low-siding?

[akcalhoun]

if you feel your bike start to low-side what is the best way to prevent it from going down? ive taken the MSF course and they didnt explain how to recover from one, just how to prevent it and what it is. would it just be better to go down instead of risking a high side?

[ally99]

Well, I would say first of all, it depends on the cause of the low-side and at what point you realize you're sliding. Some can't be saved or by the time you realize it, it's too late. Secondly, there are likely those who will disagree with me here, but if I begin to actually low-side on the street, I'd prefer to let the bike go. I crashed once in the mountains. My bike ended up on the bottom of a big dropped wedged tightly between a tree and a huge rock standing upright. Little Ninj's don't go down without a fight. lol! Had I tried to 'save' it, my legs would have been crushed. On the track when there are no trees in the way, I would try to save it. The best things you can do to "save" a lowside are actually the opposite things people usually do:
1) Stay LOOSE and let the bike do its thing. DON'T TENSE UP!
2) Stay on the gas. Don't chop the throttle or you WILL low side.
3) Look where you want to go and BELIEVE. It's funny how many crashes a good rider can will him/herself out of!

[csmith12]

Assuming your noting into anything really nasty. The answer is a smooth roll off. "Practice your roll off as much as your roll on."

It's really the same, good throttle control prevents a lowside, it's also how you recover from one.

[lgk]

i escaped one the other day, i kind of expected it since it started to rain and i was getting on the on ramp which is really greasy. i made the turn much slower than normal and still felt like i was sliding.


to prevent a low side.
1. plan ahead, look at road conditions, slow down if necessary.
2. dont use the brakes
3. dont chop the throttle

definitely take note of 2 and 3
gyroscopic force and a combo of centrifugal force/gravity/traction is what keeps the bike upright during a turn. if you lose the gyroscopic force wheel generates, you will fall.

[csmith12]

Ally speaks from experience and also makes a good point about "letting go". Just don't give up the instant you feel a little slide. She is also so right when she says the lil ninja doesn't go down without a fight.

Once a tire starts to slide out, controlling the bike is actually really easy because there isn't much you can really do aside of smoothly roll off. The real trick (and hardest part) is controlling your body and mind as a rider to not make the slide any worse. Again just as Ally said with 100% accuracy, what most riders do to fight the lowside, ultimately only adds to the problems. Tight on the bars, target fixation, bad body position, poor braking and finally poor throttle control only hurt the situation.

Getting back to "letting go". Once you have hit the ground there is no reason to hold on to the bike. In fact, if you do, it just may drag you back into traffic aka Super Sic. style. Just let it go.....

[Motofool]

Originally Posted by akcalhoun

.........ive taken the MSF course and they didnt explain how to recover from one, just how to prevent it and what it is. .........

What did they explain?

Additional reading applicable to your question:

http://www.msgroup.org/Tip.aspx?Num=045&Set=

[lgk]

you guys are right about letting go.
no good can come from hanging on a 350lb brick sliding across pavement.

you stop faster and scrape less when you let go.

[Minikin_Jo]

A low-side fall is when the back tire is sliding, correct?

They told us at my MSF class, it was to straighten the handlebars, do not break and until the bike was in a straight line then you can come to a stop.

[csmith12]

Originally Posted by Minikin_Jo

A low-side fall is when the back tire is sliding, correct?

No, not quite. Can be either tire, front or rear. It's all about the direction of the lean and which side you fall off of. The low side (normally the inside) is closer to the ground, hence it's called a low side. High sides can be nasty launching you into the air higher off the ground, hence it's called a high side.

Originally Posted by Minikin_Jo

They told us at my MSF class, it was to straighten the handlebars, do not break and until the bike was in a straight line then you can come to a stop.

I was told the same thing in my MSF. I guess it's fine for beginners traveling at a slower pace but don't work for sh*t on the track. lol

[ally99]

Originally Posted by Minikin_Jo

A low-side fall is when the back tire is sliding, correct?

A low-side is when the bike is going down on its lowest side. For instance, if you're in a turn and you and the bike low-side, you land on the side you're leaning into. A high-side is an accident when the rider is thrown "high" over the bike.

Originally Posted by Minikin_Jo

do not break

It would suck to "break". By that time, you're already in trouble if you're breaking. Hopefully you'll let go in time not to "break".

[csmith12]

lol, beat you by a minute Ally.

[choneofakind]

From my mountain biking experience on loose terrain, (thankfully not ninja experience with this one) if you start loosing it on gravel or dirt, stay loose. A stable 2-wheeled vehicle will always try to right itself. Often, rider input is what causes the bike to eat it. Granted, your period of reaction time when you come into dirt or gravel on asphalt is tiny and often times, even the best of us eat it because gravel and dirt on the road is an instant change in grip that is very hard to accommodate for.

If you're lucky enough to start feeling pushing and wiggling from the front on a clean surface, (like the track or a clean road) that makes it much easier. As has been said, stay very loose and roll smoothly off a little. Keep looking through your turn and keep focused like normal. You'll feel the front wiggle a little, maybe even the back wiggle a little, but the bike will get back in line and you'll be on your merry way. I guess the moral of the story is be light on the bars and let the bike do the work for you. Your job as a rider is to stay focused and not panic when things start getting a little wiggly. Its easier said than done, but after it happens once, you'll react better to it the second time. That's why it's so important to have a forgiving bike like the 250. It lets you have a little more blind luck so you can learn from mistakes rather than just eating it.

Ps, I highly recommend mountain biking for all motorcyclists. It lets you experience varying grip levels at all speeds, but on a forgiving, lightweight vehicle that has loads more grip than 2.1" wide tires would lead you to believe. After lots of getting wiggly on my mtb, getting a little wiggly over the esses at midohio (my tires were a little cold still. First lap of the 2nd session) was not scary, in fact it was kinda fun to experience because I was focused completely on making my turn and things just slowed down and I felt both ends wiggle and then snap back into line. It was cool
Posted via Mobile Device

[250rr]

Originally Posted by choneofakind

From my mountain biking experience on loose terrain, (thankfully not ninja experience with this one) if you start loosing it on gravel or dirt, stay loose. A stable 2-wheeled vehicle will always try to right itself. Often, rider input is what causes the bike to eat it. Granted, your period of reaction time when you come into dirt or gravel on asphalt is tiny and often times, even the best of us eat it because gravel and dirt on the road is an instant change in grip that is very hard to accommodate for.

If you're lucky enough to start feeling pushing and wiggling from the front on a clean surface, (like the track or a clean road) that makes it much easier. As has been said, stay very loose and roll smoothly off a little. Keep looking through your turn and keep focused like normal. You'll feel the front wiggle a little, maybe even the back wiggle a little, but the bike will get back in line and you'll be on your merry way. I guess the moral of the story is be light on the bars and let the bike do the work for you. Your job as a rider is to stay focused and not panic when things start getting a little wiggly. Its easier said than done, but after it happens once, you'll react better to it the second time. That's why it's so important to have a forgiving bike like the 250. It lets you have a little more blind luck so you can learn from mistakes rather than just eating it.

Ps, I highly recommend mountain biking for all motorcyclists. It lets you experience varying grip levels at all speeds, but on a forgiving, lightweight vehicle that has loads more grip than 2.1" wide tires would lead you to believe. After lots of getting wiggly on my mtb, getting a little wiggly over the esses at midohio (my tires were a little cold still. First lap of the 2nd session) was not scary, in fact it was kinda fun to experience because I was focused completely on making my turn and things just slowed down and I felt both ends wiggle and then snap back into line. It was cool
Posted via Mobile Device

Thanks for this post. I have quite a bit of mtn biking experience. I never thought about it contributing much to my quality level of street riding. It makes me feel like I have a good foundation to handle my first emergency, whenever that may be. Hopefully later rather than sooner.

[ally99]

Originally Posted by csmith12

lol, beat you by a minute Ally.

LOL! You're quick! Not always a good thing. Just teasing you.

[Minikin_Jo]

Originally Posted by csmith12

I was told the same thing in my MSF. I guess it's fine for beginners traveling at a slower pace but don't work for sh*t on the track. lol

My mistake - I didn't realize this was a 'track' type question.

Originally Posted by ally99

It would suck to "break". By that time, you're already in trouble if you're breaking. Hopefully you'll let go in time not to "break".

Oops, the Spelling/Grammar Police got me!

[csmith12]

@Minikin_Jo - You made no mistake, I was just sharing my experience with the MSF teachings on my first track day when I slid around a bit. It kinda went like this....

I am railing the 250 around turn 4 at Putnam Park's track. Turn 4 is a near 100mph left handed sweeper. I turn in at around 77mph (guessing) and start to roll on. Long about the apex and 84ish mph, I get chatter and then small scoots from the rear. I truly had no clue what to do aside of the MSF stuff. I didn't tense up but I froze, target locked on my exit and didn't move my body or throttle. After skipping around a few more times the bike finally stabilized itself and I luckily made my exit. After my session, needless to say, I found a control rider and we had a nice long chat. By the end of the day, the small scoots and skips were kinda fun but ultimately it's the bike telling me I am doing something wrong or bike setup is wrong.

The same thing can and does happen on the street, just at a slower pace. In the event that a rider goes down, sadly a lot of the time, it's chalked up to tires or something and the rider never really learns anything from the experience.

[edxmon]

Originally Posted by ally99

Well, I would say first of all, it depends on the cause of the low-side and at what point you realize you're sliding. Some can't be saved or by the time you realize it, it's too late. Secondly, there are likely those who will disagree with me here, but if I begin to actually low-side on the street, I'd prefer to let the bike go. I crashed once in the mountains. My bike ended up on the bottom of a big dropped wedged tightly between a tree and a huge rock standing upright. Little Ninj's don't go down without a fight. lol! Had I tried to 'save' it, my legs would have been crushed. On the track when there are no trees in the way, I would try to save it. The best things you can do to "save" a lowside are actually the opposite things people usually do:
1) Stay LOOSE and let the bike do its thing. DON'T TENSE UP!
2) Stay on the gas. Don't chop the throttle or you WILL low side.
3) Look where you want to go and BELIEVE. It's funny how many crashes a good rider can will him/herself out of!

Hahaha, we had some pretty chill MSF instructors and instead of the usual "Look, Press, Roll", we used "Look, Press, BELIEVE" hahahaha, it was hilarious.

[sowega]

Here's the thing: if you're lowsiding, you have already crashed and just don't realize it yet!

If you're losing/have lost the front, either keep neutral throttle or, better yet, get in the gas to take the weight off of the sliding front, and push the bike UP with your arms.

If you're sliding the rear, stay in the gas and keep your head pointed where you want to go. I've only spun up the rear on my race 250 once, and it's no different from any other bike; if you chop throttle, you get a free trip to the moon.

NOTE: The above is based on my experience street riding for 15 years, track riding for 10, and racing for 2. Your results may vary, and I'm not terribly interested in arguing with you, especially if you've never experienced the sensations involved in lowsiding and/or sliding either tire.

[Whiskey]

Originally Posted by Minikin_Jo

A low-side fall is when the back tire is sliding, correct?

They told us at my MSF class, it was to straighten the handlebars, do not break and until the bike was in a straight line then you can come to a stop.

Lowside - you follow the bike down the road

Highside - The bike follows you...

If you're down kill the engine & kick the bike away from you, even in boots a bike landing on your ankle is not fun.

[csmith12]

Imma post this in here because it shows great throttle control contrast between 2 riders. One making mistakes (me) and the other not making mistakes.

Link to original page on YouTube.

Skip this clip to 30 seconds and watch a few times. Things to take note;

I am the rider filming
I am following a control rider
Compare my throttle control to the control riders (both can be clearly heard, with his obviously better than mine)
Pause the clip at 32-34 seconds and note the direction changes of the bike (rear slid waaaaayyyy out)
NO SUDDEN movements in throttle (continued smooth roll off during slide)

Why did I continue to roll off? Because if I would have gassed it with the rear stepped that far out and it hooked up, well.... you could guess where I was going. I would rather take the lowside but I am gunna fight it every step of the way until my derriere hits the tarmac.

Not that this is even close to my first near lowside event but what did I learn from this 41 seconds of video?
Don't charge your corner entry and you won't have to roll off the throttle (which is what caused the rear to slide out in the first place)
There is less than a second to decide to roll off or get into the throttle

The very next lap, in the very same corner, the rear skipped out just a little bit and I continued my roll on and all was well.

[alex.s]

it depends. if its the rear tire sliding and its not because you are going over a low-traction area, do nothing. change nothing. do not give up. do not 'correct'. do not do anything but keep doing what you are doing. it will come back, and if it doesnt, sliding out the rear and low-siding is probably the easiest crash you can perform. the rear sliding by itself doesnt really do much. if your rear is sliding because of an extended lack of traction e.g. running into the dirt (opposed to overrunning a lot of traction, like wot full lean on asphalt) then smooth roll-off. but rolling off the rear on asphalt is usually a bad idea in my mind. if you are going to hit something that you can run over, pothole, riders leg or something, and are already near the top end of the traction limits then just WOT it. you will slide but you will be in the best position for it on the gas.
if its breaking loose exiting cause you have lots of power, its a bit different. if you arent going fast enough for the low traction during the slide to keep your rear back, your rear just loops around with too much gas like your tires are made of ice... if you chop the gas it will catch immediately and buck while its tilted sideways (highside) but if you stay on the gas and feed it some clutch or rear brake you will catch it smoother. those low speed high torque catches are what turn into highsides a lot i think. if you pull the bike up it will catch quicker and it will buck. if its going to buck, keeping it wide open and making it buck by pulling it up i think makes the buck smoother than getting off the power, but... well just dont get in that situation and ignore everything i've said

if its your front sliding... WOT.

[ally99]

Originally Posted by edxmon

Hahaha, we had some pretty chill MSF instructors and instead of the usual "Look, Press, Roll", we used "Look, Press, BELIEVE" hahahaha, it was hilarious.

Yeah, that's track-talkin' right there!

[ally99]

Originally Posted by alex.s

if its breaking loose exiting cause you have lots of power, its a bit different. if you arent going fast enough for the low traction during the slide to keep your rear back, your rear just loops around with too much gas like your tires are made of ice... if you chop the gas it will catch immediately and buck while its tilted sideways (highside) but if you stay on the gas and feed it some clutch or rear brake you will catch it smoother. those low speed high torque catches are what turn into highsides a lot i think. if you pull the bike up it will catch quicker and it will buck. if its going to buck, keeping it wide open and making it buck by pulling it up i think makes the buck smoother than getting off the power, but... well just dont get in that situation and ignore everything i've said

if its your front sliding... WOT.

You are such a track talker!

[Motofool]

Originally Posted by akcalhoun

if you feel your bike start to low-side what is the best way to prevent it from going down?

Link to original page on YouTube.

[lgk]

Originally Posted by Motofool

Link to original page on YouTube.

he probably could have saved it, if he didnt chop the throttle.

[NDspd]

Originally Posted by lgk

he probably could have saved it, if he didnt chop the throttle.

Yup, very unstable throttle control.

I've had a few close calls over my 1 year of riding experience. In some instances it was rider error and others, there was nothing I could do. I've had my front slide out about a foot in a lean once. At the time I couldn't figure out what caused my bike to do that, so later in the day I walked back to where I slid. The first thing I saw was sand, I took the right hand turn through the intersection too tight to the corner. I even saw where my tires went, the wider path being my rear tire. There were two curved lines, then one thinner line deviated to the outside of the curve confirming it was the front.

So, luckily I didn't lowside, but I was dam close. I just kept my body loose and let the bike do what she did best. In fact the one lowside I had on another bike was caused by sand while I was in a lean....not fun

[csmith12]

Originally Posted by lgk

he probably could have saved it, if he didnt chop the throttle.

That rider must have gotten spooked when his peg hit the pavement. It was over when he took his hand off the bars. He went from whatever throttle control he had to zero throttle control.

[RedOctober]

You can't really "save a lowside". Lowside is the result of your actions leading up to it. Once you're down you're down and generally speaking it happens VERY fast.
You can, however, adjust your actions based on the desired outcome, whether it's stabilized bike, highside or lowside. Let's use a rear slide as an example of the feedback you feel. If you keep cranking the throttle your slide turns into lowside. If you chop the throttle your potential lowside turns into a highside.

[alex.s]

Originally Posted by RedOctober

You can't really "save a lowside".

well thats not really true. even after it happens. look at poor simo, he saved his share of crashes until it got him.

[RedOctober]

Originally Posted by alex.s

well thats not really true. even after it happens. look at poor simo, he saved his share of crashes until it got him.

Yeah, until it got him.