First motorcycle, first manual tranny

[IF13]

Yep, I'm going to ask and yes, I did use the search function but I'd greatly prefer something more personally tailored.

So here's how I downshift:

From high way speed 65-80, 5th gear, both brakes, at 30 hold clutch in, down shift as I slow down, bit of throttle each gear <- I feel as if that's incorrect.

From local speed 30-45, 5th gear, both brakes in, at near stop clutch in, down shift as I slowly let off the throttle <- I feel as if this is also incorrect.

What should I be doing?

edit: Oh and in corners, brake in to appropriate speed, clutch, downshift to appropriate gear, let go of clutch (feathered if I'm coming to a near stop before cornering) <- Probably incorrect too.

[dfox]

For downshifting, it's generally a good idea to continually downshift as you slowly come to a stop. This way, if you need to accelerate again you're in the right gear. It doesn't really matter your speed, you should be continually running through the gears. "Blipping" the throttle, or giving a slight twist to rev the engine while the clutch is in, helps to make the transition to the lower gear smoother, to help keep rear traction and avoid upsetting the suspension.

Since you're new to motorcycles and new to manuals in general, it's not too easy to focus on proper braking technique while also blipping the throttle at each downshift. After a while it becomes second nature and it just happens, but at first, it's very hard to maintain even pressure on the front brake lever while blipping the throttle.

I trained myself to be comfortable blipping the throttle while braking by only doing it in low consequence situations. Back roads, without cars in front or cars behind, knowing that I had plenty of room to brake if I wasn't applying enough pressure to the lever. In higher consequence situations, while braking, I held in the clutch while breaking, and slowly downshifted so that if I did need to quickly accelerate, it was only a matter of letting the clutch out and going.

Hope this helps.

[csmith12]

Originally Posted by dfox

For downshifting, it's generally a good idea to continually downshift as you slowly come to a stop. This way, if you need to accelerate again you're in the right gear. It doesn't really matter your speed, you should be continually running through the gears. "Blipping" the throttle, or giving a slight twist to rev the engine while in neutral, helps to make the transition to the lower gear smoother, to help keep rear traction and avoid upsetting the suspension.

Thanks for your answer Fox but that was kinda hard to understand for me, much less a new rider that is also new to a manual shift.

Can you try to explain again? The way it currently reads, it would seem there is a neutral between the gears and continually downshift isn't really so "continually". Feel me?

[dfox]

Originally Posted by csmith12

Thanks for your answer Fox but that was kinda hard to understand for me, much less a new rider that is also new to a manual shift.

Can you try to explain again? The way it currently reads, it would seem there is a neutral between the gears and continually downshift isn't really so "continually". Feel me?

understood... not "neutral", but clutch-in.

[IF13]

So blip the throttle as I'm downshifting continuously with the clutch in.

Does that mean it's okay to hold the clutch lever in as I slow down or should I be releasing it each gear down?

[beazy411]

Originally Posted by IF13

So blip the throttle as I'm downshifting continuously with the clutch in.

Does that mean it's okay to hold the clutch lever in as I slow down or should I be releasing it each gear down?

If you can, release it in each gear. That is ideal so if you need to accelerate, you are already in gear. If you haven't already, I would highly suggest taking the MSF Basic Rider course. It is designed to take someone like you that has nevder riden or driven a manual transmission car and get them comfortable with how to operate the bike.

Below is the link straight to the find a course page. Some Harley-Davidson dealerships have a similar program.

http://nm.msf-usa.org/msf/ridercours...rCourse%20Info

[dfox]

Originally Posted by IF13

So blip the throttle as I'm downshifting continuously with the clutch in.

Does that mean it's okay to hold the clutch lever in as I slow down or should I be releasing it each gear down?

If you're not engaging the clutch as you downshift, there's no need to blip.

you should start working towards getting comfortable engaging the clutch at each gear as you downshift. It's not necessary all the time, but the more often you do it, the more comfortable you will be. At a minimum, you should be going down through the gears at the appropriate rate so that you can engage and accelerate instantly if necessary. You don't want to be stuck trying to find the right gear if you need to accelerate because a light turned green, etc.

[csmith12]

Originally Posted by beazy411

If you can, release it in each gear. That is ideal so if you need to accelerate, you are already in gear. If you haven't already, I would highly suggest taking the MSF Basic Rider course. It is designed to take someone like you that has nevder riden or driven a manual transmission car and get them comfortable with how to operate the bike.

Below is the link straight to the find a course page. Some Harley-Davidson dealerships have a similar program.

http://nm.msf-usa.org/msf/ridercours...rCourse%20Info

While the MSF does well for first timers using clutches. For me at least, we mainly only used 1st and 2nd gear in the course. Timing the shifts from 6th to 1st was not realistically covered during the course.

Sure it's a great course for all new and maybe even experienced riders as a refresher, sadly, I am not sure it will directly address the question at hand.

[beazy411]

Only time and experience will address the issue, but the MSF course down here went up to 3rd. This just highlights one of the many deficiancies of American motorcycle instruction. Maybe a little time in a manual transmission car would help but finding one that someone will let you abuse the clutch a bit is kinda hard.

[csmith12]

Let me give this a shot….

Ken, what the others are trying to explain is called rev matching, it’s actually easier than it sounds. But for where you are at in your riding you don’t really have to worry about all the blipping stuff yet, let that come later. Since you know about feathering in the friction zone from your OP, I am also going to assume you know how to shift gears already and just need to fine tune the timing of shifts and inputs.

Let me start with a couple of questions:
How do you think the bike will feel and react if you dropped the clutch at 65mph in 1st gear?
How would the bike feel if you were decelerating from 6th gear/65mph and blend in with traffic going 35mph without shifting gears and you tried to get back to the gas?
Assuming your in 5th gear, how do you know how many clicks to shift down to 30mph?

So basically, you need to build up the skill of feeling what the bike needs at any given time. With most riders (even novice ones), they know the sound of a screaming engine or a lugging engine. These urges the riders feel alert them to shift a gear or pull in the clutch. Basically if your engine is screaming at 12rpm, you need to upshift vs. if the engine is lugging to accelerate at 2500rpm you need to downshift. Time and practice is about the only way here. So how this applies to downshifting….

As the bike decelerates from pace, you should be in a gear that put the bike in its happy place, which is around 6k-8k rpms on the lil ninja. This allows you to get back to the gas asap when needed, keeps the tires from skipping around and generally just feels good and smooth.

You do this simply by;
rolling off the throttle
easing on brakes
pull the clutch in
downshift
ease out the clutch
progressively apply more brake as needed
Rinse and repeat to keep yourself in control until your desired speed (then add throttle to hold speed/accelerate) or come to a full stop.

Also, bear in mind that most riders will not ease out the clutch for 1st gear like they did for other gears when coming to a stop, it’s just too short and jerky. Overall, it does not matter if it’s 35mph or 85mph the process is the same. Find you a really large clear parking lot (big enough to shift to at least 4th or higher) to work on it a bit.

What to look for: The most common errors here are;
downshifting to early and over revving the engine, skipping the back tire or creating general instability of the bike (I am guilty of this sin while track riding )
just holding in the clutch and skipping gears while downshifting. Ie going from 5th to 1st without letting out the clutch

How do you think the bike will feel and react if you dropped the clutch at 65mph in 1st gear again?

Once you master just casual clutching/shifting, you can move to the more advanced skill of blipping/downshifting which can further smooth things out.

Good luck and let us know how it goes. Props for asking questions too.

[dfox]

My personal opinion.... I don't know that I'd downshift much without at least trying to rev-match by blipping the throttle. When just learning what gear is appropriate for what speed (perception, not actually reading the speedo), it's quite easy to choose a gear that's too steep for your speed and provide a ton of engine breaking. You risk losing traction in the rear if you do this too hard, while already using the rear brake, or in the middle of a turn. No slipper clutch = little room for error. I think learning to blip your downshifts is the first step.

This is the way I did it, and imo, it worked well. I picked it up pretty quick. The hardest part is coordinating your right hand to run the break and the throttle at one time. In a car, this process is beyond simple due to different feet doing different tasks.

[csmith12]

One more thing.... I DO advocate taking the MSF if you have not. It's not perfect but serves it purpose well.

[csmith12]

Originally Posted by dfox

My personal opinion.... I don't know that I'd downshift much without at least trying to rev-match by blipping the throttle.

Did you REALLY start out that way or grow into it?

Originally Posted by dfox

When just learning what gear is appropriate for what speed (perception, not actually reading the speedo), it's quite easy to choose a gear that's too steep for your speed and provide a ton of engine breaking. You risk losing traction in the rear if you do this too hard, while already using the rear brake, or in the middle of a turn. No slipper clutch = little room for error. I think learning to blip your downshifts is the first step.

For n00bs their clutch lever is the slipper, hence "ease out" the clutch. A rider has the option of pulling it back in. If n00bie blips, the clutch is in and out so fast, they have to react to a skidding tire vs. too much engine braking in the friction zone.

To each their own though, your free to learn skills in any order.

[IF13]

Originally Posted by beazy411

If you can, release it in each gear. That is ideal so if you need to accelerate, you are already in gear. If you haven't already, I would highly suggest taking the MSF Basic Rider course. It is designed to take someone like you that has nevder riden or driven a manual transmission car and get them comfortable with how to operate the bike.

Below is the link straight to the find a course page. Some Harley-Davidson dealerships have a similar program.

http://nm.msf-usa.org/msf/ridercours...rCourse%20Info

I took the MSF course and that's literally how they taught it because we were going at max probably 20 mph. Brake in, clutch in, change gear. Probably the highest gear we were in was third gear. Maybe I should take the second BRC?

[dfox]

Originally Posted by csmith12

Did you REALLY start out that way or grow into it?



For n00bs their clutch lever is the slipper, hence "ease out" the clutch. A rider has the option of pulling it back in. If n00bie blips, the clutch is in and out so fast, they have to react to a skidding tire vs. too much engine braking in the friction zone.

To each their own though, your free to learn skills in any order.

definitely did learn it that way, although I have been driving stick for years, so learning the throttle blip took all of about 5 mins, then I added in the brake while blipping (equivalent to heel-toe shifting in a car), which took a bit longer. When I attempted to downshift without blipping, you're slipping the clutch for so long to prevent upsetting the suspension if you're actually selecting the correct gear for engine braking.

I also am not suggesting to dump the clutch. In downshifting, the clutch should always be feathered. blipping the throttle just reduces the time that the clutch is actually slipping.

like you said, to each their own. We both offer different perspectives, the op can make their own educated decision on the road.

[csmith12]

The ERC is about the same as the BRC with a few different drills but on your own bike. I personally think your education dollar is better spent somewhere else.

[IF13]

Originally Posted by csmith12

Let me give this a shot….

Ken, what the others are trying to explain is called rev matching, it’s actually easier than it sounds. But for where you are at in your riding you don’t really have to worry about all the blipping stuff yet, let that come later. Since you know about feathering in the friction zone from your OP, I am also going to assume you know how to shift gears already and just need to fine tune the timing of shifts and inputs.

Let me start with a couple of questions:
How do you think the bike will feel and react if you dropped the clutch at 65mph in 1st gear?
How would the bike feel if you were decelerating from 6th gear/65mph and blend in with traffic going 35mph without shifting gears and you tried to get back to the gas?
Assuming your in 5th gear, how do you know how many clicks to shift down to 30mph?

So basically, you need to build up the skill of feeling what the bike needs at any given time. With most riders (even novice ones), they know the sound of a screaming engine or a lugging engine. These urges the riders feel alert them to shift a gear or pull in the clutch. Basically if your engine is screaming at 12rpm, you need to upshift vs. if the engine is lugging to accelerate at 2500rpm you need to downshift. Time and practice is about the only way here. So how this applies to downshifting….

As the bike decelerates from pace, you should be in a gear that put the bike in its happy place, which is around 6k-8k rpms on the lil ninja. This allows you to get back to the gas asap when needed, keeps the tires from skipping around and generally just feels good and smooth.

You do this simply by;
rolling off the throttle
easing on brakes
pull the clutch in
downshift
ease out the clutch
progressively apply more brake as needed
Rinse and repeat to keep yourself in control until your desired speed (then add throttle to hold speed/accelerate) or come to a full stop.

Also, bear in mind that most riders will not ease out the clutch for 1st gear like they did for other gears when coming to a stop, it’s just too short and jerky. Overall, it does not matter if it’s 35mph or 85mph the process is the same. Find you a really large clear parking lot (big enough to shift to at least 4th or higher) to work on it a bit.

What to look for: The most common errors here are;
downshifting to early and over revving the engine, skipping the back tire or creating general instability of the bike (I am guilty of this sin while track riding )
just holding in the clutch and skipping gears while downshifting. Ie going from 5th to 1st without letting out the clutch

How do you think the bike will feel and react if you dropped the clutch at 65mph in 1st gear again?

Once you master just casual clutching/shifting, you can move to the more advanced skill of blipping/downshifting which can further smooth things out.

Good luck and let us know how it goes. Props for asking questions too.

Oh man, this is a toughy. But I get what you're saying. I'm actually getting more used to the tune of the engine and finding the right gear. Thank you for posting all this though. It puts me at ease a bit.

Okay what about this situation where I'm coming from the high way into an exit ramp/ twist: 6th gear, 65mph, slow down, clutch in, rev, shift down to 5th, release clutch, rev/ throttle.

[RJprod]

Also, Invest in some books like total control and such. I think there is a section on shifting followed by exercises. You'll find tons of youtube videos on downshifting as well..

despite all this, you will still get it wrong from time to time. the only difference is that you'll know when you didn't do it smoothly enough. with experience it'll become almost second nature.

[csmith12]

Originally Posted by IF13

Okay what about this situation where I'm coming from the high way into an exit ramp/ twist: 6th gear, 65mph, slow down, clutch in, rev, shift down to 5th, release clutch, rev/ throttle.

Not quite sure about what your asking here? What is making your feel uneasy about this scenario?

An exit ramp is no different than any other given curve on the road. Brake and downshift as you normally would to get to a comfortable speed, turn and begin throttle roll. The biggest issue here is cages AND riders not using the "deceleration" area of the exit. Many start to slow down way before even moving into the decel area of the ramp. That's real world traffic for ya though....

Can you help me understand what I am missing?

[Joshorilla]

I remember the first time I rode a manual tranny, it was in thailand.

Thank you! Thank you! I'll be here all week.