A discussion on 1st Track Days

[#maverick#]

Hey guys whats up!

I am looking into doing my first track day, i have about 1000 road miles on my ninja 250 and I've always wanted to do track day. But i'm a little nervous as i've never done this before. Ive looked up instructions on how to prep the bike and have done all this.

So what skills should i practice before my track day, whats the bare minimum i should have gear wise. Any tips/tricks from the veterans!


Thanks!!

[AlanDog]

Ben,

I will give you my opinion and I'm sure others will disagree but... I'd get a bit more riding under your belt before doing a trackday. Six months of street riding or maybe 5000 miles. Everyone is different, I mean doing a trackday with less experience would be okay, but I think you'd get maximum fun/benefit with a little more.

I think a big question is how much twisty road experience you have. You may be brave, you may be exceptional, and so might catch right on, even bicycling experience helps.

I just say this because at least for me, my first few months I had to think about shifting and braking and balancing and traffic and that was a challenge enough. If you now feel totally comfortable with the basics, then the next step would be to comfortable taking a turn fast. Because on your first run you will get a new definition of 'fast'! It was overwhelming the first few times out, and my poll of first-timers at lunch, everyone pretty much agreed it was overwhelming (but a blast!) But it was only fun after those first sessions, when I could relax and enjoy it. I think I had been riding over a year, and had done a whole season of all-day rides almost every weekend on twisty roads. But I am a conservative person, I would have not been brave enough to get on a track with only 1000 miles of experience.

When I did my first trackday (btw I have only done 3 so still a newb!) there were a couple guys who clearly had no experience taking turns fast. They were basically going street speed, like a turn that could have been signed for 25 mph they were taking at 25 mph (say as opposed to the C group in general where maybe people were taking it at 40-65 mph). I mean, I don't want to knock them, they were not causing major problems, but they could have simply gone on a twisty road and sort of learned there at the pace they were going and not had to pay the trackday fee and deal with all the logistics of getting to the track.

I guess I don't know how close/easy access is to nice windy roads versus the track. Tell us more about your background, I think that would help. Like did you ride dirt bikes as a kid so the whole shifting/braking thing is second nature? Right now approaching a hairpin turn signed at 15 mph, can you ride through that feeling totally comfortable with sighting, picking a line, positioning your body, braking, balance, accelerating, etc? I'd get to that point (I mean at *any* speed) before considering a trackday.

Hope that helps.

[alex.s]

you need full gear. the bike needs to have the lights taped with painters tape. don't try to break records just go have fun.

i've met people who have learned how to ride a motorcycle on track. there is no "too soon"

[jeffb502]

I wouldn't call myself a veteran, but as a fellow newbie I have some input.

The track is easier to ride than the street. There is much less to worry about, so you can focus on taking the corners properly. Compared to twisties, which frequently feature blind corners, gravel, debris in the roadway, oncoming traffic, etc., on the track you pretty much only have to worry about your riding and the flag stations. If other people want to ride faster than you they'll go around when safe in accordance with the rules for passing. The one track day I went to the C group rules were passing is OK anywhere on straightaways and OK on the outside in corners, but riders must always maintain at least a 6 foot safety cushion from other riders.

Many track days offer novice schools. You could consider seeking out one that offers a more formal new rider type school. There was one rider in particular that reminded me of the "street pace" riders mentioned by @AlanDog (cute dog by the way!). I liked seeing an obviously new and somewhat uncomfortable rider trying to improve, and didn't find it a problem to wait until safe to pass, then going around maintaining the required safety margin.

Twisty roads are much more dangerous and difficult to ride quickly than race tracks. I think it's safer for new riders that may not be comfortable riding quickly to be on the track in C group than on a twisty road on a weekend that's filled with A, B, and C pace riders. There's much more room to pass (and be passed) on a track than on a windy road.

The other thing is if you go off the track on a track, you will probably go off into a nice large dirt or grass run off area. On Mt Hamilton Rd today (see the CA/Western USA Ninjette Rally thread for pics/video) I was riding especially slow and nowhere near my limit because I could see it would be a long way down a cliff in many places if I screwed up. On the track you can ride closer to your limit, and explore where your limits are, with less risk of death/serious bodily injury if you make a mistake.

[AlanDog]

I totally agree that the street is not a place to push your limits, and that the track is where you want to go for that. The track is safer (but does have it's own set of dangers). I think the guys around here now (I live on Skyline Blvd in Oakland) who think this road is a racetrack are dumb.

For some newbies, being on a windy road is pushing their limits, even at the speed limit. In that case it is pretty safe. If you want to ride faster than you can see by line-of-sight, then yes, the track is safer.

[#maverick#]

Thanks for all the input. I will not track my bike until i have full gear, almost there at the moment. I have boots/gloves and jacket. Waiting on pants to be delivered and funds for another back protector apart from the jacket. I feel comfortable riding and i feel i have a good sense of the speed into corners without looking at the speedo. As i live in chicago there arent very many twisty roads that i know of. I will however seek one of those novice schools as you guys have mentioned

[Motofool]

Originally Posted by #maverick#

.........So what skills should i practice before my track day, whats the bare minimum i should have gear wise........

For the basic skills read or watch "A Twist of the Wrist 2".

For the rest:
http://www.soflasportbikes.com/forum...our-times.html

http://www.soflasportbikes.com/forum...hat-bring.html

.......... and all the priceless advices from @csmith12

[#maverick#]

@Motofool that stuff is good thanks for the links!

[adouglas]

Track day organizations vary in terms of required bike prep and personal gear. In some cases the requirements for the novice group are relaxed. Do some googling, find the tracks near you and the track day organizations that run there, then hit those websites.

My $0.02 on gear: You might want to reconsider your "minimum necessary" mindset. I worked a corner at a track day last week and out of the 100 riders in attendance, NOT ONE had marginal gear. I don't think I saw any textile at all, but wouldn't swear to that. For sure the overwhelming majority wore full leathers.

I'm with @AlanDog on getting experience. The track is a place to hone the skills you've got, not develop basic skills.

[sharky nrk]

Originally Posted by adouglas

My $0.02 on gear: You might want to reconsider your "minimum necessary" mindset.
I'm with @AlanDog on getting experience. The track is a place to hone the skills you've got, not develop basic skills.

I totally agree.

[tnr4]

Originally Posted by adouglas

I'm with @AlanDog on getting experience. The track is a place to hone the skills you've got, not develop basic skills.

Originally Posted by sharky nrk

I totally agree.

Yup, I'm with these guys. Yes, the track is the place to take your aggressive riding. But at 1000 miles, you're body likely doesn't even know how to ride aggressively yet. At my last track day, a buddy rode in the 'newbie' group with three others; he was the only one who didn't crash. The problem with being too new and getting out on the track is (even in the novice group) these guys absolutely fly by you, sometimes with an 80mph speed differential (!), and drag knee through the corners, and you become totally convinced that it can't be that hard. You try to follow someone into a corner, and panic (the cause of all three of my buddy's group crashes), or you grab too much brake or throttle at the wrong time. It's very difficult to not push yourself past your limits on a track, when your limits are so low.

So, my very humble two cents -- so take it exactly for how much it's worth: ride A LOT more on the curviest, most fun roads you can. Stay within the speed limit, read and reread that material that Hernan linked, practice those techniques, take pointers from good, patient, experienced riders, and then, several thousand miles into the future, do a novice track day. Hopefully, by then, you'll be more ready to up the speed without making a mistake.

[csmith12]

Imma go against the grain here, so please bear with me. Imma say register for your track day if you want. But....

Do it with a org that has a school component and take the school. Think of it as the MSF for the track. They will/should keep the speeds (especially closing speeds) and safe passing in check and watch you closely enough to provide personal and good feedback. Basically, if they don't have a ton of rules to the Novice group, it's not for you. Do your homework and talk to others that have done the school, not all track day orgs are the same or have a instructional class that is, well... ummm... what you really want. Although I believe there is much to learn on the street that builds to a track day, the street is no place to learn the majority of this stuff. If you can afford it, check out CSS or the like, their track day/school begins in a lot with a steering drill.

The most important thing to remember about a track day is, that first and foremost, it should be an educational experience first... with FUN coming in at a close second. And keep in mind that more fun can be had in the paddock when everyone arrives shinny side up. Let aggression come later with skill and always ride well within your limits because it's NOT a race.

ps. See my sig for the list of things you "should have" for your track day. Going with friends eases the burden and gives you some company to smile with.

[csmith12]

One more thing, there are plenty of track riders here. Post up! Never know... I might even come with you.

ps. Everyone else is invited too.

[alex.s]

it is easier to be taught correctly the first time, than it is to learn incorrectly and try to relearn incorrect skills and mistakes.

to those who are suggesting waiting before going to the track; how many new riders do you know who learned at the track? why do you believe this is not the correct way to go? how many people do you know with under 1000 miles that have a crash in twisties? i know a lot.

[sharky nrk]

Originally Posted by alex.s

it is easier to be taught correctly the first time, than it is to learn incorrectly and try to relearn incorrect skills and mistakes.

to those who are suggesting waiting before going to the track; how many new riders do you know who learned at the track? why do you believe this is not the correct way to go? how many people do you know with under 1000 miles that have a crash in twisties? i know a lot.

I am not specifying a time or mileage amount before going, but I do believe you should know the basics of riding a motorcycle before getting on the track. Like MSF basics, not track basics. And be proficient enough at them not to get hurt or get someone else hurt. Then by all means go to the track.

[alex.s]

i think 1000 miles should be quite more than enough to be proficient enough with motorcycle basics to go out on track.


in fact, take a look at ama racer nick grice. todd grice taught him how to ride a motorcycle at buttonwillow, IIRC. he was faster than most people in C group after his first weekend. with 0 street miles. he went and got his license for street like 6 months later. this is, in my mind, proof that learning how to ride on street is just stupid. what can you get from street that you can't get from track? danger. that is all.

[leed]

Autobahn Country Club is the closest track to you here. It is in Joliet, so it's about an hour, hour and a half drive from the city.

The main organization that runs there is Sportbike Track Time.

STT runs mandatory classroom sessions with their Novice groups and they divide their Novice group into groups based on riding experience. STT has spent a lot of time constantly improving their novice groups in an effort to make the transition from street to track a lot smoother and in an effort to keep you safe and aware. The first half of the day they run you through many drills and classroom sessions to introduce you to things you may not typically learn in street riding courses - throttle control, body position, line choice and most importantly to bring them all together, smooth is fast.

Throughout the first half of the day, you will be towed around by your coach (usually 5-8 riders per) following your peers and sometimes doing the leading. You will have the chance to work with your coach and ask all the questions/for all the criticisms you want and if you feel comfortable, they will let you loose on your own the second half of the day.

If nothing else, you will meet a ton of people in the same shoes as you and will be provided the opportunity to make some great friends and connections.

If you decide to ride with STT at Autobahn Country Club [ACC], I would suggest the North course!

This is pretty brief because I am posting from my work computer.. But if you're really interested in doing a track day, I have a spare suit for small peoples [38/48] and can help set your bike up for the track day [I live in Elgin]. You can also probably rideshare [trailer] with me or some other folks I know in the city.

My first trackday was on the Ninja 250 when I had maybe 5000 miles on my belt [though mostly highway] and I had an absolute blast. Maybe I'll fix my 250 and bring it then too!

[sharky nrk]

Originally Posted by alex.s

todd grice taught him how to ride a motorcycle at buttonwillow, IIRC. that is all.

Someone teaching you how to ride, especially someone very competent teaching you how to ride, sure

I don't think STT does a great job of teaching someone how to ride, and yes I have ridden with them, decent org and all but not a classroom, and not a place someone learns how to ride.

Ridesmart is better, NESBA was better, MCRA and Commonwealth did practically no teaching/classroom other than basic flags and such.

1000 street miles, maybe - maybe not; depends on the person and the miles. Let me be clear though, not saying that someone can't go or shouldn't go, its person by person

[sharky nrk]

ok re-read your post and I have to take that back I never rode novice with STT just Intermediate so that may vary.

[alex.s]

novice group at jennings gp had very competent and attentive instructors. and hauling balls behind ron (maybe it was jon?) was pretty fun when he was going fast. i thought ron/jon were pretty good teachers and i actually learned a thing or two from them. now i don't romance the corners, i cut straight to the sex. some of the people in that novice group looked like they might have been pretty new. you can ask basically any racer and they will be happy to help you and guide you. having a no-brakes tow behind someone skilled i think is probably some of the best instruction you could have. and with every track org i've heard of you can get it from one of the control riders.

combined with proper reading homework (lee parks) i'd say it should work out good with 1000 miles already.

[leed]

Originally Posted by sharky nrk

Someone teaching you how to ride, especially someone very competent teaching you how to ride, sure

I don't think STT does a great job of teaching someone how to ride, and yes I have ridden with them, decent org and all but not a classroom, and not a place someone learns how to ride.

Ridesmart is better, NESBA was better, MCRA and Commonwealth did practically no teaching/classroom other than basic flags and such.

1000 street miles, maybe - maybe not; depends on the person and the miles. Let me be clear though, not saying that someone can't go or shouldn't go, its person by person

Actually in the southeast region, I agree. STT in the midwest does a much better job with their Novice group than any other organization I have ridden with in the midwest or the southeast. I have ridden both I and N with what was NESBA, TPM, STT and MTD in both regions. STT here has a very in depth newbie group, and I definitely see many more track babies (for lack of a better term) here than I did in the southeast region which may be why. STT Novice is great for newcomers, but people who are a slow Intermediate/fast Novice who have not been bumped will get frustrated with the traffic on small tracks as a result. In my experience, the latter half of Sundays are great times to get private one on one time with coaches at no extra charge!

[csmith12]

Originally Posted by sharky nrk

MCRA and Commonwealth did practically no teaching/classroom other than basic flags and such.

I rode a few novice sessions with friends with MCRA. I thought the no mandatory drills/classroom was cool and made for a laid back track day. It's kinda nice that all orgs do not have that structure and just let you stretch your legs a bit. Yin and Yang if you will.

[leed]

Originally Posted by csmith12

I rode a few novice sessions with friends with MCRA. I thought the no mandatory drills/classroom was cool and made for a laid back track day. It's kinda nice that all orgs do not have that structure and just let you stretch your legs a bit. Yin and Yang if you will.

Agreed, to be honest after my first trackday I just wanted to work on comfort on the bike and improving my lines. Up here they don't make the classroom sessions and drills mandatory if you are in the upper groups of Novice (STT) and MTD will ask you to sit in if they think you need it.

[tnr4]

Originally Posted by alex.s

to those who are suggesting waiting before going to the track; how many new riders do you know who learned at the track? why do you believe this is not the correct way to go? how many people do you know with under 1000 miles that have a crash in twisties? i know a lot.

I'm sure it varies by person. As I said, IMHO. The OP should think about recommendations on both sides. My only point was that on a track you're much more likely to want and try to go fast. Is the street dangerous? Absolutely. But going out by yourself or with a trusted, advanced friend is a good way to learn on 30mph curves. It seems hard to watch everyone ride so aggressively and not want, NEED, to do it. The number of beginners that have crashed at the handful of days I've attended is pretty darn high; yes, it's better that they crash at the track, but better yet would be to not cross over their limits.

I have to say, it took me a lot of years to learn where my limits are and how to stay on the good side of them. Getting older probably helps too.

[sharky nrk]

Originally Posted by csmith12

I rode a few novice sessions with friends with MCRA. I thought the no mandatory drills/classroom was cool and made for a laid back track day. It's kinda nice that all orgs do not have that structure and just let you stretch your legs a bit. Yin and Yang if you will.

10-4, I didn't say it was bad just not the most conducive to learning to ride a motorcycle. I actually liked the fact that both those orgs didn't require classroom for I group. Ridesmart does and will hold you out if you don't go to class, in I/Lvl2. Sometimes I just want to sit on my but in the pits lol. All orgs are different and have their plus and minus.

[sharky nrk]

Good discussion

[csmith12]

I knew what ya meant Neil, it's all good.

[#maverick#]

Good discussion indeed guys... some valid points for me to consider. . Just to clarify I have taken the MSC BRC and will also be taking their IRC. My track date will more likely than not be after this course.. As for the minimum gear I misworded that I meant do the tracks have a minimum amount of gear.. im an ATGATT type of guy I wear my leathers an boots for the 2 mile ride to the gym.. however for the track I might buy extra back protection as well as a neck brace.


I will sign up for STT and take their novice classes I also will attend some track days as a spectator just to talk And maybe meet some new people and see how it all goes down.
@leed might take you up on that offer, would be cool to have someone who has some track day experience with me my first time. We'll keep in touch

[adouglas]

Well done.

I'm a big fan of learning all you can before the craziness and stress of your first outing.

As noted above I worked a corner at a track day last week. I got to watch tech, scope out the whole facility, see what goes on in the garage, watch everyone from total newbs to veterans on track, see what people have for gear and bikes, etc. etc.

Plus, they fed me and gave me a voucher to offset a future track day!

Don't know if anyone out your way does that, but it was a good experience. I can now head to my first track day knowing what to expect.

PS: I only saw one neck brace, but there may have been more. Few people wear them. EVERYBODY wears a back protector.

PPS: Now that everyone and their grandmother has a GoPro, chances are there's some on-board video of the track you select on the YouBooks and the Facetubes.

[sharky nrk]

Great attitude and plan Maverick. Sounds like your going to do just fine. I also pay for my track time though corner working when I can and it is good to see the other side of the operation and can really help you appreciate making good sound decisions on track.

Definitely get a back protector for sure, preferably a CE2 rated unit (I really like my Forcefield that I replaced my Dianese with).

[tnr4]

Originally Posted by #maverick#

Good discussion indeed guys... some valid points for me to consider. . Just to clarify I have taken the MSC BRC and will also be taking their IRC. My track date will more likely than not be after this course.. As for the minimum gear I misworded that I meant do the tracks have a minimum amount of gear.. im an ATGATT type of guy I wear my leathers an boots for the 2 mile ride to the gym.. however for the track I might buy extra back protection as well as a neck brace.


I will sign up for STT and take their novice classes I also will attend some track days as a spectator just to talk And maybe meet some new people and see how it all goes down.
@leed might take you up on that offer, would be cool to have someone who has some track day experience with me my first time. We'll keep in touch

Sounds like you're thinking this through well. That's a good plan. Good luck, friend!

[rc-rick]

Here is another option for you. MCRA has a Test The Track session at Gateway. If I remember right the cost is 1 dollar for one or two sessions. It gives you an opportunity to see if you like it and in your case the skill to go faster without having to purchace a full day.

MCRA does have class room instruction in the morning sessions. I have been running the N group for the last 2 years. We have been getting a lot of complements on the way we are running it now.

it is possible to go to slow at a track day. If you are not able to do enough speed in the corners and straights, you will be a danger to yourself and others. At a recent Blackhawk event there was a rider who was told they could not ride the track due to the lack of speed. They need more skill/balls to come back. It doesnt happen often but can happen.

Plus, If you come to a MCRA event, you eill get to see some kick ass 250 racing!

[BoBO]

I haven't done any track on my bike yet due to lack of time. However,you will know when you are ready to hit the tracks when you are:

1.Confident in yourself & your bike
2. Familiar with your bikes limits
3. able to lean your bike comfortably at a certain pace, while maintaining a comfortable and consistent body position.

Everyone has a different learning curve, some will feel good to go by... 1000 miles and some by 3000 miles. You should be ready to track by 5000 miles. It all depends on how much seat time you get on your bike.In general, if you ride everyday then you will improve faster than someone who rides only once a week.

As far as track gear, you need boots, gauntlet gloves, race suit, spine protector, and helmet. You have to be covered up. Some track orgs will require you to have health insurance, but other than that just prep the bike up. Going to the track is an amazing experience. I use to drive aggressively in the canyons on my miata, but the track is so much better. It's safer and you have a clearer mind, plus it's the responsible thing to do. If you can go with someone who has track experience, that would e even better. Post some pics after your track.

[cbinker]

go to the track day org, download their rider gear/bike checklist.

[alex.s]

Originally Posted by tnr4

I'm sure it varies by person. As I said, IMHO. The OP should think about recommendations on both sides. My only point was that on a track you're much more likely to want and try to go fast. Is the street dangerous? Absolutely. But going out by yourself or with a trusted, advanced friend is a good way to learn on 30mph curves. It seems hard to watch everyone ride so aggressively and not want, NEED, to do it. The number of beginners that have crashed at the handful of days I've attended is pretty darn high; yes, it's better that they crash at the track, but better yet would be to not cross over their limits.

I have to say, it took me a lot of years to learn where my limits are and how to stay on the good side of them. Getting older probably helps too.

most novice groups at reputable track orgs have many control riders. in fact for most orgs the first session is a set of parade laps followed by easing into a very slow pace. basically everyone is just learning lines by following the control riders at first as they are slowly brought up. after the first session you can go ask a control rider for more tows and they will give you lots of advice. good advice because they know what they are doing, not ****** advice like your cousin tommy who tells you turning is all about the hip motion and swears he can wheelie for miles even though every time you ask him to show you he says he doesn't want to because he needs a new rear tire from "doing too many burnouts."

many new riders (myself included) have crashed due to very basic mistakes on a road that has no room for mistakes. if those same mistakes were made on a nice big track with lots of room and then lots of runoff on top of that? they would have just been mistakes instead of crashes. i know for sure that i get more aggressive on the bikes when i am out in the nowhere by myself vs with someone else. most people will push themselves on a bike whether they are out on the road or out on track. it is why they bought a bike in the first place. it makes more sense to me to put them in a good environment that fosters correct learning and low risk testing.

[Aufitt]

There is nothing the road will teach you that applies to track riding except bad habits, making it harder for the student and the instructors.

The best students are those that have little road riding experience (and juniors that have never ridden a roadbike) time and time again Ive seen those riders fast track to racing within a year or two.
eg; I race with a girl who started track only 2 yrs ago with limited road riding.. she is now winning National races and an a track day instructor.

So get out there and learn the correct way from the level 1 track day coaches, its so slow (feels fast the first 5 or 6 days but its not) and you are in far safer hands than any road experience could give you.

[csmith12]

Originally Posted by alex.s

most novice groups at reputable track orgs have many control riders. in fact for most orgs the first session is a set of parade laps followed by easing into a very slow pace. basically everyone is just learning lines by following the control riders at first as they are slowly brought up. after the first session you can go ask a control rider for more tows and they will give you lots of advice. good advice because they know what they are doing, not ****** advice like your cousin tommy who tells you turning is all about the hip motion and swears he can wheelie for miles even though every time you ask him to show you he says he doesn't want to because he needs a new rear tire from "doing too many burnouts."

many new riders (myself included) have crashed due to very basic mistakes on a road that has no room for mistakes. if those same mistakes were made on a nice big track with lots of room and then lots of runoff on top of that? they would have just been mistakes instead of crashes. i know for sure that i get more aggressive on the bikes when i am out in the nowhere by myself vs with someone else. most people will push themselves on a bike whether they are out on the road or out on track. it is why they bought a bike in the first place. it makes more sense to me to put them in a good environment that fosters correct learning and low risk testing.

Preach! It's about perspective. When I just rode street, novice seemed crazy fast... then I got more skillz. Ride advanced for a session... novice pace seems painful.

[Gurk]

Too early to ride track?

Link to original page on YouTube.

[tnr4]

This discussion has been very interesting. A friend and his wife were over tonight, and we discussed the nerves that his wife has had for a couple of seasons now, many of which had to do with anxieties from traffic and too much to keep track of. We all decided that if she could get a sufficiently careful track course, this would be hugely helpful (because she really does want to really learn how to enjoy riding, but gets too anxious on the street).

So I think I've been convinced -- so long as the track day org is set up for it, and the rider is sufficiently mature and has the right perspective. My main concern was that the average (going to be mainly street-rider) is much more likely to crash by riding aggressively than by not; and that it's very hard to not ride aggressively on the track (in my experience). But I think I agree now that at least some people will benefit greatly from the track early on.

I still maintain that it depends on the individual, though. When I only had 1000 street miles under my belt, I would have crashed my first track day (the way all the newbs I've seen crash on the first track day have). Because my goal would have been to go fast instead of learn. Thankfully I'm too old for that sh*t now; and it sounds like the OP has a great attitude, so probably will benefit him.

[csmith12]

The only thing that is missing in this thread is... you're NEVER forced to ride and can stop at any point you feel uncomfortable. There is always another day to give it a 2nd go.