Moving Up to Bigger Bikes

[eulark]

The other day I took a spin on my friends 600. Low speed around the driveway (Long 1/8 mile driveway) and noticed that the bike is completely different from the 250. Duh. What I didnt expect is the way weight distribution affects the ride. While the 250 feels so well grounded, the 600 feels like its trying to stand on its toes. Low speed balance was completely different.

Is this what everyone experiences once you move up from the 250? It's hard to imagine having the same confidence in a turn with a bigger bike like that.

[sharky nrk]

Originally Posted by eulark

The other day I took a spin on my friends 600. Low speed around the driveway (Long 1/8 mile driveway) and noticed that the bike is completely different from the 250. Duh. What I didnt expect is the way weight distribution affects the ride. While the 250 feels so well grounded, the 600 feels like its trying to stand on its toes. Low speed balance was completely different.

Is this what everyone experiences once you move up from the 250? It's hard to imagine having the same confidence in a turn with a bigger bike like that.

Honestly my 6R (and most SS/SBK) feels much much better when ridden at speed. The riding position, weight distribution, and geometry all make the bikes kinda awkward at low speed but all is set right when your moving a bit. I really do prefer the 250 for tooling around on though. Simply a much more agreeable place to be if your not riding with some aggression.

[Racer x]

It's handling is different and much different at high speed. Low speed stability, light weight easy riding ,great milage ,cheap insurance. That is what you trade off to go 100 mph in first gear.

[eulark]

I feel like its the tradeoff to not feel like its a battle to go down the interstate.

I've been toying with the idea of getting a 6 or 7r for my next bike. I guess I'll just need to take his bike out on the road to really get a feel for it.

[adouglas]

The biggest difference is handling at very low speeds. It's a lot easier on the 250, because of the higher bars and what feels like a tighter turning radius.

Question for you:

Are you trying to assume your familiar upright 250 riding position on the 600? I'll bet all the cash (or other negotiable instruments) in my pocket that you are.

Supersports are designed around an aggressive riding position, leaned far forward. They feel really good when you ride them like that, but are painful and awkward if you insist on trying to sit upright at all times.

I often see this... people, usually squids, riding supersports around with elbows locked. The only time I'm sitting up with my arms straight is when I'm at a stoplight.

Try again and pay attention to keeping your forearms parallel to the ground. Also pay attention to not weighting your hands. Lie on the tank if necessary. Bet it'll feel a lot different... and a lot better.

[cbinker]

low speed handling <20mph really suck on an SS compared to a 250. At those speeds the throttle actually feels like an on/off switch.

[adouglas]

Fueling really depends on the bike. My GSXR is delightful even at low speeds.

You really can't be hamfisted with the throttle, though. It rewards smoothness and a light touch.

If people have ever referred to you as a "blunt instrument" or a "force of nature" you might have a bit of trouble...

[eulark]

Originally Posted by adouglas

...

Question for you:

Are you trying to assume your familiar upright 250 riding position on the 600? I'll bet all the cash (or other negotiable instruments) in my pocket that you are.

Supersports are designed around an aggressive riding position, leaned far forward. They feel really good when you ride them like that, but are painful and awkward if you insist on trying to sit upright at all times.
....
Try again and pay attention to keeping your forearms parallel to the ground. Also pay attention to not weighting your hands. Lie on the tank if necessary. Bet it'll feel a lot different... and a lot better.

Honestly, since it was a slow ride on a semi smooth dirt driveway, I was pretty high up there. as soon as he gets the registration figured out, I'll give it a true shot. Of course half my problem is having a 28" inseam.

I appreciate the advice. It's exactly what I need to know.

[eulark]

Hah, nope, not a force of nature.

That was the other thing I noticed, the way the motor reacts and the overall feel of the bike was so much smoother and refined? My 250 with a muzzy and dirty carbs feels like a squirrel on caffeine.

[csmith12]

Your feelings normal Cody but it's nothing that most riders can't overcome with a bit of practice.

Which 600 was it? Most don't go 100 in first (Eric was just kidding), but it sure feels like it sometimes.

[eulark]

I think it was a 99 ninja 600? I can't recall off the top of my head. It wasnt a newer one, nor is it a 636. He picked it up for 2500 with 2200 miles on it. -_-

I'd just be happy with getting to 70 in second and not wonder if the motor will blow first haha.

I get the feeling once I actually hit the road, it will all become clear.

[csmith12]

Originally Posted by eulark

squirrel on caffeine.

[eulark]

dye it's fur blue and that's my bike.

[Hero Danny]

I know the Cbr600rr is supposed to be more street friendly of the sport bikes (hence cbr= city bike racer).

With it weighing 410 wet (2008) it's only about 25lbs heavier than a 300. And there are weight reduction mods to get it even closer to that 400 mark. Also the clip ons are above the triple tree. Etc, I wonder if it would handle in smaller movements like the 250/300 would? Obviously not as well, but be sort of a compromise instead of something like a zx6 or r6

[Byakkotai]

Riding position takes some getting use to but it makes the seating position of my 300 feel more like a feather-light cruiser afterwards

I felt that the 600RR was slightly top heavy at standstill. So for me, it felt heavier than the other two SS bikes I've tested: '13+ 636 and '13+ D675. But it's a good bike.

[EsrTek]

Originally Posted by adouglas

If people have ever referred to you as a "blunt instrument" or a "force of nature" you might have a bit of trouble...

I think it was @scorch that called me Lead Wrist on the '12 rally..
I said 'what' and he was like your either on full throttle or off throttle completely, there is no inbetween

Thankfully that was my first month of riding and I have since really practiced that (although not mastered )

[Finesse]

When I started riding and got my 250, I went to the dealership to get brake fluid or something and ended up sitting on some 2013 bikes like ZX6R and ZX14 and R6 and whatnot. I was too afraid to stand them upright off the side stand. and I remember clearly saying 'I will NEVER ride one of these!!' and thinking it was totally beyond me.

Then I got a job at a motorcycle shop after having had my 650 for only 2 weeks... now I'm keeping a list and I've ridden 39 motorcycles. Today I added the 2014 CBR1000RR to my list. I've ridden the ZX14 I said I neither would nor could ever ride. And I am 5'4 and 100lb. After riding so many bikes and continuing to ride new ones weekly it's getting a lot easier to feel comfortable on different things.

The point is.. the more bikes you ride the more you get a feel for how to maneuver different styles of bikes. The weight distribution, handlebar height, seat height, seat width, tank height/width, rearset position.... there are so many things that affect how a bike handles. Rake, trail, wheelbase, suspension. They are all a little bit different. The bigger bikes are harder to maneuver smoothly in small spaces but the bike will certainly turn as far as its handlebars will allow it. I've seen great U-turns on Harleys! I think a lot of people (myself DEFINITELY included) get stiff and defensive when we ride bigger bikes because we are told 'be careful, it's fast.' The more you loosen up, relax, and trust your CLUTCH, breathe and turn your head to look where you want to go, the easier riding a bigger/more bulky bike will become. My 650 feels just as easy to ride in small spaces as my 250 was. As far as turning radius, that's mostly controlled by how far the bars can turn. On some bikes, it's not far. and some are better balanced than others and have a shorter wheelbase. but I think you get used to what you ride most and if you are used to the little nimble 250 everything else will feel like riding a whale! if you decide to get a bigger bike it will also take some getting used to, but you will adjust.

[Rifleman]

Finesse really shed light on the subject... hopefully I can add to it as well.

The ride feel and charistics are a function of the frame geometry, the weight, the bar location, the bar length, rake (angle of the forks) Trail (distance the axle is behind the plane of the pivot point of the steering column), weight distribution, center of gravity, tire size, tire diameter...

ok don't want to go all nutso but you can see there are literally 100s of variables that change how a bike feels and rolls under you. Engine displacement is only one of those variables... and is not the most important one.

so we group the bikes into categories that lump together bikes that are set up to "cruise" or to "alpine/tour" or to track/race/super sport/hyper sport... and you even get some that try and dance a line between say sport bike and tour bike (FJ-1200, ZX-14r, Busa)

So what changes a bikes "feel". Bars, foot peg location, and seat location are the 3 biggest factors.

The tighter in the bars (short and over the forks) the farther back and higher the foot pegs from the bars, and the higher and farther back the seat is... increases the "sport" feel, the attack crotch rocket, feel. It's amazing what just a inch or so lower pegs, lower seat or longer bars will change the feel and handling of the same bike.

The 250 is really a tour bike with a little "sport" thrown in. The Gen 3 perhaps is taking on the true "sport" set up... but the Gen 1 and 2 have high and wide bars, short distance between the seat and the bars, and low pegs. You sit upright.

your friends 600 moves your knees up, your butt back, your shoulders forward, you are leaned over.

Finesses SV sits you up straighter, my TL has you laying right on the tank almost, the bars are at nearly the same level as your butt.

Rake and Trail can be felt as "stability" Tighter rake makes the bike want to fall over faster (with less steering input) or more "unstable". This is a good thing for the full on cafe' racer as you want to rifle full throttle down the straight for as long as possible, all in on the brakes at the last possible second, then push her down hard to the bead. Totally the wrong way to go on a Aspencade where you want smooth, gentle, easy steering inputs and a stable forgiving platform.

So yes, all bikes will have a different feel to them... bigger (because the 250 is at the "smaller" end of engine displacement) will feel different, but not just because it's bigger...

hope that helps... now back to thinking about Finesse on a ZX-14R.... yeaaaaaahhh.

[Finesse]

^ should have got a pic... actually that 14 is back at my shop. I really should spin it around the parking lot and get someone to prove it for me!

Also I might add that your own body proportions change how a bike feels to you vs to someone else. I feel like the KING OF THE UNIVERSE on a KLR650 but to a 6'2 guy, it might feel comfortable and normal. (oops, queen? whatever) and for me to ride a cbr1000rr is probably more comfortable than for that 6'2 guy to ride it, cause he'll feel more cramped and curled up.

[Redgeneral]

Originally Posted by Finesse

^ should have got a pic... actually that 14 is back at my shop. I really should spin it around the parking lot and get someone to prove it for me!

Also I might add that your own body proportions change how a bike feels to you vs to someone else. I feel like the KING OF THE UNIVERSE on a KLR650 but to a 6'2 guy, it might feel comfortable and normal. (oops, queen? whatever) and for me to ride a cbr1000rr is probably more comfortable than for that 6'2 guy to ride it, cause he'll feel more cramped and curled up.

You definitely hit the nail on the for proportions. I haven't sat on a GSXR, but out of the other big three, I found the CBR600rr to be the least comfortable on the street, the R6 to be in the middle and the ZX6r to be the most comfortable.

Also I'm 6' tall 32" inseam and I can tip toe my KLR 650.