old lemon's second track day extravaganza

[Old Lemon]

Yesterday was my second track day at summit point west virginia at the shenendoah circuit. Long stories short, I was passing hella people in the novice group, dragged my kick stand mount (i think) twice, the second time didnt go so well. and move up to intermediate for one session as you will see why.

Link to original page on YouTube.

I drug a hard part mid corner which really upset the bike, straightened a little, and in my mind i was thinking lean more and try to save it, the video clearly shows target fixation lol. after i knew i was going in the grass i wanted to straighten as much as possible and slam the rear brake. that also didnt go as planned.

the bike suffered very minimal damage. I dislocated my left shoulder (typing with one hand is fun) and got a burn on my right forearm. This was my first intermediate session.

The control rider that gave me the bump up ride said i could be dragging knee on like every corner if i stuck my knee out. I told him i felt like my knee was out like almost perpendicular to the bike but he says i barely had it out at all. I normally only slid one cheek off and put my face to the mirror but if im dragging my kick stand mount before my knee whilst hanging off the bike, i must be doing something wrong.

im gonna upload a session of the day as well in a bit. the green line on the videos is cause my editing software is poop and im too lazy to find another one

Link to original page on YouTube.

novice session and why i went to intermediate lol

[cbinker]

if you are dragging hard parts, start moving to the inside of the bike, get your shoulders to the inside of the bike. Inside butt cheek off, while holding on with your outside thigh.

[EternalNewb]

Sorry about the crash. I'm glad it was at the track though, and that you're (mostly) ok.

[Boosted139]

Sorry to hear about the crash, but glad to hear you're relatively okay. Are all your videos from the camera mounted on the helmet? Hard to see whats going on from that angle in terms of BP, etc.

[Old Lemon]

this is the only angle i have as i only have one camera. I can assure you guys tho, my shoulders are dipped in, my face is at the mirror and like half of my butt is off. i just know something is wrong with my bp cause im pretty sure you should drag knee before hard parts if you are hanging. my videos wont help with bp tho

[Boosted139]

Originally Posted by Old Lemon

this is the only angle i have as i only have one camera. I can assure you guys tho, my shoulders are dipped in, my face is at the mirror and like half of my butt is off. i just know something is wrong with my bp cause im pretty sure you should drag knee before hard parts if you are hanging. my videos wont help with bp tho

Any pictures from a photographer at the event? I mean everything you're saying sounds right, so maybe you're not doing what you're saying or at least to the degree you think?

[csmith12]

Bummer yo, but glad you had fun and came back home relatively good. No real worries about anything, now that your 2nd day is done... you got plenty of time to work on the rest of the skills. Rushing need not apply.

Looks like a seriously fun track.

[CC Cowboy]

When you go off the track you really should get on the gas.

[cbinker]

where is your rear shock set? make sure it is set to the highest setting.

[Old Lemon]

there will be pictures uploaded by the photographer probably tomorrow. my suspension is set to 1, i asked some people at my first track day and said if ive never had any problems then change wasnt really necessary (i also weigh as much as a feather). I was going much faster this track day then my first, maybe that is something i do need to change now.

[cbinker]

if that is you in your avitar, it looks like you can get your shoulders more forward and down to the inside. but that is just my preference, I like to keep my chest in contact with the tank. being 6'1, sometimes my head even hits the wind screen.

[csmith12]

Originally Posted by Old Lemon

there will be pictures uploaded by the photographer probably tomorrow. my suspension is set to 1, i asked some people at my first track day and said if ive never had any problems then change wasnt really necessary (i also weigh as much as a feather). I was going much faster this track day then my first, maybe that is something i do need to change now.

The pics will tell you about your BP. And yea, your pace will have a large influence on where your suspension is set.

[Old Lemon]

that is me in my avatar from my first track day, my bp has definitely changed since then

[cbinker]

it is a very awkward and intense feeling, but if you can get down like, @csmith12, you will be doing it right.

[JohnnyBravo]

Folks around here say if you can only get to one Track the shenendoah circuit is the one to ride

What they said...
Fun = good
wreck = bad

[csmith12]

Oh! I forgot to ask, how about the ticking? Did you fix it trackside or still on deck to fix?

[Sirref]

ouch, good to see that you aren't seriously hurt though a dislocated shoulder sucks. Shenandoah is a fantastic circuit that I'm looking forward to riding in july.

As for the body positioning thing, where in the seat do you sit. I feel that if I were sitting forward in my seat my knee wouldn't go out properly vs my preferred location which is farther back where when in the hanging position the knee goes exactly where it should.

[Old Lemon]

updated op with another video, i didnt fix the tick, i figure now would be a good time to fix it lol. as for where i sit, id say far back with the inside cheek off. the pictures will tell.

o sh*t! random thumbnail gave it that lol. nice

[alex.s]

it's easy to tell from the video that you are either reverse seated (doubtful) or more likely very crossed up. look at the perspective of the video camera. i'm assuming its either on top or on the side of your head, and when you scrape, it is viewing the bike from the WRONG SIDE of the bike. that means you are extreeeeeemly crossed up.


try to put your inside ear on the asphalt.

[jeffb502]

Yikes...Glad you're mostly ok. That looks like a fun track, but kind of narrow and lacking run off area, especially where you went off.

The first thing that came to my mind when watching your crash video was the safety briefing at my (only) track day where they stressed the first thing you do if you can move is get out of the impact area. If anybody had target fixated on you the spot you were in at the end of the video didn't look like a good place to be.

Also, I hate to say it but I giggled a bit when your bike honked at you as you were both falling in the grass.

I'm not much help on the body position issue since I'm going to start working on that on my second track day. You can see my (lack of) proper position in the picture under my name, and the profile pic if you click on my name, which are from my first track day ever.

[Old Lemon]

Originally Posted by alex.s

it's easy to tell from the video that you are either reverse seated (doubtful) or more likely very crossed up. look at the perspective of the video camera. i'm assuming its either on top or on the side of your head, and when you scrape, it is viewing the bike from the WRONG SIDE of the bike. that means you are extreeeeeemly crossed up.


try to put your inside ear on the asphalt.

i see exactly what you mean, right after i scraped my body went bolt up right it seems. my camera is located directly on top of my helmet.

But i think i was only that extremely crossed up in this one instance, i dont think it happens (or if it does, definitely not to that extent) in the session i posted

[alex.s]

i know what you mean but it is when you are in trouble that you need good body position the most, not the other way around. easy to get yourself scared into bad body position but it should be the other way around. get scared, go full hardcore BP and drag that shoulder on the ground. maybe you'll make it to the other side

[Old Lemon]

honestly thats what i had going through my mind and what i thought i did.....until i saw the video and was soooooo wrong

[alex.s]

Originally Posted by Old Lemon

honestly thats what i had going through my mind and what i thought i did.....until i saw the video and was soooooo wrong

next time you have a chance, take a step back and go what you feel "slow" but smooth... people say 70%. a lot of people think this is 70% of this completely unrealistic superbadass that everyone deep down thinks they are. and so they wind up riding more like 90%... don't worry about other people, just leave a bike or two passing room on the inside and outside. now while you're mid corner it will feel like you are just sitting there forever.... so while you're sitting there wondering how long it will take to finally reach that apex, you can think about what position your body is in... where is your torso pointed? you want your torso flat with your neck pointing foward. what is more aerodynamic, a long skinny tube thing, or a tall, flat chested board thing? if you keep the center of your chest always touching the gas tank, you know you're in reasonable aero, which is important on a 250. its easy to pop up for braking and then go back down from the back of the seat. if your chest is touching a part of the tank, it's much easier to understand where you are in relation to the bike... what part is it touching? is it touching the center? or is it touching the side? what part of your chest is touching the tank? the top of your chest? or are you sitting to far forward and you're kinda hunched over the chest with your nuts and gut in the tank? if you're too forward, your knees stick out the side and you wind up trying to grip the tank by using the inside of your thigh which winds up just sliding and giving no real support. but if you scoot your ass back farther you can grab the bike in the cup of your knee kinda which means you can just shove your heel onto the foot peg under the lever and it locks in quite nice. what about your hand positioning? your head position? etc etc etc. while you're in a corner, if you're just smoothly going along at a reasonable pace and not trying to go faster than you know you can without pushing anything you should have some left over brain power to be self critical with your riding style. it's easy to miss mistakes that you make when you're doing a hundred other things.

[cbinker]

Just from the first 2 minutes of that video, yes i know you are behind a slow rider, you are too upright. we should still be able to see our speedometer in the picture if you had good body positioning.

I dont care if I hurt your feelings or get bad reps form this, but do you even know what the race line is on that track? yes you are going faster then most of those riders, but they are apexing the corners better then you. That is not Intermediate skill, speed maybe, but lines are terrible, it appears you are about 4 feet off the line in most corners.

[csmith12]

Common now brah... no he don't. One does not simply nail the race line on your 2nd track day. Context... it's important.

[psych0hans]

Why would you use your rear brake at all? Stay away from the rear brake at the track, ESPECIALLY for hard braking. Glad it wasn't worse and I'm sure you had fun good luck for your next track day and have a speedy recovery

[sharky nrk]

I think he meant rear brake in the grass, front brake on the grass is no fun lol

[Old Lemon]

@cbinker it takes much more than anyone can throw at me on the internet to hurt my feelings lol. I know my lines definitely are not the best.

And yea i was talking about the rear brake for the grass only

And apparently the track day photographers took like 4000 pictures so its gonna be like another day or so for them to upload them

[sharky nrk]

Just some comments as well....

1. Awesome for you to get to the track and have fun and improve yourself

2. If you were leaned over enough to drag the hard parts (and from the video its is kinda hard to say but doubtful), your leaning the bike way more than you should have to. I had a real problem with his (still work on it alot). I would crank the bike over like crazy because I couldn't convince my head it was ok to separate myself from the bike and get down to the inside to give back some lean angle.

3. Do you have stock rearsets? They should touch down well before the kickstand mount?

Pics from photog should definitely help understand what was going on better.

Either way heal up and keep improving!!!!!

[Old Lemon]

i have woodcraft rear sets, but yes i did drag the kickstand mount. I know these arent the best pictures but it definitely happened

[cbinker]

Originally Posted by psych0hans

Why would you use your rear brake at all? Stay away from the rear brake at the track, ESPECIALLY for hard braking. Glad it wasn't worse and I'm sure you had fun good luck for your next track day and have a speedy recovery

NO! Rear brake is very useful, even in hard braking and chassis stabilization in corners.

[cbinker]

Originally Posted by csmith12

Common now brah... no he don't. One does not simply nail the race line on your 2nd track day. Context... it's important.

I have some concerns about the organization, if he is being allowed in the intermediate group that far off line.

[sharky nrk]

Originally Posted by Old Lemon

i have woodcraft rear sets, but yes i did drag the kickstand mount. I know these arent the best pictures but it definitely happened

vid must have been misleading from the camera position, definitely gotta give back some lean angle with BP then.

[Old Lemon]

Originally Posted by cbinker

I have some concerns about the organization, if he is being allowed in the intermediate group that far off line.

that my be a valid point, there was a guy in intermediate all day who (may i add i could only see him for a couple turns as i waited to go for the novice session) had worse lines than i did.

The control rider i had ride with me for the bump up asked me why i didnt try to get a bump up sooner in the day, it was because i was trying to practice my lines, but i got more concerned with speed than i did lines. Ill be back there within the next couple months so i can keep working on these things for sure

[Old Lemon]

Originally Posted by cbinker

we should still be able to see our speedometer in the picture if you had good body positioning.

so like the corner at 4:37, is that good? i can remember i did that corner a little differently than the rest maybe cause it was the fastest corner

[cbinker]

Originally Posted by Old Lemon

so like the corner at 4:37, is that good? i can remember i did that corner a little differently than the rest maybe cause it was the fastest corner

it appears that you have your head lower in that corner then all the others. eventually, you will be going faster, and looking further down the track and chances are you will be seeing the mirror brackets instead of the speedo.

[Old Lemon]

i see

[alex.s]

one thing i keep notice you doing is going back to center on the bike. don't bother. set up for the next turn asap. let the bike come up in the turn before you do... do not pull your body up, let the bike bring you up until you are up and down then you can move your body if you want. but if you have another turn coming up and don't need to move your body, don't bother moving it twice when you can get away with none.

[gogoKawi]

I rode up there that day to see a couple of friends. I wish I knew you were there. It would have motivated me to hit the track. Next time you go, give me a shout.

Funny thing I have you subbed on youtube. I just saw your crash vid and immediately came to the forum. I figured there was a post about it. :-)

That particular turn where you crashed has a really bumpy area, which you were right in the middle of. On the 250, you can go full throttle and you will be fine. Do you still have stock pegs? My guess is that's what you were dragging. I doubt it was the kickstand at that angle and that speed. If you were closer to the curb, maybe.

I absolutely love this track. I think it was made for a 250, just a 250 with rear sets and the stand mount cut off. Coming over the hill before the range esses is where I drag the stand. Also the bottom of the bowl. Rear sets help a whole lot there.

You definitely belong in intermediate with Roger Lyle. You looked like you were having a lot of fun out there, and looked really good.