rwy 9 in that direction, and Rwy 27 in the opposite direction. Of course if you have parallel runways, they would be Rwy 9L & 9R respectively, triplets add Rwy 9C, you get the point. Some airports do , however, have runways for crosswinds.... but these are likely only to be built if wind from that direction is reasonably common. Notice LAX (KLAX), which is a rather large airport, has no runways for crosswinds..... this is because them winds are always a blowin' from the same direction there. Chicago on the other hand, you know "the windy city" has runways in all sorts of directions. So, say you are landing, there is a light to moderate wind, and you don't have the option of landing into the wind..... you just give that rudder a good kick in the arse, fly sideways-ish ("crab") until right before touch-down when you kick it straight. This is the most common method of landing in crosswinds. There are some great videos of that on youtube. The videos would likely be the more severe ones, as you generally will always use SOME rudder...

Sorry for the completely unnecessary and long winded (no pun intended) explanation of something that wasn't even asked. I needed to come up for air from all that re-jetting reading I have been doing, and feel like I know SOMETHING! I'll call it my therapy for the day (sorry to subject you to it).

[Banzai]

Originally Posted by tonybhall

Try this...

When you get hit by a wind on one side, keep your foot on the peg but push your knee out into the wind. Here's what happens...

When you get hit on one side by wind, it pushes you in the direction of the wind. But if you put your knee out into the wind, it catches the wind and creates drag almost like a parachute. It will actually counteract the force of the wind pushing you. It really well.

That's textbook. I'll see if I can find the reference. I swear I read that somewhere recently!

[Banzai]

Originally Posted by GeorgiaHooligan

Cars have been flipped due to crosswinds. The faster you go in a crosswind, the worse it is.

Guy got flipped off a local high rise bridge recently due to a gust of wind!

james-river-bridge-reopens-after-fatal-motorcycle-crash

[GeorgiaHooligan]

Ive read many of articles that stress the fact that a strong crosswind can be fatal. Just like aircraft on a gyroscope. Yes planes are traveling at a higher rate of speed, but once the center axis has been stressed to a certain point your going to go over. Simple laws of physics..

[GeorgiaHooligan]

when i worked the as a ramp agent for a commercial airline, I saw a few planes pull out of a landing due to the crosswinds. Pretty cool too watch.

[GeorgiaHooligan]

Im afraid your wrong bob.

[Alex]

Crosswind landings on Youtube. Some look beyond scary.

[headshrink]

Originally Posted by GeorgiaHooligan

when i worked the as a ramp agent for a commercial airline, I saw a few planes pull out of a landing due to the crosswinds. Pretty cool too watch.

If they never landed in crosswinds, you probably wouldn't have seen that much.... they wouldn't have made that initial attempt to end up aborting anyways.

Originally Posted by GeorgiaHooligan

I'm afraid your wrong bob.

How is that? (reaching for textbook) I'm not saying, certainly didn't mean to give the impression, that it is simply no big deal and never an issue.... There is a threshold as to when it just isn't safe, of course... but it is done every day. Planes also do go-arounds all the time for all sorts of reasons, crosswinds can be a common one. I got a little white knuckled last time I flew into Sydney (could have been one of those youtube videos), but the pilot pulled it off, and I am here today. My first memory of learning from my dad about landing in crosswinds was somewhere between age 5 and 10. I come from a family of private pilots, so if I am wrong, I would like to know more specifically where I am wrong so that I can be corrected.... not trying to one-up you here.

[zenrush]

Originally Posted by Alex

Crosswind landings on Youtube. Some look beyond scary.

That landing at 1:31 over Hong Kong is amazing. I flew in the AF on C130's for 8 years and crosswind landings always made me appreciate how truly impressive a good pilot is.

[Scott1620]

Regarding wind, last weekend when I was on the highway/bridges and had some crosswinds i noticed that if I tuck the elbow that is in the direction of where the wind is coming from and stick the opposite elbow out, I felt more stable. I think the opposite elbow was kind of acting as a rudder to counter act the wind pushing me...

[tjkamper]

I've gotten used to the wind. I travel normal speed, and find I have to lean towards the wind. I also tuck more to limit the surface area.

Yesterday was really windy. As I was going down the freeway I found myself leaning by about 10degrees just to go straight.

[addy126]

If its a hellish windy Texas day I just flip to the V-900 cruiser... that pretty much takes care of that. Really its few and far between when the N-250 won't do the trick.

[JeffM]

Rode home yesterday and got hit by a strong gust - 25-30 mph. The first one almost always freaks me out. Relaxing and slowing down a bit are the key things IMHO. I read somewhere that sticking a knee out (on the windward side) helps. Anyone else hear of that technique?

[headshrink]

Not to beat a dead horse on the whole "landing in crosswind" sub-topic.... OK, maybe a little.

[KJohnson21]

Originally Posted by JeffM

I read somewhere that sticking a knee out (on the windward side) helps. Anyone else hear of that technique?

Yes it can help. But it's not a magic bullet that'll make the whole situation bearable. As you get more comfortable with handling the wind, that technique can help in certain conditions.

[JeffM]

Thanks.

[little green menace]

Had my first spell in very strong winds, got pushed into another lane fortunately nothing about!

Great advise on here guys, very useful, cheers

[spooph]

Some great advice in this thread, not any that I can see that's incorrect.

I would like to share my take, which might be repetitious to some...

The key factor in wind is relaxing. And make sure to ride faster than the wind. Not just certain parts of your body, but everything.... If you relax enough, the bike moves out from underneath you in a gust, and returns to it's previous state after the gust. Your knee gets drawn out automatically when and where it should. The front tire just seems to do what it's meant to do, steer the bike in a straight line.... It's kind of freaky how easy it is to keep a bike straight in low-mid force gusts....

The problem comes when the cross-wind is greater than your speed. IE: a 50mph cross-wind or gusts when you're traveling at 30mph. If it's a 50mph wind, ride 60mph. If it's an 80mph gust, you'd be best at 90mph, at semi to full tuck, and completely relaxed.

As others have mentioned leaning the wrong way in a turn, leaning left going around a right-hand turn is an experience for sure! One every rider should have at least once!

Personally, I love riding in the wind, it makes a straight road interesting!

Good luck to all ya'lls out there!

[wvninja]

Originally Posted by headshrink

I like riding in the wind, it's fun
I put my shoulder into it.

[Talonne]

I haven't found a better way around it other than just clamping on for dear life with my legs. Sometimes the wind requires a constant (but tiny) amount of countersteering for me to actually stay in the lane.

I find that I hate tucking down for crosswinds. It feels like I have less control over the bike when tucked, and I certainly don't want to be feeling that when the bike is being pushed around.

[demp]

Originally Posted by Alex

If I've found myself riding in high winds, I have learned that riding slower doesn't help the situation. If you have a choice to be riding 45 mph or 60 mph, for example, the effect of crosswinds is more prevalent at 45 compared to 60. Doesn't mean you should go faster than you feel comfortable, but a little speed does provide more inertia in the direction you want to go, as well as more gyroscopic stability from the bike.

I have to agree with Alex on this one, I remember a few times when it got really windy out, I'd be alright at higher speeds... but coming off the highway onto a 70 kph zone I'd be going **** **** ****! I can't stop now! it's too windy!

The 250 is farrr far far better than the 125 (honda) in the wind, I'm guessing its the extra weight

[ladyrocket]

I have yet to experienced harsh wind while riding (Just bought a bike a few months ago) but the road i take to school can get pretty bad, it even pushs my beefy car around. I have to go between two fields for about two miles with a speed limit of 55 and the cops loooove to chill with their radar throughout that stretch. I recently bought a smoked double bubble windscreen and i love tucking under it. It is much better than the stock (many others agree from looking at the reviews). It looks good and really helps with the wind. For the people who are always riding in wind I would definitely suggest it.

Just my thought

[JMcDonald]

Since we are kinda bumping an old thread, I figured I'd add some more.

Originally Posted by spooph

If you relax enough, the bike moves out from underneath you in a gust, and returns to it's previous state after the gust.

+1000 . Relax, and remember you don't have to panic unless you're in serious danger of hitting something. I've had gusts blow me all the way past the doubles yellows, but I just let the bike correct itself and Im good to go.

Remember, in a cross-wind, you are sitting on top of a 3x6' sail that weighs 400lbs. Fighting to keep it going exactly strait is only going to freak you out as you realize it's pretty much impossible :P .

Another tip, for general riding, would be to stay toward the windward side. That is, if you are going East and the wind is coming from the South, stay toward the far South side of the lane. That way if a gust hits you, you've got a good 6 or 7 feet of wiggle room before you even need to begin worrying.

I've always ridden bikes a lot in windy Oklahoma, and the effect is actually similar, though of course less pronounced. So, it wasn't completely alien to me. However, I got used to it pretty quickly after I realized the bike will return to where you want it to go if with nothing but the slightest bar pressure. Now I'll ride with one hand in 40mph cross-gusts, leaning 10-degrees off center, like "whatevs, y'all." :P

Originally Posted by spooph

Your knee gets drawn out automatically when and where it should. The front tire just seems to do what it's meant to do, steer the bike in a straight line.... It's kind of freaky how easy it is to keep a bike straight in low-mid force gusts....

Yup! I don't recall my knees every doing anything weird, but yeah once you get used to it the bike just seems to know where its going.

[sendler]

Old thread but good thread. May as well paste my posts on the topic in.
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Here are some posts from another forum you might find interesting on bike performance in cross winds. This is a little tough to follow without all the other posts debating the topic back and forth but this should be a good start to the conversation here.
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Let's talk about the riding dynamics of cross winds. Side winds can move you off line in many different ways. By pushing the entire bike straight to the side. This is probably the only situation where increasing the total mass of the bike/ rider/ luggage will help. I believe other mechanisms of cross winds that actually cause the bike to steer will be more disruptive. Cross winds pushing on the side area of the bike/ rider/ luggage that is above the center of gravity of the roll axis will cause the bike to lean and actually turn off line. Worse yet, blowing the rider's head and torso to one side of an upright, yet comfy riding position, such as on the CBR250R, again makes the bike turn the wrong way. The next thing that probably happens is the rider will push back with their arms which applies a counter steering manuver to the handle bars which makes the bike lean the wrong way even further. All of this happens in a domino effect blowing you off line. Super Sport bikes with their ultra low and narrow clip on handle bars place the rider in a better position to resist all of this in the de facto riding postion they impart by lowering the rider's upper body, and so, the side wind center of pressure, by more firmly bracing the rider due to much more weight on the arms, and, by greatly reducing the leverage of unwanted counter steering commands because of the narrow bars. But who wants to ride in stop and go traffic or on a four hour highway trip in that position when you can have bars that let you sit up to get a better view of the car that is about to pull out in front of you from the side street, or, just to stretch out once in a while. Many of you may think it is dangerous or embarrassing to ride while laying on the tank but I feel very alert and safe on the CBR250R in this position and all of the perceived short commings of low power and light tires/ total mass, vanish when you do. The bike will roll on from 65 mph to 80 in order to pass with great ease because you are wasting less power to push forward through the air resistance. Also, it is my experience that the ill effects cross winds are completely negated. What I see with sidewinds while commuting on the highway is that when you lay on the tank, you accomplish two things. The center of pressure of the side area including the excellent faring, wheels, and your body, is lowered to the point that it is actually lower than the cg on the roll axis which causes the wind to push more on the bottom of the bike/ rider, than the top, forcing the bike to steer itself into the cross wind. It is an eerily magic sensation and very addictive. Also, the mass of your torso above the center of gravity on the roll axis is anchored to the tank so you don't get blown into leaning off of the bike the wrong way and you don't have to counter push on the wrong end of the bars to stabilize yourself. Honda did a great job designing the ergonomics of the tank shape. It is very comfortable to lay on and works perfectly in this position to take some weight off of the seat and arms for hours of riding comfort and provide a magic carpet ride that couldn't care less for cross winds.
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I finally got a good explanation of the mechanism responsible for the ability of a good motorcycle like the CBR250R to actually lean it's self into a cross wind with no rider input. It seems it is as simple as the action of the side load on the trail of the front steering geometry. Ken Fry writes

"Yes, most bikes are self-correcting. A gust causes the steering axis to translate away from the wind side. (The gyro effect of the rear wheel tends to restrain the bike's rolling more than it prevents the frame from yawing, because of the leverages involved. The frame yaws, and the steering head translates.) The contact patch, due to trail, is behind the extension of the steering axis. Therefore, in a crosswind from the left, the steering axis moves slightly to the right. The contact patch is then slightly to the left of the steering axis, meaning that the bike is steering itself to the right. This banks the bike to the left, into the crosswind.

You can take your hands off the bars entirely, and this feature works just fine (provided you don't have a bike prone to tank slappers)

If you really freeze your muscles and clamp onto the handlebars with a death grip, you can defeat this built-in trait. Taking the weight off the grips by tucking and putting your chest on the tank makes the effect more pronounced.

On some bikes, cranking in a lot of steering damper will interfere with this self- correction, and the bike will tend to wander."
Thanks Ken.
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More related ramblings from another forum:
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Motorcycle aerodynamics, a slippery and windy, slope? - Fuel Economy, Hypermiling, EcoModding News and Forum - EcoModder.com
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I am not a suspension designer but I can tell you this from riding 6,000 miles this year. Most of it on relatively straight divided highway at 65mph and often in side wind conditions. My motorcycle is very noticeably self correcting in side winds. I could demonstrate this to you "no handed" by laying on the tank and momentarily letting go. But you have to lay on the tank while riding to get the best effect which most people find self conscious or uncomfortable. Other riders suggest "riding with your knees" to take the weight and stiffness of your upper body off of the handle bars. This helps free up the steering but doesn't work quite as well. Maybe this is why you haven't personally ever noticed it.
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If your upper body is sitting high and free from the bike as most people do, it will spoil the effect that the steering geometry has to roll the motorcycle into the side wind. Cross winds pushing on the side area of the bike/ rider/ luggage that is above the center of gravity of the roll axis will cause the bike to lean over and actually turn off line the wrong way. Worse yet, blowing the rider's head and torso to one side of an upright, yet comfy riding position of a standard bike, pushes the rider out of position from over the balance line which has made the system lean and turn the wrong way. The next thing that probably happens is that the rider will try push their upper body back over the bike against the wind with their far side arm which applies a counter steering manuver to the handle bars. The wrong way. Which makes the bike lean the wrong way even further. All of this happens in a domino effect very quickly, blowing you off line. If you sit up.
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Super Sport bikes with their ultra low and narrow clip on handle bars place the rider in a better position to avoid all of this in the de facto riding postion they impart by lowering the rider's upper body, and so, the side wind center of pressure. And further, reducing the leverage that the side wind has to push the rider's upper body off the bike. My CBR250R offers the best of both worlds with high, wide bars for sitting up in traffic, and, perfect ergonomics to lay down on the tank to get out of the wind in order to let the suspension use it's trail to lean the bike into the wind.
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To answer your questions:
Motorcycle dynamics of turning and balance are very complicated.
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Bicycle and motorcycle dynamics - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
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Motorcycles have trail. The contact patch of the front tire is behind the steering axis. When the side wind pushes the whole bike to the right, the contact patch is stuck to the road behind the steering axis. The steering axis, which is in front of the patch, is free to move to the right more than the contact patch which is stuck to the road. The wheel has just torqued and steered to the right. Which causes a counter steering lean of the bike to the left through the combination of gyroscopic precession leaning the the wheel,
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Precession - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
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and the tire steering out to the right from under the cg on the roll axis which stayed where it was.
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Camber thrust - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
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Cornering force - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
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The motorcycle has just leaned to the left into the wind. Automatically. The same as if you had consciously pulled on the right handle bar to initiate a counter steering maneuver. If the center of pressure of the side area of the rider/motorcycle is below the cg of the roll axis, this would also tend to lean the bike into the wind. Or at least stop the distribution of the wind pressure from fighting the roll force of the counter steering trail if the wind pressure is at least neutral to the cg.
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Trail also tends to make the bike stand up from a lean. When the bike leans to the left, there is an increasing vector of gravitational force pulling on the left side of the bike. To the side of the steering axis. Which is again free to move more than the patch. Causing a counter steering torque to the left which makes the bike lean and steer it's tires back under the bike until it is upright again.
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The more the bike leans, the less area is presented to the side wind and, the more gravitational force is applied to the trail to make the bike stand up. Careful design has made a nice balance in the amount, and vertical distribution of the side area of the CBR250R, and the amount of trail, in order to balance the forces so the bike "knows how much to lean" into a side wind.
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It was very windy yesterday. A perfect day to experiment and experience the profound ability of the CBR250R to self correct it's line in gusty side winds. I had been challenged on another forum to prove that I am not subconsciously steering the bike as it magically leans itself into the wind by riding no handed. It still works just the same. I still don't have a camera but will post some video proof eventually when I get one. When gusts of side wind hit the bike, the nose stays right on line while the wheels only, seem to ride out from under you WITH the wind to lean the top of the bike INTO the wind by the just right amount. I have been asking all of the riders I hang out with and am surprised that very few have ever taken notice of this. Maybe because it works much better if you lower and anchor yourself by riding on the tank. Some people vehemently argue the opposite saying that you must always counter steer the bike to actively fight the wind at all times. Not so for me. It is actually fun to go out on windy days. Riding a really aerodynamic motorcycle at speed is not unlike flying in a light aircraft. To be connected to the wind and be a part of it all and let the bike work it's magic.

[sendler]

Here's an interesting photo showing how a bike automatically leans into a 50 mph side wind blast coming out of the fans at the left.
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[JeffM]

LOL - Look at the middle panel. Most of the observers are all running for cover.

[userjh160]

I think I have it now, after being thrown off the road by a big gust of wind, I have been afraid to ride on windy days. Today if was pretty windy and I thought I have been practicing my countersteering ALOT and I am ready now to face my demons. So this morning we went out, I was real nervous, I kept telling myself if I don't get back on my bike on a windy day, I might as well hang it up and get rid of it. We had some really nice gusts of wind coming from both sides every now and then and the bike and I just teamed up and did it. I was actually countersteering thru the gusts and I didn't even realize it until we stopped and I had to ask if there were gusts similar to the one that blew me off the road, and yes there were. I am going to keep going on windy days and not let it stop me anymore -- BRING IT ON WIND GUSTS!!!

[DRivero]

I had an incident not long ago that taught me a very valuable lesson about riding in the wind. My bike, although it's a 500, is not a heavy bike and it seems to me that the wind really affects it. One this particular day, we were riding on a highway I'd not been on the bike with before, and it was WINDY. Eventually I got so freaked out, I exited the highway in tears, and I told Craig to go without me. Of course he wouldn't, so after awhile I got back on. Here is the lesson: RELAX. RELAX. RELAX. I found out (I know, duh) that the bike responds to body language....like a horse. Its hard to explain exactly, but basically.....the motorcycle acts like you. If you're stiff with terror, it is SO much harder to control. If you're loose and relaxed,the bike does what it naturally does. Yes, you still have to countersteer, but test it out....it really works.

I know, not news.....so sue me!

[sendler]

A tense rider is like an overtightened steering damper. It kills the self correcting ability of the front end geometry on the highway during side wind blasts which will start the correction much faster than a rider can observe the problem and consciously take corrective action. Crouch down on the tank and grip with your knees to take all of the weight off of the bars. Let the bike roll and wander a little and don't try to fight every little movement. It will lean itself into the wind. If this isn't enough then you can countersteer and hang your knee and shoulders into the windward side to correct even more. Stay on the road! Even if you feel you are doing a maximum lean corner just to go straight.

[headshrink]

Originally Posted by sendler

A tense rider is like an overtightened steering damper. .

Yup. This also reminds me of putting your weight on your bars when in a tight turn. I make a point of squeezing with my knees on cloverleafs, and feel an immediate difference if my setup and posture is wrong (often is).

[userjh160]

Yes I know what you mean, I kept feeling myself tense up and noticed I had a "death grip" on my bars every now and then. I would loosen up, get relaxed in the shoulders and let my bike lead me thru the wind. It does make a difference when your tense, I could feel the difference.

[JeffM]

Back on page one, two years ago, I stated something to the affect of relax and slow down in crosswinds. Experience has taught me that slowing down may be incorrect.

I find that relaxing and maintaining your speed might be the best course in high winds. Motorcycles become more stable at speed and slowing down might get you blown around a bit more.

Jeff

[sendler]

I slow down if caught in a bad thunderstorm and the water is stacking up deep. Sometimes you have to decide how fast you really want to be going when you hit the ground.

[userjh160]

I don't think I am ready for rain or bad storms, I try to check the weather if I know I am going to be out for a while, any chance of rain. . . no riding for me, I feel I need more experience for that