Blew a corner today

[soggybottom]

I consider myself a novice. I've probably got 3-4 years experience, maybe 5k to 8k miles a year. I don't push the limits, and am generally very cautious and aware.

Today I was out enjoying some hilly, twisty roads. I was riding well within my limits, being cautious of the sandy roads, and having a great time. Then I came to a blind corner. I was daydreaming, came in way too hot, and before I knew it I was leaned farther than I am comfortable on a public road, and riding the yellow line. I panicked and rolled off the gas, which unloaded the rear, making me feel even less in control, and making me cross the yellow. I didn't slide the rear or run off the road, there was no oncoming traffic, but I was shook up for a few minutes. It could have easily been much worse.

I've done that corner probably a dozen times before with no problems, and have come into corners with too much speed before and reacted appropriately. It was just a lapse in focus, and a panicked reaction. I tell this story to hopefully remind everyone to keep your wits about you, and stay focused.

[fishdip]

Originally Posted by soggybottom

I consider myself a novice. I've probably got 3-4 years experience, maybe 5k to 8k miles a year. I don't push the limits, and am generally very cautious and aware.

Yesterday I was out enjoying some hilly, twisty roads. I was riding well within my limits, being cautious of the sandy roads, and having a great time. Then I came to a blind corner. I was daydreaming, came in way too hot, and before I knew it I was leaned farther than I am comfortable on a public road, and riding the yellow line. I panicked and rolled off the gas, which unloaded the rear, making me feel even less in control, and making me cross the yellow. I didn't slide the rear or run off the road, there was no oncoming traffic, but I was shook up for a few minutes. It could have easily been much worse.

I've done that corner probably a dozen times before with no problems, and have come into corners with too much speed before and reacted appropriately. It was just a lapse in focus, and a panicked reaction. I tell this story to hopefully remind everyone to keep your wits about you, and stay focused.

Did you soggy your bottoms

[kirk595x]

I'm glad you did'nt ditch it!!

[csmith12]

stay frosty

[Xoulrath]

Originally Posted by soggybottom

I've done that corner probably a dozen times before with no problems, and have come into corners with too much speed before and reacted appropriately. It was just a lapse in focus, and a panicked reaction. I tell this story to hopefully remind everyone to keep your wits about you, and stay focused.

Thanks, that is always something to be aware of.

[Boosted139]

Keep in mind if you roll off the throttle and keep the same lean angle you'll actually tighten your turn radius.

This is a really good reason (and habit to get into) to actual trail brake on the streets. It gives you that extra sense of security if you come into a turn a little too hot and need to scrub off speed and tighten up your turning radius.

Glad to hear you made it out okay!

[BlueHairSar]

Glad you're okay!

[Panda]

Glad you're ok! Practice trail braking!

[adouglas]

Textbook.

As in Twist of the Wrist II. Get it and read it.

You had what Code calls Survival Reaction #1… you got off the throttle.

VERY glad you're okay.

I respectfully disagree with the above about trail braking and especially with the observation about rolling off with the same lean angle, because it suggests that chopping the throttle is a good way to change your line if you go in too hot.

If you roll off you unload the rear. Less rear traction means you could break loose -- which is EXACTLY what came close to happening here. If that does happen there's the real risk of a highside as the rear wheel regains traction.

If you're already deep in the corner and you've blown it (past your personal limits, anyway), IMHO it's a bit late to trail brake. That requires a lot of care and attention, and chances are you don't have the presence of mind to do it properly give that you're already soiling your shorts from going in too hot. Overdo it and you lose traction.

Trail braking is IMHO an advanced skill best suited for the track. It's better to spend your practice time getting comfortable with steeper lean angles and proper throttle control.

The bike is okay right up until hard parts touch the ground. IMHO the right thing to do is keep that rear loaded and lean even more. That means stay on the throttle… a nice, even, slow acceleration through the corner, just like you were taught in MSF.

You've had a valuable first-hand lesson in what happens if you don't do that. You almost crashed because you let off the gas.

Just my $0.02. I'm far from being an expert.

[psych0hans]

Glad it wasn't a crash... Like adouglas said, read the book and watch the DVD. It'll help you loads.

[csmith12]

Values of trail braking;

To set a good corner entry speed
To allow a very late braking mark in a corner during a race or track riding event
To scrub off a bit more speed for a corner, if you can catch it in time before lean angles become to steep.

There is a bit of value of trail braking in a street setting, if the technique is used skillfully and timed well. But in Rory's case, that time was most likely past. The window of opportunity is very small while on public roads. And to agree with adouglas, one should hold back enough while on the street to never really need this skill. But sh*t happens ya know.... why not take advantage if it's a viable option? A wiser rider than me said, "If you know your gunna crash, use every trick in the book to try to save it. Never give up!"

Like many track/racing skills, some can be employed to "save your arse" on the street. For example, Rory might have been able to hold his line with a "hook turn". Although, I am sure most here would say, just continue the throttle roll and lean more, which requires a steering correction to tighten the line. Each has pro's and cons.

[Panda]

Originally Posted by adouglas

Textbook.
I respectfully disagree with the above about trail braking and especially with the observation about rolling off with the same lean angle, because it suggests that chopping the throttle is a good way to change your line if you go in too hot.

"Once the throttle is cracked on it is rolled evenly smoothly, and constantly throughout the reminder of the turn."

This is great advice if you've cracked the throttle at the correct part of the turn but what if you haven't? Lean and pray works great if you have the skill and the clearance to lean more. Your bag full of luck could be particularly full that day but what if it's not?

I agree that you should "practice... getting comfortable with steeper lean angles and proper throttle control." But I'd also assert you should spend time learning how to brake in straight lines and in turns. The bike can do three things go, stop, and turn.

------------------------

http://yamahafz1oa.com/forum/showpos...15&postcount=1

"If you have to stop in a corner, one of two things will happen. One, you will stand the bike up and ride it off the shoulder and into whatever is over there. Or two, you will lay the bike down and slide off the shoulder of the road. Braking is done before, or after a corner. The best thing to do before taking a corner is to grind the thought "I'm going to turn this corner" into your mind."

Hiya FZ1 lovers.

I’ve stewed for two days about the above quote taken from another FZ1OA thread...and finally decided to launch this thread. In past years I would have just rolled my eyes and muttered, “Whatever”…but not anymore. I want to tell you that there are measureable, explainable, repeatable, do-able reasons that make great riders great. And brake usage is at the very tippity-top of these reasons. It’ll save your life, it’ll make you a champion. It will save and grow our sport.

I’ll ask this one favor: Would you open your mind to what I’m about to write, then go out and mess around with it?
To begin: Realize that great motorcycle riding is more subtle in its inputs than most of us imagine. I bet you are moving your hand too quickly with initial throttle and brakes. Moving your right foot too quickly with initial rear brake. The difference between a lap record and a highside is minute, almost-immeasureable differences in throttle and lean angle. The difference between hitting the Camaro in your lane and missing it by a foot is the little things a rider can do with speed control at lean angle. Brakes at lean angle. Brakes in a corner.

Yes, a rider can brake in a corner. Yes. For sure. Guaranteed. I promise. Happens all the time. I do it on every ride, track or street. Yes, a rider can stop in a corner. In fact, any student who rides with the Yamaha Champions Riding School will tell you it’s possible. Complete stop, mid-corner…no drama. Newbies and experts alike.

There are some interesting processes to this sport, mostly revolving around racing. But as I thought about this thread, putting numbers on each thought made more sense because explaining these concepts relies on busting some myths and refining your inputs. Some things must be ingrained…like #1 below.

1)You never, ever, never stab at the brakes. Understand a tire’s grip this way: Front grip is divided between lean angle points and brake points, rear grip is lean angle points and acceleration points, lean angle points and brake points. Realize that the tire will take a great load, but it won’t take a sudden load…and so you practice this smooth loading at every moment in/on every vehicle. If you stab the brakes (um...or throttle...) in your pickup, you berate yourself because you know that the stab, at lean angle on your motorcycle (and bicycle, btw), will be a crash.

2)Let’s examine tire grip. If you’re leaned over at 95% (95 points in my book Sport Riding Techniques and fastersafer.com) of the tires’ available grip, you still have 5% of that grip available for braking (or accelerating). But maybe you only have 3%!!! You find out because you always add braking “points” in a smooth, linear manner. As the front tire reaches its limit, it will squirm and warn you…if that limit is reached in a linear manner.
It’s the grabbing of 30 points that hurts anyone leaned over more than 70 points. If you ride slowly with no lean angle, you will begin to believe that aggressiveness and grabbing the front brake lever is okay…and it is…until you carry more lean angle (or it’s raining, or you’re on a dirt road or your tire’s cold…pick your excuse). Do you have a new rider in your life? Get them thinking of never, ever, never grabbing the brakes. Throttle too…

3)If you STAB the front brake at lean angle, one of two things will happen. If the grip is good, the fork will collapse and the bike will stand up and run wide. If the grip is not-so-good, the front tire will lock and slide. The italicized advice at the beginning was written by a rider who aggressively goes after the front brake lever. His bike always stands up or lowsides. He’s inputting brake force too aggressively, too quickly...he isn't smoothly loading the fork springs or loading the tire. He may not believe this, but the tire will handle the load he wants, but the load must be fed-in more smoothly…and his experience leads to written advice that will hurt/kill other riders. “Never touch the brakes at lean angle?” Wrong. “Never grab the brakes at lean angle?” Right!

But what about the racers on TV who lose the front in the braking zone? Pay attention to when they lose grip. If it’s immediately, it’s because they stabbed the brake at lean angle. If it’s late in the braking zone, it’s because they finally exceeded 100 points of grip deep in the braking zone…if you’re adding lean angle, you’ve got to be “trailing off” the brakes as the tire nears its limit.

4) Radius equals MPH. Realize that speed affects the bike’s radius at a given lean angle. If the corner is tighter than expected, continue to bring your speed down. What’s the best way to bring your speed down? Roll off the throttle and hope you slow down? Or roll off the throttle and squeeze on a little brake? Please don’t answer off the top of your head…answer after you’ve experimented in the real world.

Do this: Ride in a circle in a parking lot at a given lean angle. That’s your radius. Run a circle or two and then slowly sneak on more throttle at the same lean angle and watch what your radius does. Now ride in the circle again, and roll off the throttle…at the same lean angle. You are learning Radius equals MPH. You are learning what throttle and off-throttle does to your radius through steering geometry changes and speed changes. You are learning something on your own, rather than asking for advice on subjects that affect your health and life. (You will also learn why I get so upset when new riders are told to push on the inside bar and pick up the throttle if they get in the corner too fast. Exactly the opposite of what the best riders do. But don’t believe me…try it.)

Let me rant for a moment: Almost every bit of riding advice works when the pace is low and the grip is high. It’s when the corner tightens or the sleet falls or the lap record is within reach…then everything counts.

“Get all your braking done before the turn,” is good riding advice. But what if you don’t? What if the corner goes the other way and is tighter and there’s gravel? It’s then that you don’t need advice, you need riding technique. Theory goes out the window and if you don’t perform the exact action, you will be lying in the dirt, or worse. Know that these techniques are not only understandable, but do-able by you. Yes you! I’m motivated to motivate you due to what I’ve seen working at Freddie’s school and now the Champ school…

I’m telling you this: If you can smoothly, gently pick-up your front brake lever and load the tire, you can brake at any lean angle on and FZ1. Why? Because our footpegs drag before our tires lose grip when things are warm and dry. It might be only 3 points, but missing the bus bumper by a foot is still missing the bumper! If it’s raining, you simply take these same actions and reduce them…you can still mix lean angle and brake pressure, but with considerably less of each. Rainy and cold? Lower still, but still combine-able.

5)So you’re into a right-hand corner and you must stop your bike for whatever reason. You close the throttle and sneak on the brakes lightly, balancing lean angle points against brake points. As you slow down, your radius continues to tighten. You don’t want to run off the inside of the corner, so you take away lean angle. What can you do with the brakes when you take away lean angle? Yes! Squeeze more. Stay with it and you will stop your bike mid-corner completely upright. No drama. But don’t just believe me…go prove it to yourself.

6)Let’s examine the final sentence in the italicized quote. The best thing to do before taking a corner is to grind the thought "I'm going to turn this corner" into your mind.

No, that’s not the best thing. It’s not the worst thing and I’m all for positive thinking, but we all need to see the difference between riding advice and riding techniques. This advice works until you enter a corner truly beyond your mental, physical or mechanical limits. I would change this to: The best thing to do before taking a corner is to scan with your eyes, use your brakes until you’re happy with your speed and direction, sneak open your throttle to maintain your chosen speed and radius, don’t accelerate until you can see your exit and can take away lean angle.

7)Do you think I’m being over-dramatic by claiming this will save our sport? Are we crashing because we’re going too slowly in the corners or too fast? Yes, too fast. What component reduces speed? Brakes. What component calms your brain? Brakes. What component, when massaged skillfully, helps the bike turn? Brakes. If riders are being told that they can’t use the brakes at lean angle, you begin to see the reason for my drama level. When I have a new rider in my life, my third priority is to have them, “Turn into the corner with the brake-light on.”

I’ve said it before: This is the only bike forum I’m a member of. I like it, I like the peeps, I like the info, I love the bike. Could we begin to change the information we pass along regarding brakes and lean angle? Could we control our sport by actually controlling our motorcycles? If we don’t control our sport, someone else will try. Closed throttle, no brakes is “out of the controls”. Get out there and master the brakes.
Thanks, I feel better.

Nick Ienatsch
Yamaha Champions Riding School
Fastersafer.com

[Boosted139]

I didn't mean to infer that he should have randomly braked in the corner and notice how I said roll off the throttle mid corner, not snap it shut.

You'll be amazed how much you can brake at lean angle if you apply these actions SMOOTHLY. Tires can take a lot of load, just not a sudden load. As Nick Ienatsch says, you have 100 points of grip to be using for lean angle, grip and accelerating. If you are using 50 points for lean angle you can still use another 50 for braking or accelerating.

I think the best option for this scenario would just o be lean more into the corner and keep steady throttle, not necessarily keep rolling on because this will actually increase your turning radius.

As far as trail braking me an advanced skill, I wish people wouldn't see it as so. Once you get over the idea hammered into you by MSF that you never touch the brakes once you enter a corner, it's not that scary. Trust me I had my apprehensions at first, but those quickly go away. Again this can be a life saving habit on the street.

I always suggest people go to a parking lot and go in a circle say at 15mph. Notice how big of a circle you are going in. Roll on a little throttle to say 20mph and notice how your circle gets bigger holding the same lean angle. Smoothly roll back off the throttle and your line tightens up. This is a great drill to show that it really works. There are also great trail breaking drills you can do to get comfortable with the idea. I'd personally highly recommend it to any rider, street or track.

*EDIT*

Thanks rPanda for going where I was with Nick. Guys Nick and Ken know what they're talking about. Plus I've had the chance to talk to these guys on multiple occasions in person and on the phone about riding and they rock

[choneofakind]

I won't touch trail braking on the street. I got it a little last time I was at the track, but I never really perfected the timing and it required tons of thought.

I have used a hook turn on the street to avoid someone who was across the double yellow in a blind turn (coming right at me!) but other than that, I don't ride all that hard on the street.

[Boosted139]

Originally Posted by choneofakind

I won't touch trail braking on the street. I got it a little last time I was at the track, but I never really perfected the timing and it required tons of thought.

I have used a hook turn on the street to avoid someone who was across the double yellow in a blind turn (coming right at me!) but other than that, I don't ride all that hard on the street.

I promise you it doesn't . The idea is to be on the brakes until you are comfortable with your corner speed. No timing involved. Okay somewhat of a lie. If you are a pro you know the exact slowest point of a corner and how fast you need to be going there, but hey we aren't pros here. Just talking about being as safe as possible and using all the tools we have available.

[choneofakind]

Promise me it doesn't what?

...and yes I know the idea behind trail braking. I just said that I was working on it at the track. You can brake LATE and DEEP into the first turn off the back straight at mid-ohio. But the fact that I'm not perfect at it and I have to think about it means that I don't feel comfortable using it on the street. I also see no need. Just slow down in advance.

You'd laugh at my street pace: I ride speed limit +or- 5, then crank it through turns. Then I engine brake back to +or- 5. I don't even touch the brakes unless it's a downhill turn.

I still sucked at the timing when I was working on it though. I won't touch it on the street.

[csmith12]

I feel that the Yamaha 100 points stuff is a good compliment to the TOTWII material. Although, I don't think that new/novice riders should combine the two. I think they really sink in after about 15 or so track days.

I know first hand you CAN break the rulez mid-corner and still come out golden on the other end but requires a really good feel for how much traction is really there. And yea... I have gotten it wrong too and recieved a face full of pavement as a price . lol

[Boosted139]

I'm not saying a brand new riding should master trail braking before they can shift gears. It just gets my blood boiling when new riders have it beat into their head they cannot make changes mid corner, to just ride it out and hope for the best. This really creates some bad habits, especially once you hit the track.

We all know street riding and track riding are very different and I hope you don't ride the street as you would on a track, but trail braking on the street with only a 5% brake pull can make a pretty big difference believe it or not. Also that keeps you fairly out of the range of it going wrong. Again if you are already pushing the limits on the street this may cause you grief, but you shouldn't be doing that.

If you sit on your bike and rock it back and forth in neutral and apply the brakes very slowly. Eventually you come to a point where the brakes stop the bike completely. That's already past the point of how much break pressure to apply when trail breaking (especially on the street). So this is good way to feel how much braking can be applied.

And just once again trail braking on the street is a safety technique, not an excuse to go faster. It just simply gives you that option of more control if you do in fact need it. If you are already riding within your limits you'll probably never need it!

[ally99]

Originally Posted by Boosted139

Keep in mind if you roll off the throttle and keep the same lean angle you'll actually tighten your turn radius.

This is a really good reason (and habit to get into) to actual trail brake on the streets. It gives you that extra sense of security if you come into a turn a little too hot and need to scrub off speed and tighten up your turning radius.
!

Be careful advising relatively inexperienced folks of advanced techniques. Never come off the throttle midcorner unless you really know what the hell you're doing. One shouldn't be pushing hard enough on the streets to need to trailbrake. Save that for the track.
On the street, you are always better staying on the throttle than coming off it. Once you crack it, roll on consistently because your bike loses speed as it leans. You at least want to provide enough gas for "maintenance throttle" as in maintaining your current speed throughout the corner. The bike is more stable that way AND will likely pull through just fine...much more likely than if you suddenly come off the throttle or (YIKES) hit the brakes.

Originally Posted by adouglas

Textbook.

As in Twist of the Wrist II. Get it and read it.

You had what Code calls Survival Reaction #1… you got off the throttle.

VERY glad you're okay.

I respectfully disagree with the above about trail braking and especially with the observation about rolling off with the same lean angle, because it suggests that chopping the throttle is a good way to change your line if you go in too hot.

If you roll off you unload the rear. Less rear traction means you could break loose -- which is EXACTLY what came close to happening here. If that does happen there's the real risk of a highside as the rear wheel regains traction.

If you're already deep in the corner and you've blown it (past your personal limits, anyway), IMHO it's a bit late to trail brake. That requires a lot of care and attention, and chances are you don't have the presence of mind to do it properly give that you're already soiling your shorts from going in too hot. Overdo it and you lose traction.

Trail braking is IMHO an advanced skill best suited for the track. It's better to spend your practice time getting comfortable with steeper lean angles and proper throttle control.

The bike is okay right up until hard parts touch the ground. IMHO the right thing to do is keep that rear loaded and lean even more. That means stay on the throttle… a nice, even, slow acceleration through the corner, just like you were taught in MSF.

You've had a valuable first-hand lesson in what happens if you don't do that. You almost crashed because you let off the gas.

Just my $0.02. I'm far from being an expert.

--from Permanoob.

[choneofakind]

I still refuse to touch brakes in a turn on street. I'm a firm believer in going too slow into a turn to give myself a margin of safety.

[adouglas]

The unwritten assumption in much of the above is that you've got the presence of mind to apply just the right amount of brake pressure and/or roll off just the right amount of throttle. For a new rider in over his head, that's open to debate.

Sure you can brake in the corner. Never said you can't. But consider the circumstances described in the original post.

Let's break this down to the basic elements. The OP was daydreaming and went in too hot. He's a new-ish rider. Right off the bat, he's behind the ball and in survival/reaction mode. Therefore, not likely to be thinking about whether he's using 5 "braking points" or 50.

Is it really reasonable to assume that he would NOT stab at the brakes or chop the throttle? These techniques take practice.

So in that particular circumstance (novice rider, distracted/panicked), would playing with trail braking be more or less dangerous? Would rolling off the throttle be more or less dangerous? He did roll off the throttle and the bike got squirrely.

Ienatsch's post included this:

Do you have a new rider in your life? Get them thinking of never, ever, never grabbing the brakes. Throttle too…

About frustration over telling people they cannot brake in the corner.... I do have a few small issues with the things they teach at MSF, but I recognize that they're trying to keep new riders alive by simplifying the workload.

Example: They ping you if you cover the brake. I ALWAYS cover the brake because it reduces reaction time. So why do they teach that? I suspect it's because they're worried that a new rider will grab it hard in a panic. Same goes for braking in turns. They're trying to take the panic reaction off the table.

[Panda]

Originally Posted by adouglas

Is it really reasonable to assume that he would NOT stab at the brakes or chop the throttle? These techniques take practice.

Totally agree that it takes practice. So that when an emergency situation comes up the rider has this tool in his/her tool belt to determine the best way to avoid an emergency situation from turning into a disaster.

The part that gets me in threads like these is when people advocate not using the brakes in a turn at all.

[adouglas]

Question about the observation regarding "constant lean angle."

Is it clear that this is not a real riding technique?

In my world lean angle is never fixed. Speed, acceleration (both ways... under power and under braking) and lean are all dynamic and constantly changing.

I get the point that if you DO fix the lean angle then your speed will govern turn radius. It is therefore just an illustration to show how speed/acceleration and turn radius are linked. But that's not reality on the street... at least in my experience. It might be misconstrued as a preferred method to tighten the turn.

Something important is that it ignores the fact that you change the front/rear load balance when you dramatically futz with the throttle mid-corner... which is why the OP's bike got out of shape.

I suggest that the same goes for braking. Ienatsch's long post is full of really great information about this, and he says again and again that grabbing a fistful of brake is a bad thing. It's a matter of subtlety.

rPanda wrote that the bike "can do three things: go, stop and turn."

I'll rephrase that slightly to read the bike can accelerate, brake and lean. That's all. The goal, I believe, is to balance the three so that the bike is settled and stable at all times.

Of the three, which one is capable of upsetting the bike fastest and to the greatest degree? I believe the answer is brake, because the forces are so high. Look at the forces F1 drivers experience... they accelerate at just over 1g but brake at 4+g.

Point here is that it's easier to screw up braking IMHO because you've got huge amounts of power literally at your fingertips.

[Panda]

So total thread jack but IIRC a superbike will:

~1G acceleration
~1.2G braking
~1.3G cornering

[Boosted139]

Again rPanda and I didn't say that the OP should have just jammed the brakes or even have the presence of mind to remember mid corner oh hey I can brake here. All we are saying is its a good skill to practice and could be used to avoid a situation from happening. Again I'm not trying to argue with anyone here, but this is in fact a useful street technique. Not to push the limits like you would on the track, but ti give you an extra safety net of adjustment mid corner instead of riding it out and hoping for the best.

As far as constant lean angle, sure, but telling someone to roll on the throttle without adding significant more lean angle is dangerous because you'll just continue to run wide. So why try to lean a bike more (when you're already uncomfortable) and go faster, when you can just simply slow down which will tighten up your turn.

Again you wouldn't do this if you didn't already get in over your head. This wouldn't be normal, but again in my opinion its more safer than pushing even further past your lean and speed limits for the corner.

We can argue all day over which is the better technique, but let's just be happy the OP made it out okay and ran ride on another day.

[choneofakind]

You add throttle starting at apex. By definition you want to run wide starting at that point. A smooth gradual roll-on will help you get where you want to me.

Slow
Look
Press
Roll

That's the steps. The idea is to keep them separate and do them smoothly. This will keep the bike happy through every turn.

[csmith12]

Originally Posted by Boosted139

As far as constant lean angle, sure, but telling someone to roll on the throttle without adding significant more lean angle is dangerous because you'll just continue to run wide. So why try to lean a bike more (when you're already uncomfortable) and go faster, when you can just simply slow down which will tighten up your turn.

The answer to this question is time and space. When you roll off, it takes time and space to tighten the turn as the bike slows. Also, the act of rolling off can send the bike just as wide as rolling on hard. Where as a steering correction + throttle yields immediate results. Which is better? It don't really matter as long as you have available pavement and traction to spare. When your out of time and space, rope it in immediately.

[Boosted139]

Originally Posted by csmith12

The answer to this question is time and space. When you roll off, it takes time and space to tighten the turn as the bike slows. Also, the act of rolling off can send the bike just as wide as rolling on hard. Where as a steering correction + throttle yields immediate results. Which is better? It don't really matter as long as you have available pavement and traction to spare. When your out of time and space, rope it in immediately.

If you're already in that oh crap moment, sure do whatever gets you immediately out of that situation. If you trail brake properly you'll never get to this moment even if you come in a little too fast. You'll do most your braking upright and then keep slowing into the turn until you reach a point where you know you are good (ideally near the apex) and then you can roll on to maintain and then accelerate out of the corner.

Again trail braking isn't mid way through a turn deciding to apply brakes. It's keeping the brakes applied when you turn in until you are happy with your speed.

[adouglas]

Originally Posted by Boosted139

We can argue all day over which is the better technique, but let's just be happy the OP made it out okay and ran ride on another day.

Agreed!

This is an interesting discussion nevertheless. I've learned some things myself.

Bottom line IMHO is that hard-and-fast rules are misleading at best. Riding a bike is not a digital, black-and-white thing. It's analog... constantly changing, with infinite variability. The key is understanding the forces and inputs and balancing everything.

[csmith12]

[Panda]

Sometimes when I go into corners too hot I like to aim for cyclists to run over to slow myself down.

[csmith12]

[250rr]

Great discussion! I have experimented with trail braking. Not expertly, mind you. I always just apply enough brakes to feel the resistance, then no more.

[psych0hans]

Originally Posted by rPanda

Sometimes when I go into corners too hot I like to aim for cyclists to run over to slow myself down.

[alex.s]

"Blew a coroner today"

-- how much do you charge?

[Live2ride]

Originally Posted by alex.s

"Blew a coroner today"

-- how much do you charge?

Wouldn't you like to know? Alex, its a shame that you have to contact your competition directly, just let him post a price and I'm sure you can undercut it. Hell, Kevin said you gave him a freebie for being such a loyal customer.

[alex.s]

nah bro. its a 2-for-1 coupon.

[soggybottom]

Oh my. I didn't expect so much response.

I really appreciate all the instruction.

I have done a great deal of reading and movie watching on technique (WI winters are very long), so I can't say I don't know better. I have a good amount of miles behind me (street and dirt) without mishap, but all the training and education in the world don't matter if you flat out aren't paying attention.

I'm taking it as a reminder to myself to stay alert.

[soggybottom]

Originally Posted by alex.s

"Blew a coroner today"

-- how much do you charge?

I guess not enough. My wife's always complaining about money.

[csmith12]

It was more of a healthy discussion than instruction.