Turbo250.com - My Turbo Build Blog

[swarfman64]

Sounds like good advice to me. With the torque the turbo adds it feels like 10000rpm changes are suited. Eventually the dyno will tell.

[garth285]

Originally Posted by swarfman64

I wish I could help with your rpm problem. While I'm a long way off tuned at 9psi, a standard ignition system with cr9e plugs at 0.027", 25l/r pump and a 0.5:1 rising rate reg seem to be keeping up easily. I've got a new ignition map that seems to work with EGT 1150 and AFR 12.5:1 full load. I've got an old noisy motor so in stopping at 12000rpm. It looks like your pump/reg etc setup is better than mine so its gotta be something simple.Attachment 34522. I'm not saying that this map is great because its street tuned but gut feeling, but it is letting me go full noise to 12000rpm low egt and no knocking.

Very nice, yeah looks like you have it turned down to about 26-27* of timing. I tried turning my timing down to 25* and no change, I am convinced its my ECU. I know my fuel pressure is solid, my plugs are gaped down to .023 I Think it was (CR9E's), the coils ohm out, I dont think the coils are a weak point as they are also the same coils that are ran in 1000's and guys running nitrous or turbo on them dont have issues, I dont think its a wastegate issue because the boost holds fine and even with it disconnected it does the same thing. I dont think its the "tuning" side of it because I have tried everything from turning down the timing to turning it up, and I have been able to make the bike go rich or lean and still wont clear up, the bike hits a rev limiter, no knocking just a early limiter.

I know I'm dealing with all new territory since I have all ninja 300 stuff on my bike but I also found out woolich had some rev limiter issues with the zx-10r's so I'm hoping maybe it just has a software glitch.

I flashed the ecu back to stock and I am going to drop it in a stock bike and see what it does.

[Racer x]

I don't think you have a coil problem. But the 1000 will have twice the piston serface and lower cylinder pressure than a turbo 250cc. Don't assume anything at this point.

[garth285]

Very True!!!!

I finally have Woolich looking into the maps to see if there are any hidden limiters so we'll see.....

I was also thinking of something else today on my way into work, I am wondering if neutral has its own rev limiter or not, there is one listed in the software but I cannot edit it, I wonder if I run the bike with it thinking its in neutral if it will rev out.

I was also thinking if I wanted to be a super quid I could run my data logger and free rev the engine to the limiter and see what it does lol.... but I dont like to abuse the engines...

We'll see if they find any hidden limiters!

[Racer x]

My old boss was a German tool and die maker with Mercedes Benz back on the fifties. He worked on Fangios car in South America with the 600 and race car decvision. He would free rev engines till I was lying on the floor screaming STOP!!!! He was like " it's no problem" haha. So now I don't mind so much when I do a static test with the nitrous. If I am lean the engie will spike 14500 " it's no problem"

[swarfman64]

Compressor surge?? When mine did it it's like a limiter. Like hitting a brick wall. With an exhaust/muffler it's easy to hear the intake air chopping. Just a thought.

[MrSavvy]

Man, your 250 looks so f***ing sexy. I bet it sounds amazing. Props!!

[garth285]

Just took a look at the limiter, i found an additional limiter and i have updated the definition for this, please test it out by updating to v3.2.5 of WRT.

Great news! Hopefully they fixed the rev limiter problem!!! I'm going to flash the ECU tonight and try it out!

[QuickSiR]

Originally Posted by garth285

Great news! Hopefully they fixed the rev limiter problem!!! I'm going to flash the ECU tonight and try it out!

Light at the end of the tunnel!!!!

[garth285]

Thats for sure! Cant wait to get home and try it out! Unfortunately I dont think I'll be able to get back to the dyno until next week but I have a tag and a tail section on the bike now so I can atleast do some small tuning to get it close.

[garth285]

Well I think the problem is fixed! Unfortunately I had very little time to mess with the bike last night and then had to get up at 5am to come into work early so I made some fuel changes and I'll give it a shot tonight.

I copied my old fuel maps into the bike and last time I had ran the bike I tried adding a ton of fuel to it up top.... well let just say at 10.3:1 AFR the bike is not happy lol.... I hit just about 11,000rpm though so I am getting close!

I'll flash the ECU with the fuel changes this afternoon and give it another shot, if all goes well I'll be off to the dyno sometime soon!

Will keep you guys posted.

[QuickSiR]

Excellent news!!

When it's all done. Then you'll have enough time to make a turbo kit for my 250!

[swarfman64]

great news!

[garth285]

Well I'm still stuck at 10k rpm :-(

I tried the latest BIN and that did not help, I tried leaning the bike out a ton just incase it was going so rich it was breaking up and lastly I just moved my return fuel line.

Still no luck :-(

I am going to put a stock flash in the ECU and bring it south to my buddy to see if it has a 10k rpm limiter for him, if it doesnt then there has to be something I'm missing.

[Somchai]

Originally Posted by garth285

Well I'm still stuck at 10k rpm :-(

I tried the latest BIN and that did not help, I tried leaning the bike out a ton just incase it was going so rich it was breaking up and lastly I just moved my return fuel line.

Still no luck :-(

I am going to put a stock flash in the ECU and bring it south to my buddy to see if it has a 10k rpm limiter for him, if it doesnt then there has to be something I'm missing.

Shawn, that's no good message.
What I would do is to put your ecu in the bike of your buddy and look if it's showing an error code, so maybe to get an idea about whats wrong.
The bad thing with the 300 is that you can not delete it, like you can do with the 250. But maybe the guys from Woolich Racing know a way how to do it?
But let me please ask you again, did you replace the iap-sensor or do you use the stock sensor? To understand my question, the stock sensor is a vacuum sensor and you're putting boost on it.
Good luck.

[swarfman64]

Not good. If its any comfort I've parked mine until I've built the dyno. It's near impossible to tune any better without being able to watch the values in real time. Are you using a with a VE and alpha-n blended map?

[garth285]

Originally Posted by Somchai

Shawn, that's no good message.
What I would do is to put your ecu in the bike of your buddy and look if it's showing an error code, so maybe to get an idea about whats wrong.
The bad thing with the 300 is that you can not delete it, like you can do with the 250. But maybe the guys from Woolich Racing know a way how to do it?
But let me please ask you again, did you replace the iap-sensor or do you use the stock sensor? To understand my question, the stock sensor is a vacuum sensor and you're putting boost on it.
Good luck.

Yes I will try the ECU out on a stock bike and report back.

The IAP sensor is stock, but I have a T inline to the IAP sensor that goes to a one way check valve so that the sensor will see vacuum but will bleed off any boost or positive pressure that come on that line.

[garth285]

Originally Posted by swarfman64

Not good. If its any comfort I've parked mine until I've built the dyno. It's near impossible to tune any better without being able to watch the values in real time. Are you using a with a VE and alpha-n blended map?

Yeah I am using an Innovate LM-2 with thir Aux-Box so I am able to go out and run the bike and view the data right after I can see RPM, Air Fuel Ratio, TPS, Turbo Oil Pressure, boost/vacuum. Its a pretty great setup.

As far as the map modes, kawi uses a RPM vs. IAP for anything under 10% throttle and then RPM vs. TPS for anything about that. I am mainly just trying to tune the WOT so I'll take the bike on a loop and go WOT 1st and 2nd gear maybe 3rd and see what it does. On a good note I think I have all of the bike mapped except from 9600rpm up lol.

[garth285]

Well tested the ecu out and it's good. Going to try a few more things this weekend to see If I can get it to run properly.

This sucks......

[garth285]

Well I'm just about to give up on this thing......

I pulled my 300 rotor and compared it to the 250 tonight, I took a photo of both of them and overlaid the photo on the PC and found the marks are dead on the same between the 250 and 300.

The other thing I did was try to swap the wires on the ignition pickup incase there was a difference there..... tried it, bike wouldnt run and would just misfire.

I have tried multiple ECU maps and nothing had fixed the issue.

So the next I decided to check the cam timing, I got a little excited at first because I started lining everything up and had the 1T mark lined up and my cam marks were no where to be seen, a quick check of the service manual I saw that you need to line up the 2T mark to set the cam timing, well I moved it to that and it was spot on.

So now I have verified the timing marks on the flywheels are the same, my cam timing is good, my ECU is good, my fuel pressure is good, my spark is good, so on and so on.

So my next test might have to be to pull the turbo header off and run a stock header and see if it will free rev cleanly.

Still trying to figure out whats going on but not having much luck. Hell maybe I'll swap motors and see if the other one runs better...... not that I want to do it but I'm running out of options..... it doesnt help that now I'm house hunting and getting rid of a project will help with a down payment...... sigh......

[Somchai]

Shawn since you're not so far away from the goal I think you should not give up, but I also understand sometimes when things don't do like they should it's frustrating.
So let me share an idea, I think you're problem could be any electronical behaviour and maybe you just didn't connect all the connections the Ninja 300 needs.
I didn't look for the wiring of it (even not for the 250, since I didn't need so), but I guess that also the gauge could be part of the electrical system in case of the 300.
The 300 is quite different to the 250-FI, since i.e. in the 250 one can delete the error-codes what in the 300 is not possible.
So short way after my long talk before, get an ecu from the european 250-FI and go with that could maybe help to take that way easier.
On german bay there is one but you should ask if they ship it to the US http://www.ebay.de/itm/Kawasaki-Ninj...item3cf13ce407
I wish you good luck and hope you'll find the solution

[micoulisninja]

Originally Posted by garth285

Well I'm just about to give up on this thing......

Hell no !! Come on man, you 're so close !! You could let it be for a day or two, just to let your mind get into other stuff and get back to it with a clear head...
You have no idea how many obstacles I had to overcome to make mine work !
And I'm not sure yet how well it will perform after breaking-in or how long it will last...You know you have to be really patient when going your own way... I wish I could help you more somehow...
I am a great fan of your effort and I am sure that if you go for it, you will make it work eventually... just take your time...sometimes that is all it takes...

P.S. It just came to me but are you sure the fuel rail size is adequate for the high rpm ? becuase it might stay within the AFR while rpm go up slowly but what if the rate that fuel is being fed is not enough ?

[swarfman64]

Sorry, giving up isn't an option. Seeing what you've done so far I don't think you could walk away from it without it haunting you. So.....if there is anything I can do for you just ask. The end resaults are going to be unreal. Not to mention what the next person does,then the next......these turbo 250's are still in refined and in the development stages, you me and a few others are opening doors for others by doing this and showing the world.

That's my motivational speech for today, keep pushing!

[Singh2jz]

Originally Posted by garth285

Well I'm just about to give up on this thing......

I just started reading this thread lol..I was not expecting this!!

[garth285]

Yeah I know I have to figure it out, its just so frustrating!!!!! It doesn't help that I have limited time to even work on the damn thing but I've been trying to iron out this problem for damn near 2 and a half months!

I wish I had a ninja 300 I could throw this turbo kit on and see what it does!

Bahhh I'll keep you guys updated......

[cuong-nutz]

Ill take a stab at your issue when I get some free time at the computer.

[cuong-nutz]

Have you checked your connections at your throttle bodies? TPS sensors/deletes. Did you remove the secondary butterflies? air vacuum hoses not collapsing? I don't know too much about the EFI setups :/

[garth285]

Secondary throttle plates are actually removed from the throttle bodies, they are a no no on turbo's

[cuong-nutz]

How did you set up the line/check valve for your IAP sensor? It feels TB related.

[jkv45]

You are confident the injectors you are using can supply enough E85 at max RPM?

[garth285]

Originally Posted by cuong-nutz

How did you set up the line/check valve for your IAP sensor? It feels TB related.

I have a T running inline to the IAP sensor and then on the end of the T it has my check valve to bleed off any boost, and to keep vacuum.

Also I have tried running the bike on just TPS and it does the same thing.

[garth285]

Originally Posted by jkv45

You are confident the injectors you are using can supply enough E85 at max RPM?

You generally have to add about 35-40% more fuel to keep E85 Happy. So if it takes a 245cc injector to be equal to running E85 a 330cc injector is about 35% more that needed which should be good with the turbo.

Stock injectors are 175cc/min, I installed 330cc/min injectors. Also am running a 255LPH pump so plenty of flow there, all lines are -6AN

[cuong-nutz]

Boost leak? boost cut off?
throwing darts here

[swarfman64]

Just a thought. Try plug in your secondary butterfly actuator complete, just hanging off the loom. Have it filly operational except not physically fitted to manifold. It uses a tps style 0-5v signal which feeds back ecu.

[garth285]

It is connected and working I just removed the throttle plates so it's not effective.

As far as boost issues. The bike does it even with the turbo charge pipe off the bike so at zero boost in neutral it has the miss. I'm going to give a few more things a try this weekend when I have time. Work has been kicking my Ass.

[swarfman64]

Perhaps without plates in it, it doesn't find a stopper. during its key on procedure it cycles and most likely sets the ref voltages. just thinking out loud

[garth285]

Unfortunately it does have a blade stop inside the throttle body but that sensor does run a self check. When I get my kds hooked up I'll see if it's throwing any codes.

[Somchai]

Allow me to ask one silly question Shawn, did you mount the speed-sensor?
But also I guess you did.

[garth285]

OK well I gave the bike a rest a little which timed out good because it was my 30th Birthday yesterday and I had dinners and parties to go to. I finally tonight buttoned the bike back up, going to mess with it more this week, I am going to go grab my buddys KDS cable so I can see if I have any FI lights coming on. I don't have a ninja 300 gauge cluster so I am not sure if something else is going on.

I am going to see if I can get a buddy of mine to try out some other parts, but I think I am getting closer to getting somewhere..... will keep you all posted of course!

[garth285]

Originally Posted by Somchai

Allow me to ask one silly question Shawn, did you mount the speed-sensor?
But also I guess you did.

Speed sensor is not plugged in but it does not have to be, I had someone test out on their ninja 300 if the speed sensor was unplugged if it would do anything funky and nothing happened, just showed 0mph