Cornering Rpms

[greenmachine]

Noob rider here, when I take a corner on my new gen bike I end up being forced into a decision. Mind you this a rather slow corner as I dont have the confidence/tires to do much more than 20-25 around a corner. Do I want to downshift and rev the bike up to 7k+ and take the corner screaming at low speed, or do I want to take the bike around the corner at smooth but jerky low rpms 3-6k?

Is everyones bike very like.... touchy at rmps below 6k? suchas 4100 rpms goes smooth while i hold it steady but when i hit 4200 it jerks the bike and jolts forward a bit and then 4300 or whatever goes back to flat and smooth. Maybe my carb needs cleaned? Also my bike has a slip on two brothers exhaust that maybe be causing the jerkyness because the bike has not been jetting. Perhaps thats the issue?

I could probably learn exactly what to do by reading that TOTW2 book over there im staring at still not reading... god i hate reading...

[alex.s]

11krpm. always.

[choneofakind]

1) 4000-4500 rpm is where the CDI ramps up the ignition angle. That's likely not helping your cause.

2) ...that said, you're a novice rider. Don't take this the wrong way, but you likely need to work on smooth throttle control, especially on corner entry. Heck, most riders who have been riding for years still need to work on their corner entry throttle. You should be able to have a fairly smooth throttle anywhere above 5k without too much finesse required. Alex mentioned 11k for corners. He's a racer and a natural on a bike, so his suggestion might not be valid for your question. Since you're just on a street taking a corner that slow, I'd take it in 2nd at 6k (or whatever rpm that is) and execute a nice smooth roll-on.

Typically around town, I'll make turns at 6-7k. That's a nice easy rpm that is pretty smooth. Moderate power to keep the bike stable in a roll-on without being up at 11k+. For back roads, I'll enter corners at 9k, where the bike is really smooth and has good response to throttle. At the track, I'll enter around 11k (or wherever it feels right. Typically it's screaming here) and smoothly apply a quick roll-on.

Noticing a trend in my post? It's all about smoothness on the throttle. Learn to make smooth roll-on's and you'll notice these little herky jerky moments will happen less frequently.

3) all that said, you might also want to look into raising your needle height a little via shimming them up with 1-2 washers. They're SAE#4 washers, and they're about 3mm ID, 6mm OD and about 0.5mm thick. There's plenty of info on that here, just search "shimming the carb needles" and you should be able to pull up a few threads on that. It really helps the mid-throttle range on these bikes by delivering a little more fuel. That helps a ton with smoothing things out as far as fuel delivery is concerned.

I mentioned the jetting last, because so many people are so quick to suggest hardware being at fault and modifications being NEEDED to correct them. From my experience, most times the fix needed is not with the hardware, it's with the sack of meat and bones sitting at the controls.

Hope this helps a bit, sorry for the essay. Welcome to the site Mitch! Glad you're asking for help

[csmith12]

Welcome greenmachine!

I am with choneofakind here but I will add... Got a buddy who knows about bikes? Let him/her take it for a spin. You can get a lot of troubleshooting done quickly like this.

[adouglas]

"Smooth but jerky" is a contradiction. Which is it, smooth or jerky?

As a new rider, it's FAR more likely that any jerkiness is coming from you, not the bike.

Common internet advice: Something is obviously wrong with the bike. Tear it apart. Rejet. Raise needles. Buy new stuff. Throw money at the problem.

Real-world rule of thumb: The bike is probably fine. Look at the rider first. Yeah, there may be something wrong with the bike… but eliminate the obvious source first.

Get the bike in the right gear before the corner, then once you crack the throttle open, roll it on smoothly and continuously through the turn. No on/off/hesitation. This is in TOTW 2. Sorry if you hate reading, but READ IT. Chapter 2. Page 7. It's right there.

Getting on and off the throttle produces the jerkiness you describe. Once you apply throttle, don't chop it.

You took the MSF course, right? Slow, look, press, roll….. the "roll" means the above.

To answer your original question, 7k is far from "screaming" on a Ninjette. It's the middle of the rev range.

The right answer is to do whatever is smoothest. Don't go chasing some arbitrary number….

[csmith12]

Originally Posted by greenmachine

I could probably learn exactly what to do by reading that TOTW2 book over there im staring at still not reading... god i hate reading...

Visual learner? The have it in movie form too! I advocate buying it (worth every penny) but a quick youtube search should get you some results.

EDIT: The plot sucks lol

[Solunatic]

I've owned three 250's over the same amount of years, and it seems each has its own quirky spot in the rev range where it wants to run essentially like ****. My current bike had it's flat spot at 6k so i tried to keep away from that until I shimmed the needle and now its less noticeable but could probably use a slightly larger shim. Previous bike was around 4.5k, before that 5.5k.

On the ninja, the smoothest part of the rev range for lower speed cornering i feel is 8k or above, but it depends on the corner, the environment, etc. It's a small, buzzy, parallel twin. it loves it when you rev the piss out of it. Don't try to ride it low in the rev range like a V-twin or it'll feel anemic and lifeless.


Although @alex.s is also correct: 11k, all the time.

[subxero]

Kind of related not to highjack or anything but...

When I ride I like to stay in the power of the rev range as most should. I am still working on my corner entry which I am finding to be the hardest thing to get consistently right. Once I am in the corner everything is gold the bike sets right in my body positions feels good and the my throttle control and roll on is non issue.

So back to corner entry, I feel my line is reasonable, my turn in point is somewhat hit or miss but not by much and never so bad it causes any kinds of issues but the thing I am just unsure about, primarily for long sharp radius turns is should I be low enough in the rev range ~ 9k at entry that I have some room in the revs as I roll on to get mostly through the corner before I have to shift or should I still be entering the corner closer to 10-11k which translates into me shifting mid turn.

So in short, on long tight radius turns is it better to come in a little low in the revs allowing you to shift further on the way out of corner, or just go in hot and shift part way through when you have to?

edit: I guess I should point out that my entry speed is not going to be that close to what the bike is capable of and potentially why I am unsure which way to go with this. I guess if I was riding ballz out I would enter in hot ~11k and ride that smooth till apex and once I saw day light out rip it open and shift as needed.

[Motofool]

Originally Posted by greenmachine

...........Do I want to downshift and rev the bike up to 7k+ and take the corner screaming at low speed.......?... god i hate reading...

Yes, but downshift before leaning the bike and entering the turn.

Between 7K and 10K the engine sings, screaming starts above 10K, ...........don't be shy of high rpms' because that is the nature of your engine.

If you are in first gear and must go really slow, dragging the rear brake will eliminate the jerkiness.

I would write more, but ............

[adouglas]

You will also find, should you choose to read TOTW 2, that you should consider getting all the busy stuff out of the way before you tip in. Reposition body if that's what you're going to do, slow, shift, make your steering input… all of it.

Ideally and all else being equal, you've set everything up for the corner by the time you actually start to turn, so that all you do through the turn is roll on the throttle.

There are of course exceptions….

I'm still working on getting it right. On the rare occasions when I nail it, it feels really, really good.

In fact, much of the enjoyment I get out of riding is executing corners perfectly. Speed doesn't matter much to me. I just love the feeling of carving that perfect line, with the bike doing exactly what it's supposed to and my decidedly modest skills coming to the fore.

[BRad704]

Originally Posted by csmith12

EDIT: The plot sucks lol

SHHHH!!!! Don't let Misti hear you.

[greenmachine]

Originally Posted by Motofool

Yes, but downshift before leaning the bike and entering the turn.

Between 7K and 10K the engine sings, screaming starts above 10K, ...........don't be shy of high rpms' because that is the nature of your engine.

If you are in first gear and must go really slow, dragging the rear brake will eliminate the jerkiness.

I would write more, but ............

Please do write more! very helpful tips and i need to learn everything I can.

I say the engine "screams" at 7k because i have a slip on two brothers and its LOUD AS HELL. I imagine i look ridiculous crawling around a corner going 15, bike screaming like a banshee lol

So basically it seems my jerkiness is coming from me being in 1st and chopping the throttle a bit thru the corner...

I get my battery for my gopro today hopefully if not tomorrow and I can go out and run some corners and keep an eye on my throttle control maybe ill learn something.

Thanks everyone for the replies ^^

and yes.... ill read the damn book this weekend...

[csmith12]

Oh dear, after you get moving shift to 2nd. 1st is for very, very low speed stuff or for taking off from a stop.

I can also feel pretty good about telling you that you can hold off a month or so before reading the book. 99% of it will be beyond your current skill set.

[greenmachine]

Originally Posted by csmith12

Oh dear, after you get moving shift to 2nd. 1st is for very, very low speed stuff or for taking off from a stop.

I can also feel pretty good about telling you that you can hold off a month or so before reading the book. 99% of it will be beyond your current skill set.

But i cant get to the 7k sweet spot of 2nd gear going around a corner goin 15-20mph I HAVE been using second and using low RPMs but people are now telling me otherwise

[subxero]

^

Second gear still has enough low end grunt to push you through the turn at a low speed but still give you enough torque to accelerate out in the lower RPMS.

But yeah first gear is used for super slow stuff, like navigating in tight quarters, you should be able to stay in second gear or higher for just about every corner that is not done from a complete stop or close to it.

[csmith12]

hmmm...

Lemme clue you in on the real deal. Sure the 250's sweet spot is around 8k give or take. But ultimately, it boils down to two things; Are you happy? Is the bike happy? As your skills grow, you may shoot for rpm goals to get the most power out of the bike but as your just learning. Do what makes you feel good and have confidence on the bike. Even if that means putting around the corner in 2nd gear, going 20mph @5500 rpms.

The bike will be happy with this
The rider should happier with this

[ally99]

Originally Posted by BRad704

SHHHH!!!! Don't let Misti hear you.

Hehe! Great content, but very cheesy acting and plot. I agree.

Originally Posted by greenmachine

So basically it seems my jerkiness is coming from me being in 1st and chopping the throttle a bit thru the corner...
.

I have ridden tens of thousands of varying types of corners and never have I taken one in 1st gear. Be in 2nd gear at least before you enter the corner. Everyone has said it already. It never makes your bike happy to chop the throttle in a corner. You want to keep your bike happy. Never is there a benefit to doing so. The benefit is in rolling on the throttle throughout the curve...even if you entered the corner too hot, keeping steady, relaxed maintenance throttle is best. Never chop. Before TOTW2, Proficient Motorcycling may benefit you more based on your current skill level. It starts more basic but gives lots of great riding strategies to keep you having fun and alive. Good luck! Take the MSF course if you haven't.

[choneofakind]

As you learn, enjoy those corners that you absolutely win. I know it sounds cheesy and all, but there's still certain turns that I know I can rail on, so I rail on them, and everything just slows down and I relax and enjoy the sensation of flying through a curve.

First I'm all
Then I'm all

[CycleCam303]

Good on everyone for providing useful information. I'd add more but it doesn't seem necessary.

[Dredgshadow]

As a new rider myself, I have noticed a lot of things that I thought were possible problems with my bike that were in fact just problems with me. It's not like a car, your input is part of the entire system on a much larger scale. Have fun, stay LOOSE, and see if your problems subside.

[Motofool]

Originally Posted by choneofakind

.........there's still certain turns that I know I can rail on, so I rail on them.........

What rail on a turn means?

[choneofakind]

It means I know the turn well, I like the line, I have good reference points that work, and I can enter the turn at that sweet spot at 10k and open it up before apex.

so rail on = have lots of fun.

[JohnnyBravo]

Seems I learn some new or made up word or phrase everyday

[greenmachine]

So after cruising around attempting to win the picture game all day... Ive noticed that my jerky problem isnt happening if i really focus on keeping my roll on flawless, you're right it was definitely me (I still think the bike acts funny at less than 6 grand though).

On another note, I got a tip that I wasnt keeping my head up during my corners, I was staring at the ground where i want my line to be and apparently thats wrong and I need to be looking UP and where i want to go. I've been doing that all day and my corners feel A LOT nicer/smoother and I have more confidence with my head up for whatever reason.

Thanks a ton for all the awesome responses guys!

[csmith12]

[Motofool]

Originally Posted by greenmachine

..........I was staring at the ground where i want my line to be and apparently thats wrong and I need to be looking UP and where i want to go. I've been doing that all day and my corners feel A LOT nicer/smoother and I have more confidence with my head up for whatever reason.

The reason is that now you see things moving slower and that gives you a sense of more space ahead of you.
Also, your attention is away from the bike (yes, it is good to leave her do what motorcycles do best without our interference: turn smoothly) and instead you are leading the way (active riding), rather than being pushed by the speed of the bike to react nervously (reactive riding).

For the next practice session, try entering the turns slowly and, as soon as is safe, gently but constantly accelerating during the turn (gaining ~3 mph per each second in the turn is the proper rate).
The trick is entering slowly enough as not to end up running wide at the end.

Forget about the rpms or about how you look or sound to third persons: this is only between your bike and you.

[Motofool]

Originally Posted by greenmachine

.........Ive noticed that my jerky problem isnt happening if i really focus on keeping my roll on flawless........

Another thing to consider in your turning practices: the timing of control inputs.

Link to original page on YouTube.

[JohnnyBravo]

Glad your riding is getting sorted out... I'm ready for the bike in the bedroom shot to be done with, ain't no way I can get my bike in my bedroom

[greenmachine]

Originally Posted by JohnnyBravo

Glad your riding is getting sorted out... I'm ready for the bike in the bedroom shot to be done with, ain't no way I can get my bike in my bedroom

I know right? Some dude said he should have it done tonight though, I almost considered taking my mountain bike up into my room for the shot and saying "you only said your BIKE in your room". lol

[greenmachine]

Originally Posted by Motofool

Another thing to consider in your turning practices: the timing of control inputs.

Link to original page on YouTube.

Thanks! this is really useful because I actually just started noticing how sloppy my transition is from engine braking/braking to cracking open the gas when approaching a corner.

[greenmachine]

Is it a bad idea to, when about to enter a corner, pull in your clutch, brake smooth, lean, and then slowly release the clutch through the friction zone as you accelerate through the corner? It seems like that'd be a lot smoother than coasting with no throttle before the turn, then cracking it open as you go through. Although I suppose its effectively the same thing if your throttle control is good enough...

[choneofakind]

^^ never enter with the clutch pulled.

Think about how herky jerky it can be when you go from coasting with clutch to fully engaged clutch. It's much smoother with the throttle vs the clutch.

[Whiskey]

Originally Posted by greenmachine

Noob rider here

...

I could probably learn exactly what to do by reading that TOTW2 book over there im staring at still not reading... god I'm too lazy to read or search on Youtube...

Fixed that for ya

Link to original page on YouTube.

[ally99]

Originally Posted by choneofakind

^^ never enter with the clutch pulled.

Think about how herky jerky it can be when you go from coasting with clutch to fully engaged clutch. It's much smoother with the throttle vs the clutch.

The ONLY time to use the clutch is if you're upshifting or downshifting...ok, some folks modulate it for slow-speed maneuvers such as U-turns. It's not what the bike needs entering a corner and it's putting tons of excessive wear on your clutch plates. You brake and immediately roll on steadily throughout the corner. No clutch unless you downshift prior or upshift leaving the corner.

[Motofool]

Originally Posted by greenmachine

Thanks! this is really useful because I actually just started noticing how sloppy my transition is from engine braking/braking to cracking open the gas when approaching a corner.

Is it a bad idea to, when about to enter a corner, pull in your clutch, brake smooth, lean, and then slowly release the clutch through the friction zone as you accelerate through the corner? It seems like that'd be a lot smoother than coasting with no throttle before the turn, then cracking it open as you go through. Although I suppose its effectively the same thing if your throttle control is good enough...

You are welcome

I have done that many times, specially in slippery conditions.
However, try avoiding developing that habit, it will use too much of your attention while returning little benefit.
You should work only on developing good basic habits for a while; it is very hard to unlearn something.

Don't agonize too much about these details.
Focus on inputting very gradual changes (applying and releasing) to the two most powerful controls: throttle and front brake.
Your bike may get mad at you due to sudden changes in pitch, be smooth enough to keep it level pitch-wise.
Throttle and brakes can overlap each other some, that is OK, but try doing all the braking before the leaning is initiated.

If after some practice, you note that there is a pronounced slack or dead zone in the transition, your hardware may need some adjustment (throttle cables' slack, rear wheel cushion and brake components).
Read my signature.

[adouglas]

Transitions are what upsets the bike. Letting the clutch out while cornering is a transition.

Get it all done first. As above, ideally the ONLY THING you do after you tip in is roll the throttle on.

It's important to understand what "cracking the throttle open" means. greenmachine, from the wording of your post it's possible you're thinking that it means positive and significant application of power.

Not so. Cracking open means just that… the barest move off of idle. Like when you open a door… when you say it's "cracked open" there's just a tiny gap.

And continuous application throughout the corner doesn't mean you exit at WOT or anything close to it. It might mean going from just-above-zero (cracked open) to only 1/4 throttle… the point is to ACCELERATE GENTLY through the turn. It's not about how much throttle you give it, it's about what the throttle does to the bike.

Look in the book. Chapter 2, page 7… it's in there. Look at the contact patch picture.