Head Positioning

[Kokosun]

I was going through my pictures from Silverstone, and I noticed something interesting. At least, I think that it's interesting. In corners, Lorenzo positions his head differently to every other rider. Take a look at the attached pictures, and you'll see what I mean. JL holds his head at a greater angle to the ground ... kind of in-line with the lean of the bike. Every other rider holds his head more upright.

[alex.s]

i made a post about this awhile ago actually, i do the same thing... instead of wasting effort rotating your head to see things leveled, just look at the world crooked

[RedOctober]

It has to do with riders desire to keep the horizon at horizontal. It's VERY uncomfortable to see horizon at 60 deg lean and it takes a long time to learn to judge the corner that way. I do it in corners I know I can't screw up, just to keep getting used to it.
The benefit seems to be better weight distribution (head is lower and head is heavy!) in the lean. Also head down seems to allow the inside arm to go down lower since you're not twisting your body weird.

[Alex]

Every time I read about head positioning, I am reminded of this GIF by one of our more amusing members.

[choneofakind]

I've played with this a bit. When I keep my head level, my neck gets craned a little.


When I don't level my head, (after a little getting used to it) I found that I didn't tend to panic as much because of the sensation of speed. Maybe it's in my head, maybe not. But it felt like not leveling allowed me to dive head-first into the corner without hesitation, and it showed in my riding.

[BRad704]

Is that something you've noticed from him before? or do you think it could be collarbone related?

[Panda]

I keep wanting to reply to this thread, "in my pants."

But I am much too mature.

[Kokosun]

Originally Posted by BRad704

Is that something you've noticed from him before? or do you think it could be collarbone related?

I've never actually LOOKED before, but it would be interesting to take a look at a few old pictures. I think that I'll do that tomorrow, unless somebody beats me to it.

What I found interesting was that he was so distinctly different from all of the other riders.

[Alex]

Originally Posted by Panda

I keep wanting to reply to this thread, "in my pants."

But I am much too mature.

I chuckled, but then couldn't decide whether you were being obscene or referring to this.

[Panda]

Hah, I was being obscene.

[alex.s]

Originally Posted by choneofakind

I've played with this a bit. When I keep my head level, my neck gets craned a little.


When I don't level my head, (after a little getting used to it) I found that I didn't tend to panic as much because of the sensation of speed. Maybe it's in my head, maybe not. But it felt like not leveling allowed me to dive head-first into the corner without hesitation, and it showed in my riding.

straining to visually see the exit of corners was not something that was helping me so i gave it up. the only place you should be at max lean like this is in a controlled road you know. (a race track) so theres no point in needing to see much... just where you are. you should already be able to "see" the exit in your mind since you know the corner already.

[JA-Moo]

To keep your balance, you have your inner ear, and your visual cues. VERY old school road race training was to keep your eyes at horizontal, as the centripetal forces in a corner threw off your inner ear balancing. As with anything, you can retrain your balance to use different cues.

And it also depends on your initial training, just like most older riders ride what I call "uppie-downie", or riding with your body inline with the center of the bike. Newer riders learn to "hang off". And it's very difficult to go from one style to the other without a lot of relearning.

I had trouble, as I learned to road race on a go kart track, which had very slow corners. So to go fast you had to really hang off, which is not normal for normal size tracks. I still hang off too far for corners that don't really require it.

[alex.s]

i have heard lots of people talk about balance in regard to things like visual cues and inner ear and it really confuses me alot... my question is... what does it matter? the bike will stay up regardless of if you feel like you are balancing or not... hell, it will stay up without a rider on top. you are not required to make adjustments to keep from falling down... only to change the direction of the bike and to apply throttle or brake... so why do people care so much about balance? or having a sense of how far they are leaning? isn't that what your knee and elbows are for?

[choneofakind]

Yepp, I was playing with it at the track not sure I'd try it on a street. The inner ear thing might have some merit to it. Initially, not leveling my head felt really weird. I felt blurry through corners, like when you drink just a tad too much and your eyes move slowly.

But after I got used to my head tipping in with me instead of leveling, I could throw myself at the corner and go for it. I guess it's all a preference thing.

[Motofool]

While turning in a motorcycle, we cannot please the three balance systems at once, the vestibular, the somato-sensory and the visual.

The reason is that vector weight is not felt plumb or perpendicular with the horizon anymore, it tilts as much as the bike leans (it runs from the CG to the line that connects both contact patches).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balance_%28ability%29

While turning leaned, we are in as good balance as when we are vertical.
If we try to harmonize the eyes with the horizon, then we are tilting the head sideways respect to our ears and our feeling of our weight.

[RedOctober]

You're sitting in your chair. Now lean to a side. Then crank your neck so that the horizon is level. What did that do to your shoulders and arms? My opposite arm comes up a little and shoulders twist a bit.
If you're going to crank the neck while you're leaned over that may add input to bars. Sure, we all ride light on bars but it happens and you may not be thinking about it.
Last time I crashed I was trying to "hook" the turn like in ToTW. I was running wide and brought head forward. It probably would have been fine but except instead of tightening the turn the video shows bike leaning even more for about a second before going down. Why? My guess is that moving head forward moved the shoulders and extended the right arm even more, pulling on it gently (it was a left turn)

[Kokosun]

I spent an hour trawling through pictures of riders in corners, especially sharp right hand corners (like Luffield at Silverstone).

I really think that JL holds his head differently to all of the other riders. The other riders all endeavour to keep their eyes (roughly) parallel to the ground, while JL keeps his much more inline with the bike. It's interesting, because I haven't found a single other rider that does it quite so pronounced. I even looked at Moto3 riders, and they all seem to adopt the eyes parallel to the ground technique.

This picture of JL and MM exemplifies it best.

Copyright for the image is Miguel Angel Morenatti of AP. I hope that he doesn't mind me using it.

[Kokosun]

Here are a couple of pictures of DP and JL in the same corner, at roughly the same place within a few seconds of each other. I zoomed in and straightened the image (by 60-degrees).

OK ... I'm going to stop pushing this topic now. It might be interesting to me, but I'm guessing that everybody else is wondering what I'm going on about.

:-)

[csmith12]

[Motofool]

Originally Posted by Kokosun

...........OK ... I'm going to stop pushing this topic now. It might be interesting to me, but I'm guessing that everybody else is wondering what I'm going on about.

:-)

I like your posts and pictures, I personally do it like him, ........ at much smaller lean angles evidently.

IMHO, eyes are needed to keep direction, but not to keep balance.

I prefer having my ears in balance with my body, ....I don't see that well anyhow

[adouglas]

Originally Posted by BRad704

Is that something you've noticed from him before? or do you think it could be collarbone related?

I don't think so. I've always noticed that The Doctor seems to have his head waaay down.

[Panda]

Originally Posted by Kokosun

Here are a couple of pictures of MM and JL in the same corner, at roughly the same place within a few seconds of each other. I zoomed in and straightened the image (by 60-degrees).

It's JL and Pedrosa.

[Kokosun]

Originally Posted by Panda

It's JL and Pedrosa.

Oops! I'll fix that.

[RedOctober]

It's ridiculous how far they lean and how easy they make it seem.
Of course, they are pushing 2g at 60 def lean, so they are glued to the bike anyway.

[Alex]

The skill the riders have is unreal, but don't underestimate the engineering that goes into those tires as well. Bikes of similar weight, similar horsepower, and world-class riders in the WSBK series aren't at nearly the same lean angles as the GP bikes, primarily due to the differences in the spec tires in each series.

[Misti]

Originally Posted by alex.s

i made a post about this awhile ago actually, i do the same thing... instead of wasting effort rotating your head to see things leveled, just look at the world crooked

It's an interesting post actually, I do what Alex does and don't rotate my head much at all.

Head position actually plays a big role in a person's overall BP on the bike, and in their comfort level. I've had a ton of students that have been complaining of kinked necks and sore stiff shoulders and I demonstrate to them the difference between just leaning to the side and letting your head follow vs leaning to the side and then trying to tilt your head to make it level.

When people really tilt their head it sometimes brings that inside shoulder with it so that they end up crossed up. Kinda hard to explain through just words. The point of this is that sometimes a very minor adjustment in head position can make all the difference in the world to your overall body position and to your comfort level

Misti

[csmith12]

The related thread in question is here: http://www.ninjette.org/forums/showthread.php?t=104615

[Motofool]

Originally Posted by Misti

..........I demonstrate to them the difference between just leaning to the side and letting your head follow vs leaning to the side and then trying to tilt your head to make it level...........

......... and out of balance, from the point of view of the vestibular system of the inner ears, inside each of which we have three little "bubble levels".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vestibular_system

While leaning, those bubbles are pointing along the lean angle ("gravity" has tilted in that direction) rather than straight down as when riding vertically.

I understand that riders try to find a visual reference in the horizon, but I have not seen any high-wire walker tilting his head while balancing on the wire.

[choneofakind]

Hernan, I see your point here, but from my experiences, not leveling your head does 2 important things. 1) like misti said, it helps you lead with your head instead of your shoulder and let's you relax the shoulder. 2) Chris has mentioned this in other threads. It helps me with the information overload and helps me deal with my sr by not allowing me to see everything at once. It's also one less thing to concentrate on while I'm already concentrating on properly riding a corner. If you cut out a little of the horizon by not leveling your head, you've filtered out some of that extra info that makes your brain become too busy.

Idk, I always level my head on the street because I want to see every last detail and I never ride at track pace. On track, I'm focusing on keeping calm and improving one thing every corner. I think last time at the track, I found my personal limits. Not leveling my head made me 'feel' less stressed when the speed picked up, effectively raising my limit. Whether it actually did that, idk. But it worked for me. It made me feel like I could put myself off the bike further by going headfirst and attacking the corner, rather than overthinking it and taking off too much speed before entry. Idk, isn't a huge portion of going fast all in your head? What's the rule; 99% rider, 1% bike?

[alex.s]

Originally Posted by Motofool

......... and out of balance, from the point of view of the vestibular system of the inner ears, inside each of which we have three little "bubble levels".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vestibular_system

While leaning, those bubbles are pointing along the lean angle ("gravity" has tilted in that direction) rather than straight down as when riding vertically.

I understand that riders try to find a visual reference in the horizon, but I have not seen any high-wire walker tilting his head while balancing on the wire.

why do you need to know which way is down?

in my experience, that input has nothing to do with riding a motorcycle above 10mph.

[csmith12]

Down is instinctive and your SR's will prove it. You also "feel" down as a force, via gravity. With enough training and practice, sense of direction can become more relative though.

Why do riders ride crossed up? Because they want to hold on? Do they fear falling off the bike at lean? Do they fear being so far down close to the ground at pace? Food for thought.

[Panda]

Because nobody them crossed up is wrong. It takes more effort to ride with proper form.

Think we are kinda over thinking it a bit.

[csmith12]

Originally Posted by Panda

Think we are kinda over thinking it a bit.

I don't think so. Why does it take more effort to get your head down? Why doesn't it happen naturally? You don't walk with your head tilted, you don't walk a tightrope that way either. Why don't skiers do it? Come to think about it more, what do you do with your head tilted? Sleep? Funny how it works that way...

It's all about your perception and tolerance of your view of the world. Some are just more comfortable with a skewed, sideways view. Nothing really wrong with that as long as they are in control.

[Kokosun]

Since it would appear that 95% of the MotoGP riders level their head, at least somewhat, does that mean it's a 'better' approach for the majority of people? Or, are they super-human and therefore they can level their heads without the negatives that people have mentioned in this thread. And, if levelling is 'better', how come Lorenzo doesn't do it ... as much.

[Panda]

Are you taking about riding crossed up or tilting your head?

Also what's up with the patronizing CSS question style?

[alex.s]

Originally Posted by Panda

It takes more effort to ride with proper form.

no it doesn't.

usually people find it annoying when someone states their opinion as fact. even if they are flat out wrong. so asking valid questions that the answers logically lead a person to the same conclusion is typically not as condescending as telling someone they are wrong and that this is right or whatever. most people who ride bikes agressively have massive egos. so instead of telling them they are wrong, giving them the means to find the right answer "by themselves!!!" makes them feel better with that massive ego of theirs. they can go along thinking that the other people simply guided them to the correct answer, but that they ultimately found the correct solution after lots of input by various groups of differing beliefs. if you tell someone the correct answer flat out, 9 out of 10 times they doubt or challenge it. even if you explain it carefully and thoroughly.

[csmith12]

Originally Posted by Panda

Are you taking about riding crossed up or tilting your head?

Also what's up with the patronizing CSS question style?

We are talking about just tilting the head only. I believe most of it to be subconscious but that is ok if it works for them.

And if you review a lot of my posts, this is one of many posts where I ask just as many questions as I answer. No disrespect intended my good man. The questions are more for the thread as whole.

[Motofool]

Originally Posted by alex.s

why do you need to know which way is down?

in my experience, that input has nothing to do with riding a motorcycle above 10mph.

By default, we are always balancing on two or one wheel.
Via our vestibular system we feel balanced or out of balance.

When rolling along a straight line, we are constantly correcting any tendency of the bike to fall by counter-steering.
As you well know, there are bikes more stable that others to keep a straight course, but some degree of correction input is always happening (consciously or not).

When we dive into a turn and lean the bike, we are very careful about adopting a precise angle.
How do we know what that precise angle is?
Our balance sense feels "which way is down" for the new dynamic conditions (down is tilted as long as the turn lasts).
If we are sloppy about determining that critical angle of lean, we either over-steer or under-steer (run wide).

I can do that balance act without good (or no) sight but not without good inner ears.
During very slow speed maneuvers, I sometimes close my eyes in order to feel minute changes of balance.

What I was trying to say in my previous post was that, at least in my opinion and experience, internal ear is more important in keeping balance than sight.

If that is true (I may be wrong), then it is more important to feel balance than to see balance.

During any turn, even at extreme lean angles, we are balanced.
It may be hard to understand, but our gravitational field rotates from vertical as soon as we start a turn, sometimes to extreme angles.
It is like we are running vertically over the side of a vertical cone, while we are looking a far ahead as the surface of the cone allows us to see.
Yes, the turning road is now inclined, and the more inclined it becomes, due to our speed, the more chance of skidding down we have.
In those precarious conditions (the bike and pilot weight up to twice now and the suspension becomes very pre-loaded and ineffective), maintaining balance is more critical (so we input less steering action).
Now imagine that the rider is tilting his head to match the inclination of the side of the cone.

A rider with bad balance during a turn is constantly correcting the steering in the hope of regaining his elusive feeling of balance.
As we all know, steering corrections during a turn are not healthy, specially when the grip of that front tire is at its limit.

Copied from the Keith Code's article linked below:

"Humans rely on the force of gravity as a constant. More than any other factor, things move and feel the way they do because of gravity. Every action of your body and your bike is measured and adjusted because of it. We gain intimate knowledge of gravity to maintain balance in our upright stand, walk and run positions. This relies on a sensitive and detailed data-acquisition process that we involuntarily obey to avoid the consequence: falling down.

Our most familiar orientation is perpendicular to the planet, and all of our internal balance and visual machinery likes to keep it that way. Cornering motorcycles is diametrically opposed to those sensibilities.

The world begins to distort as we lean over. Once our visual orientation gets out of sync with our internal-balance machinery, it causes both the most rewarding and most terrifying sensations in riding. This is directly observable in new riders when they resist leaning by holding their bodies erect and pressing the bike down and away from themselves in a turn.
........
The barriers then are both physical sensation and visual orientation, and I believe there is a make-or-break point. That point is 45 degrees of lean. At 45 degrees, the forces are a bit out of the ordinary. Along with the normal 1g down, we now also have a 1g lateral load. As a result, the bike and our bodies experience an increase in weight. That's not native to us, and acts as both a distraction and a barrier.

Once we become comfortable with 45 degrees and attempt to go beyond that, the process begins to reverse. Immediately we have more lateral load than vertical load, and things begin to heat up. Riders apparently have difficulty organizing this. Suddenly, we are thrust into a sideways world where the forces escalate rapidly. While it takes 45 degrees to achieve 1g lateral, it takes only 15 degrees more to experience nearly double that (depending on rider position and tire size)."
.............
Up to 45 degrees, riders can be pretty rough with the bike. Current suspension and tires will forgive them. Once past that point, however, it's a brand-new game. Just as we have to re-wire our senses to deal with the new forces, we must also adjust to using less force and more finesse.

Problems arise when we instinctively resist leaning with the bike. Speeds seem higher and, as the rider is out of alignment with the bike and the lateral g-load, he struggles to stay on the bike. Now the arms and body come into play, stiffening up. This tires us out from the physical tension, which ultimately upsets the bike's handling. Much like a counter-leaning passenger, it tends to make the bike stand up and run wide.

Awkward and uncomfortable body, neck and head positions result from this. Shoulders and hips twist away from, instead of into, the turn, putting peculiar S-curves in the rider's back. This alone can upset the body's orientation machinery."

Read more: http://www.motorcyclistonline.com/ne...#ixzz2eVSpVLIn

[Panda]

Originally Posted by alex.s

no it doesn't.

Disagree. It's easier to grip the handlebars and stay centered over the bike than it is to hang off, grip with your legs, lean your arm on the tank, get your ass of the seat, and hang your head out.

[csmith12]

Another though along the lines of this thread.

For the straight up riders (not off the seat). Look at their heads. Tilted? Hmmmm.....