Cheap gear for newbies (Bilt gear?)

[M42]

Originally Posted by MrAtom

Haha I know you were joking but I think your answer could possibly have some merit to it. I mean, those parkour guys who jump off of tall buildings and don't get hurt obviously have some level of ability to prevent injury to their body when faced with a lot of force.

Uh, I do parkour, there's really no merit to this. It's a whole different ball game from a motorcycle crash. In parkour you're just flinging your own body weight around, and you have time to plan your landing/rolls (which is why they jump off buildings unharmed). They're not "faced with" a lot of force, they dissipate it around their body and into the ground instead of being smashed by it by rolling.

On a motorcycle you're travelling dozens of times faster than your body naturally can, hitting other objects that are travelling just as fast (or stationary objects with all your momentum). A crash happens in an absolute split second, most people's recollection is just toodling along and then lying on the ground. You don't have time to plan a roll or whatever. Not to mention you'd be unable to do a proper parkour roll with your gigantic helmet...

[ninjakuma]

Originally Posted by M42

Uh, I do parkour

Cool good for you. I never once mentioned parkour. Learning how to fall is completely different than doing a "pk roll" or whatever you call it. While I have never been in a high speed motorcycle accident, I have spoken to coworkers who have, and their awareness with tumbling during the course of the crash saved them from serious injury. Btw it is fairly easy to roll in any direction with a helmet on. The point is not doing a "parkour flip" as you for some reason thought I meant, the point is if you are thrown from the bike, you have the awareness to say, if I go straight into the ground this way, I'm going to break something, and to rotate to facilitate a safer impact.

Bringing me back to my main point earlier. If you don't have padding or armor on your clothes you best know how to put a meaty part of your body on the ground first or expect elbows, knees, and other knobby bony parts to get damaged. Yes you are right, most people don't have time to react in a crash, because they don't know what it's like to hit the ground and how to control that. With training it becomes second nature just like..almost walking into a spider web and you flinch out of the way, or any other unconscious reaction

[M42]

I was talking to the other guy to clarify, because he mentioned parkour specifically, not you. I agree with you

[choneofakind]

So, as I ride more, I have a harder and harder time understanding why you intentionally look for cheap gear just because you're new. Sure, we want to save money where possible, but buying jank stuff isn't the way to do it. I will admit, I bought less gear than I should have when I started. But I've also learned a ton of respect for how nice it is to have quality gear on during a crash. Here's the thing; learning riders hit the pavement just as hard and fast as (and a little more frequently than) experienced riders. Therefore, why skimp on gear just because you're a noob? Same flaw with the logic used by scooter culture. Why does riding a scooter make it okay to not wear any gear? The asphalt doesn't care. If you fall off at 35, it doesn't matter if you fell of a motorcycle, scooter, car, bicycle, semi, tractor, or SUV. It doesn't matter if you're a novice or a long time rider. It's going to hurt!

It would make sense to me to look for quality gear for sale price rather than looking for cheap gear. If you're just looking to save some $$$, you'll be able to do that, but at the expense of buying a one-time-use piece of gear. When you consider that nice gear often allows for multiple crashes and cheap stuff likes to fall apart from little accidents, it doesn't seem so crazy to pay more for nicer, properly sized stuff in the first place.

[ForceofWill]

^ Agreed. I bought really good stuff when I started and guess what, I still use it.

Honestly though if I couldn't have leather I'd be looking here.

http://www.motoport.com/index.php?op...tail&Itemid=15

[MrAtom]

Originally Posted by choneofakind

If you're just looking to save some $$$, you'll be able to do that, but at the expense of buying a one-time-use piece of gear.

That was the idea. I thought basically all gear was typically good for just one crash? Like a helmet.

[NevadaWolf]

Depends on the crash. Some gear holds up better in basic slides and can withstand going down a few times whereas poorer materials will disintegrate after the first encounter with asphalt.

Stolen from elsewhere on the net...

Been some questions about what kind of gear to buy. Found this awhile back and thought might be good to post up again.


Tear and Abrasion Strength by the numbers
Pounds of force until fabric tears Abrasion cycles on pavement until fabric fails
CottonJeans 4.5 pounds to tear 50 cycles to failure
70 Denier Standard Nylon 4.5 pounds to tear 165 cycles to failure
500 Denier Polyester 8 pounds to tear 180 cycles to failure
200 Denier Standard Nylon 7.5 pounds to tear 275 cycles to failure
500 Denier Cordura 22 pounds to tear 710 cycles to failure
620 Denier Cordura 35 pounds to tear 1200 cycles to failure
NEW Competition Grade Leather 80-110 pounds to tear 1200-1700 cycles to failure
1000 Denier Cordura 110 pounds to tear 1780 cycles to failure
Air Mesh Kevlar 1260 pounds to tear 970 cycles to failure Stretch Kevlar Blend 420lbs pounds to tear 1800 cycles to failure

This is how quickly some materials take to hole:
Material Seconds
Denim 0.2 to 0.5
Some race gloves 0.6
Most leather gloves 1.0 to 1.8
Keprotec stretch material 0.9
Poor Kevlar 1.0
Two layers of waxed cotton 1.3
1.3mm thick cow hide 3.8
Two layers of 1.3mm thick cowhide 18
Three layers of 1.3mm thick cowhide 55
Two layers of Kevlar plain weave 5.6
Suede 18
Boot leather (generally 2.2mm thick) 20
Leather stretch panels 20.4


There is also this test from a while back:

Drag Test

"For the Drag Test, samples were stitched to a bag that held a 75-pound
sandbag inside a milk crate, then dragged behind a pickup truck..."

New, 100% Cotton Denim Jeans ----------------------- 3' 10"
Senior Balistic Nylon ----------------------------------- 3' 10"
Leather, Lightweight, Nude Finish, 2.25 oz/sq. ft. --- 4' 3"
Leather, Fashion Weight, 1.75 oz/sq ft. ------------- 4' 4"
Two-year-old 100% Cotton Denim Jeans ------------ 4' 5"
Cordura Nylon Type 440 ----------------------------- 18' 3"
Kevlar 29 Aramid Fiber, Style 713 ------------------ 22' 1"
Leather, Competition Weight, 3 oz/sq. ft. -------- 86' 0"


Taber Test

"For the Taber Test, the specimen was mounted on a rotating platform and
scuffed by two rubber-emery grinding wheels." The numbers represent the
number of revolutions until the fabric totally fails. A vacuum clears
debris.

Two-year-old 100% Cotton Denim Jeans 168
New 100% Cotton Denim Jeans 225
Kevlar 29 Aramid Fiber, Style 713 506
Cordura Nylon, Type 440 559
Leather, Lightweight, Nude Finish, 2.25 oz./sq. ft. 564
Leather, Fashion Weight, 1.75 oz./sq. ft. 750
Senior Ballistic Nylon 817
Leather, Competition Weight, 3 oz./sq. ft. 2600

More to consider...

"Finally, protection from road abrasion cannot be guaranteed by a
materials abrasion resistance alone. A jacket may have panels of
highly abrasion-resistant materials, yet if low-quality stitching joins
those panels and the seams come apart upon impact or during a slide, then
the abrasion resistance of the panels could count for nothing.
Furthermore, an ill-fitting garment may ride up in a slide, contorting
the body and exposing the skin. And the best jacket in the world, left
unzipped and/or unsnapped, won't give riders the protection they pay
for. When it comes to safety, the issues are more complex than just the
abrasion resistance of materials." __________________

From another site:

The textiles vs leathers debate is all about tradeoffs. Choosing which material to use to cover your hide with and spend your pennies on depends on how much you value individual tradeoffs and ultimately, your intended use and riding conditions. Sounds easy enough, but deciding between textiles vs leathers has had great rider minds in a muddle and increasingly so over the last couple of years as the quality and versatility of both materials has improved so much! Just type in “textiles vs leathers ” into google and you will find that 90% of the results are from forums with the answer ultimately resulting in the fact that it depends on your personal preferences. The problem is that this does not help those new to the biking world who have not had the time or experience to develop their own, well-guided preferences… and so the argument goes on.
But, it’s really quite simple if you use the BMI (Best Motorcycle Information) textiles vs leathers test. This test takes the four most differentiating attributes of the two materials into consideration – price, maintenance, comfort and protection. Each attribute is also assigned to either leathers or textiles, depending on which material has the greater advantage in terms of the attribute. After reading the brief summary on each, assign a score out of a hundred to each attribute, giving those attributes that are most important to you higher scores, so that in the end the total score of your four attributes adds to 100. Then add up the score that you gave to the leather attributes and textile attributes, and the material with the highest score is your answer – and best of all it will be unique to your personal preferences.
Price - Textiles
Motorcycle textiles are cheaper to buy than leathers. It is also much harder to judge the quality of leathers and so you take the risk of paying a lot of money for a suit that does not have quality stitching and construction. (Just beware however that it is widely accepted that your textile suit will probably only survive one crash before you have to fork out for a new pair.)
Maintenance - Textiles
This one is simple – motorcycle textiles can be thrown in a commercial washer, while leathers will need to be sent to the cleaners.
Comfort - Textiles
Motorcycle textiles have an all weather capability: vents for when it is warm, liners for when it is cold and water resistance for rain. It breathes more easily than leather, and water slides off it like a ducks back.
Leather is also much heavier than textile.
Protection - Leather
Tests are conducted all the time to compare the abrasion resistance of motorcycle riding gear materials and leather always comes out on top as the most durable material. Furthermore, leather does not melt from friction, it will cushion your fall more than motorcycle textiles would and it offers the best protection against a road rash. The fact that leather also lasts through multiple crashes whilst textiles will probably only last through one, says a lot about the difference in protection and impact between the two materials.
The textiles vs leathers debate basically comes down to protection vs everything else.

[LittleRedNinjette]

Some people may not want to drop that much cash on "best of the best" gear when they're new because they dont know if they'll like riding or stick with it.

That was my boyfriend's perspective when he started riding.

Just playing devil's advocate here.

[Motofool]

Originally Posted by MrAtom

That was the idea. I thought basically all gear was typically good for just one crash? Like a helmet.

http://faq.ninja250.org/wiki/Protective_Gear

http://roadsafety.mccofnsw.org.au/a/11.html

http://roadsafety.mccofnsw.org.au/a/91.html

[choneofakind]

Originally Posted by LittleRedNinjette

So people may not want to drop that much cash on "best of the best" gear when they're new because they dont know if they'll like riding or stick with it.

That was my boyfriend's perspective when he started riding.

Just playing devil's advocate here.

Fair enough. I'm not saying to buy out the Schuberth and Dainese catelogs. I'm just saying don't buy utter junk. Bilt seems like junk. There's plenty of quality gear for fair prices. Chances are really good that you'll crash in your first six months/year.




Yes, all helmets are still intended for one crash. I'm talking about everything else. Jacket, pants, boots, gloves, armor.

[LittleRedNinjette]

I know, and most Bilt stuff is.

Just trying to put a different perspective on it.

[adouglas]

Originally Posted by MrAtom

I mean, those parkour guys who jump off of tall buildings and don't get hurt obviously have some level of ability to prevent injury to their body when faced with a lot of force.

The videos you see of parkour are the successful runs.

The human body, if it hits asphalt at speed, will suffer abrasions and impact injury. Skill has absolutely nothing to do with it.

For the standard rant on good gear, click the blog post link you see in my sig. It's got a nice, vivid little thought experiment for you to do.

Short version: Imagine jumping out of a car at 40 mph and falling to the ground. What do you want to be wearing?

[NevadaWolf]

Originally Posted by adouglas

For the standard rant on good gear, click the blog post link you see in my sig. It's got a nice, vivid little thought experiment for you to do.

Short version: Imagine jumping out of a car at 40 mph and falling to the ground. What do you want to be wearing?

I think your sigpic ate the link to the blog post. Yeah, I know its just to the left under your profile info, but I remember seeing it in your sig before.

[Mike K]

Originally Posted by MrAtom

Actually, there are two routes I can take to school. One has a speed limit of 45 mph, and the other is the highway, so 65.



Haha I know you were joking but I think your answer could possibly have some merit to it. I mean, those parkour guys who jump off of tall buildings and don't get hurt obviously have some level of ability to prevent injury to their body when faced with a lot of force.

Don't be lulled into a false sense of security travelling at a lower speed. I'm a runner (may not look it but I am) and I do most of my running at night. One night last spring I tripped transitioning from grass to pavement. I was running around a 7 1/12 mph pace when I went down. I cut my knee, my shoulder and both hands front and back. I didn't roll. I slid maybe a foot. The next day I bought good leather gloves and armored jacket to ride in.

Recently I bought a full leather one piece. Nobody around here wears them so I look silly. My wife (soon to be ex-wife) and kids (teenage girls) laugh at me and tell me I look ridiculous. I just smile. The wife should know better, the kids don't understand yet about safety.

About 5 years back they brought a guy into the trauma ICU where I worked (I rotated between the different ICU's back then). He went down on his bike and got de-gloved waist down. It's just what it sounds like. I didn't even go in the room and I'm not squeamish at all. Don't delude yourself into thinking that you don't need leather. You do.

I've been a vegetarian for 33 years on moral grounds. I wear leather on the bike. We make our own choices.

Get a car.

Mike

[Motofool]

Originally Posted by Mike K

Don't be lulled into a false sense of security travelling at a lower speed..........

Just to be precise, speed is key regarding the results of a motorcycle crash in public roads.

The reason is that the kinetic energy that has the potential to breaks bones and liquifies brains increases with the square of speed.

The track is more forgiving and good abrasion protection makes more sense than for the street, because speeds are high and the spaces for long slides are all around.

For street riders, the best leather may not be sufficient protection in most cases.
After quitting street riding, the second best approach is avoiding any type of accident at all cost.

Skin abrasion is seldom fatal, sudden decelerations frequently are.

[Mike K]

Agreed. My thoughts on how safe I am on the street are realistic. I know that if I have an unobstructed slide I might get away with anything from nothing more than some aches and pains to maybe some fractures. If I hit something hard or an immovable object or get run over then nothing, not even the thickest leather, will do much more than keep all my parts in one easy to pick up bag.

I'm an new rider. Bought my bike in the early spring so I only have around 2000 miles experience. I'm so far from expert it scares me sometimes so except for going fast on the highway sometimes, as in 80 to 90 mph, I ride well within my skills.

I have to believe that wearing the gear is way better than not wearing the gear.

[adouglas]

Originally Posted by Motofool

For street riders, the best leather may not be sufficient protection in most cases.
After quitting street riding, the second best approach is avoiding any type of accident at all cost.

Skin abrasion is seldom fatal, sudden decelerations frequently are.

IMHO this may send an unintended message. While the best leather may not be enough for a given crash, that doesn't mean it's inappropriate for the street.

Road rash may seldom be fatal, but the cost and consequences are not worth the risk IMHO. Do a bit of research on the cost of a skin graft. Then, if you've got a strong stomach, do a Google image search on "road rash."

There's one oft-circulated image of a very pretty young blonde with a big part of her back pretty much scrubbed off. The decision to look good instead of wearing gear changed her life, and not in a good way.

[Whiskey]

Originally Posted by Motofool

Just to be precise, speed is key regarding the results of a motorcycle crash in public roads.

The reason is that the kinetic energy that has the potential to breaks bones and liquifies brains increases with the square of speed.

The track is more forgiving and good abrasion protection makes more sense than for the street, because speeds are high and the spaces for long slides are all around.

For street riders, the best leather may not be sufficient protection in most cases.
After quitting street riding, the second best approach is avoiding any type of accident at all cost.

Skin abrasion is seldom fatal, sudden decelerations frequently are.

lose a big enough section on the road & you're looking at some serious infection, get something like MRSA in there and you're sunk. The way antibiotics are given out like sweets means they're not going to work much longer as a lot of bacteria are becoming resistant. Not the biggest problem if you're healthy, your immune system can deal with them petty well, but when you're dealing with a major injury too it becomes life threatening

[Mike K]

One of my friends did a trauma rotation in an ER in SoCal. He said he won't ride anymore because of it. He described having to clean out a large abrasion. Again, I won't go into details but he had to put the guy under general anesthesia to clean the wound properly.

This may seem like good or bad timing depending on your perspective but I just listed my Texport one-piece in the gear related classifieds. It's too big on me. It's a US 42 and I'm between a 38 and 40. This brings up a related conversation-- sizing. If the gear doesn't fit properly then you might not be as protected as you think you are. Properly sized gear puts the pads and armor where they were intended to be for maximum protection.

Mike

[backinthesaddleagain]

I have a pair of Bilt touring type boots. Have had them for about 4 years and replaced the soles once. I also have Bilt track type boots for the last 2 years. I put 27K miles on my CBR and so far 3K on my 636 wearing these boots. So far both pair of boots have worn well. I can't tell you how crash worthy they are. Obviously not up to the spec of A* or other brands and this is the only place I have skimped on my gear. Will replace them at some point with something better, but I still think they are better for riding than high top sneakers or work boots.

[fast1075]

Check out Motoport. They are the only company I know of that makes synthetic suits rated and accepted by the major race organizations.

A good friend from Cali wears one. He races Heavyweight Twins on an EBR 1190rs. He has crashed at "considerable" speed and swears by his suit. He also says it is much cooler than leather. Custom fit, made to order, but no more expensive that custom leathers.

[accumack]

If they are the same price as custom leathers I would go with custom leather every time.

[JohnnyBravo]

Bannana puppy FTW

[Milsparro]

Buy used if poor.

[LittleRedNinjette]

Originally Posted by Milsparro

Buy used if poor.

Eww...

[M42]

I got my astars two piece track suit for $300 "used". It was only worn like twice. Don't knock it, yo.

[LittleRedNinjette]

Still creeps me out.

If it truly was a "only worn once" type of thing, ok. Or jackets. I got a mesh jacket use and it was ok. (I did wash it though)

[dcj13]

Originally Posted by Milsparro

Buy used if poor.

Buy used if it's a good value!

I've never owned a new house, car, motorcycle, trailer, or boat. And I have no problem buying used clothing or equipment. Four pairs of my motorcycle boots were obtained used. Four of my motorcycle jackets were used when I got them. Got a pair of used gloves. Two of my helmets are used (ooh, scary!).

Why pay retail if you don't have to? I like getting good stuff for 20 to 50 cents on the dollar (or less). Washing clothes is easy. Heck, they even have machines that do it for you.

[JohnnyBravo]

All of my gear is used soon as I pull the tags off

[dcj13]

There's the old saying: "Get your motorcycles new, your cars used, and your women experienced."

[MrAtom]

Just to update everyone. I ended up buying the new icon overlord textile jacket in black. I have a surprisingly well fitting bilt helmet, some bilt gloves that, despite what everyone says, I trust well enough to do okay in a low-speed crash (no damage so far, and I pulled pretty hard on the seams and stuff. They're not falling apart from normal use anytime soon. They're fine). Oh, and some xelement textile pants courtesy of @ninjamunky85

Yeah. I know. Not leather. Chance of melting to skin. At least you guys'll get to see some cool pics of me in the crash section when that happens

And, in case anyone was wondering, I did it all without spending any of my FAFSA money on gear/motorcycle stuff. I decided to wait and save up for it the old fashioned way I take my MSF BRC on the 6th, and I've got insurance and everything covered. So stoked!

[JohnnyBravo]

Sweeeeet... I have some icon hooligan over pants... Great for riding, flow lots of air, protect me better than shorts

[LittleRedNinjette]

cool.

I have the Bilt jacket with the freeze out liner. so far its good, feels well constructed IMO. Only down is the armor blowes. I'll be swapping the armor from my other jacket for now. It keeps me warm in temps that have hit the mid 40s so far.