12 second cushion of time

[MrAtom]

When I took the BRC, I was told to plan 12 seconds in advance. What exactly does this mean? I can plan 8 seconds ahead if I'm really focused, and I always have an escape route, but 12 is a bit of a stretch for me. Is the 12 second standard unrealistic, do I need to be on Adderall, or does this kind of mindet fully develop over time? I really don't want to get smooshed like a bug.

[Alex]

I don't know whether 12 seconds ahead is actually feasible in all circumstances. Traffic might be so busy or chaotic that 12 seconds is just too much time to work through all of the possibilities. For me it's just a reminder to look further than right in front of you, further than just the car in front of you, and if possible, even further than the car in front of them. The more vision and thought you put into where you are going to be and where everyone else is going to be, the less you're surprised when something interesting happens. Hopefully that mean that any reactions that we have to take are better thought out, and can happen that much faster than they would have otherwise.

[cbinker]

1 mph is 1.466666666666666666667 feet per second.

35 mph = 51FPS x 12= 624, so you should be looking the length of 2 football fields in front of you.

[MrAtom]

Mmkay. Thank you both. Yeah, I didn't figure it was feasible, but I don't really like saying that the MSF is wrong, you know? It's better to get a second opinion on this kind of thing. I've almost got my actioncam setup. I'll upload a video of my riding and see what everyone here thinks. I want to be as good at this as possible.

[ally99]

Originally Posted by Alex

I don't know whether 12 seconds ahead is actually feasible in all circumstances. Traffic might be so busy or chaotic that 12 seconds is just too much time to work through all of the possibilities. For me it's just a reminder to look further than right in front of you, further than just the car in front of you, and if possible, even further than the car in front of them. The more vision and thought you put into where you are going to be and where everyone else is going to be, the less you're surprised when something interesting happens. Hopefully that mean that any reactions that we have to take are better thought out, and can happen that much faster than they would have otherwise.

I agree. The message is to look ahead as far as possible. Sometimes 12 seconds is feasible, and there are rare moments you can see even farther ahead than that! Most crashes can be avoided if the potential is spotted and planned for way ahead of the time of the incident. Always assume a crash is ahead with every car you see. They'r all out trying to kill us, so ride that way.

[Hero Danny]

Hmm.. I never really thought about the time. I usually just scan the road and analyse all the cars and other potential hazards (like those damn pedestrians). Usually I pay close attention to the cars that are parked on the sides of the road and waiting for an opportunity to swing into my lane. Next I worry about the car in front of me and making sure he doesn't slam on his brakes for whatever reason. Depending on the road I will also be checking oncoming traffic for people who may be attempting cut across. And then finally I'll look way far ahead for any traffic or out of the ordinary obstacles (suck as large puddles or construction.

Also I am always paranoid about cops, Whenever I am on the highway and go by a spot where cops will be hiding I will always slow down to the speed limit (just let go of gas, braking isn't necessary) until I pass the area and then speed off.

This all may not be perfect, but it's kept me safe so far, and believe me I've had many instances where I could have crashed if I was not paying attention to people (especially on the sides of the road).

[choneofakind]

I think you might be a tad confused. Isn't it actually the 2, 4, 12 second rule at city speeds?

2 seconds minimum following distance.
4 seconds is the distance immediately in front of you that should have your full attention for immediate problems.
12 seconds is the distance you should be scanning for other potential problems, like left turners.

That doesn't mean to plan 12 seconds in advance, it means to be scanning the whole way forward (in city traffic, this is basically your full line of sight) for potential problems. Your immediate planning is really the 4 second distance. Thinking 12 seconds in advance is information overload and will overwhelm you so that you're not effective at the immediate 4 second threats.

Imagine it like the space invaders game. The 2 and 4 second distances are the little minion space ships that are the immediate and close up threat to your spaceship. The 12 second distance is the big boss at the top that's not really an immediate issue but is something you should keep in mind when you start getting breaks in the minions.





It's the same stuff you should already be doing while driving, or mowing the lawn, or using machinery/power tools. Focus on the immediate safety threats, but always keep the big picture in mind. If you're not scanning at multiple levels while driving, you should start doing so.

[adouglas]

You're not doing all of it all the time. You can't... multitasking is a myth.

What humans do well is serial unitask; we switch from one thing to another quickly. You see the multitasking myth in action all the time... you're talking and someone checks their phone. They THINK they're still listening to you but they aren't. They're focusing on email, even if only for a moment.

Try this sometime... when you're having a conversion with someone and they pull their phone out to look at it, stop talking in the middle of a sentence. See how long it takes them to notice. I'll bet you'll be shocked and disappointed.

On the bike, you look far ahead when you can. If the proverbial bouncing ball followed by a child appears 50 feet away, you're not looking 12 seconds ahead any more, right? The reverse is true. One thing at a time, and give that one thing your attention.

In aviation the equivalent is the "scan." You look at your instruments in an organized way while also checking for traffic... look at the airspeed, then look out the window, then look at the altimeter, then at a different part of the sky, etc. etc.

[Motofool]

Originally Posted by MrAtom

........... I really don't want to get smooshed like a bug.

https://www.ninjette.org/forums/showthread.php?t=185208

http://www.motorcyclistonline.com/bl...ics-code-break

http://www.motorcyclistonline.com/bl...eye-code-break

http://www.motorcyclistonline.com/bl...ion-code-break

[csmith12]

Originally Posted by adouglas

You're not doing all of it all the time. You can't... multitasking is a myth.

What humans do well is serial unitask; we switch from one thing to another quickly. You see the multitasking myth in action all the time... you're talking and someone checks their phone. They THINK they're still listening to you but they aren't. They're focusing on email, even if only for a moment.

Try this sometime... when you're having a conversion with someone and they pull their phone out to look at it, stop talking in the middle of a sentence. See how long it takes them to notice. I'll bet you'll be shocked and disappointed.

On the bike, you look far ahead when you can. If the proverbial bouncing ball followed by a child appears 50 feet away, you're not looking 12 seconds ahead any more, right? The reverse is true. One thing at a time, and give that one thing your attention.

In aviation the equivalent is the "scan." You look at your instruments in an organized way while also checking for traffic... look at the airspeed, then look out the window, then look at the altimeter, then at a different part of the sky, etc. etc.

Hmmm, part of me that thinks agrees with you 100%, and at the same time part of me doesn't.


Think about what is just said... and one will understand true multitasking.

[alex.s]

Originally Posted by adouglas

You're not doing all of it all the time. You can't... multitasking is a myth.

What humans do well is serial unitask; we switch from one thing to another quickly. You see the multitasking myth in action all the time... you're talking and someone checks their phone. They THINK they're still listening to you but they aren't. They're focusing on email, even if only for a moment.

i don't think this is right but i'm too lazy to explain my views on the subject.

Originally Posted by adouglas

In aviation the equivalent is the "scan." You look at your instruments in an organized way while also checking for traffic... look at the airspeed, then look out the window, then look at the altimeter, then at a different part of the sky, etc. etc.

but this is a very good point about the physical limitations of our eyes to see distinct features like where a needle gauge is pointing relative to a bar graph. movement, and especially changes in movement though- your peripheral vision is absolutely amazing at detecting this and processing it quickly.

but glancing takes time to process. most people will not glance, they will stare until they process what they see. this is a mistake that isn't needed. you already saw it. you don't need to keep seeing it. you'll process it a short time later. this is where the double-take comes from. "did i just see that? yeah i just saw that."

[MrAtom]

All good information. Thanks guys!

[adouglas]

Originally Posted by csmith12

Hmmm, part of me that thinks agrees with you 100%, and at the same time part of me doesn't.


Think about what is just said... and one will understand true multitasking.

Here's something to add to the mix:

There's a difference between muscle memory and focused attention.

As a musician I sometimes have to sing and play at the same time. I can do both, but I can only focus on one.... That's the "task." The other thing is on autopilot.

"Unitasking" doesn't mean you stop one activity to focus on another. It means that you actually pay attention to only one thing at a time.

As a married man, you know very well how easy it is to completely miss something your spouse just said to you, even though you'd swear you were paying attention. Ten billion "you never listen!" complaints have come from that very phenomenon in the past year alone. This is a real thing. It happens to me all the time and I'll bet it happens to you, too. Ask yourself why. You're a good husband and father. Why aren't you able to focus on and absorb every word your family says to you?

Go ahead... try to actually FOCUS on two things at once... two things that require you to process information. Say, do an arithmetic problem in your head while writing down a sentence someone speaks to you. Sure you can do that... if you focus on only one of the tasks at a time.

It looks like multitasking but it isn't. It's breaking down two complex tasks into little bits and doing the bits one at a time.

You may have seen this, but if not it's eye opening.

Link to original page on YouTube.

[eddiekay]

Try this sometime... when you're having a conversion with someone and they pull their phone out to look at it, stop talking in the middle of a sentence. See how long it takes them to notice. I'll bet you'll be shocked and disappointed.

I've witnessed this scores of times talking with people who were otherwise hanging on every word I said.

[alex.s]

maybe you guys are just boring and the person loses interest and starts playing with their phone

[adouglas]

Sorry, what? I was paying attention to something else....

[csmith12]

I like the direction this post it taking. 12 seconds is FOREVER to the mind.

Autistic people blow the muscle memory theory out of the water by being able to play a song from memory after only hearing it once. Sadly, their amazing abilities come at a cost that is way too high.

[adouglas]

Originally Posted by csmith12

I like the direction this post it taking. 12 seconds is FOREVER to the mind.

Autistic people blow the muscle memory theory out of the water by being able to play a song from memory after only hearing it once. Sadly, their amazing abilities come at a cost that is way too high.

But are autistic people able to do more than one thing at a time? I confess I don't actually know, but my impression is that when a person with autism focuses on something it is to the exclusion of everything else... unable to switch tasks as easily as those without the condition.

Ask a person with autism who is playing that song a question while they're playing, and would they even hear you?

[alex.s]

are you only talking about using one skill in two ways simultaneously? (ie- language comprehension, carrying a text and a spoken conversation at the same time) or just any two skills? because i can chew bubble gum while i hop on one foot and pat my head while you ask me questions and i'm hopping through a maze... but none of those are using the same parts of your brain at the same time are they... they're all very different tasks. like riding a vehicle while navigating traffic and carrying a conversation... people do this all the time. though yeah sometimes when **** gets cray you gotta be like holdup biatcha i gotta flipabitch

[Misti]

Originally Posted by ally99

I agree. The message is to look ahead as far as possible. Sometimes 12 seconds is feasible, and there are rare moments you can see even farther ahead than that! Most crashes can be avoided if the potential is spotted and planned for way ahead of the time of the incident. Always assume a crash is ahead with every car you see. They'r all out trying to kill us, so ride that way.

Agreed that the message is to look as far ahead as possible and not to worry so much about how many seconds exactly are planning for. What sometimes gets missed in the explanation of looking ahead is also the concept of keeping your vision pulled open WIDE. We sometimes get so focussed on looking ahead that we almost create a tunnel in front of us and only see what is directly in our path or within the scope of the lane in front of us, instead of seeing what is all around us.

This doesn't mean flicking your eyes from side to side or turning your head to scan all around you, it means challenging your eyes to see WIDER while still looking ahead.

Does that make sense? You can practice it right now. Look ahead and see what is in your field of vision. Now press your eyes to see what is going on beside you WITHOUT turning your head or moving your eyes. See how your field of vision WIDENED?

How might that help when riding?

[csmith12]

Originally Posted by Misti

Now press your eyes to see what is going on beside you WITHOUT turning your head or moving your eyes.

I got help with pressing my eyes, still didn't work. What did I do wrong?



lol, I have a real problem teaching people wide view. It's like most riders only see 30% of the world. I just can't explain the mental part of it.

[EsrTek]

I wouldn't put a time on it, and never heard of 12 secs (or any secs) on a bike..

It has always been taught to me as scanning or active scan.

Just know to look as far ahead as possible to see threats, but you also have to know what is on your sides, behind you and possible objects from sky (like a truck tire that almost nailed me Sunday).

Scan scan and scan again ...

[Misti]

Originally Posted by csmith12

I got help with pressing my eyes, still didn't work. What did I do wrong?



lol, I have a real problem teaching people wide view. It's like most riders only see 30% of the world. I just can't explain the mental part of it.

Hardy har

What I often do to really SHOW people the difference between riding with limited vision vs riding with a WIDE view is to have cup their hands around their eyes as if they are making a little tunnel and have them walk forward looking through this narrow vision. Then I have them take their hands away and notice the difference in how much more they can see. Then to imagine that at riding pace.

Or I ask about how much of the track they see when they are riding. Do they see a few feet on either side of them, do they see half the track, edge to edge, do they see things that are off the track/road?

What else, besides helping with seeing possible dangers, does a wider view help with?

[Motofool]

Originally Posted by csmith12

............ I have a real problem teaching people wide view. It's like most riders only see 30% of the world. I just can't explain the mental part of it.

Even when they don't "look" out of that 30%, just by expecting to see out of that narrow field, they still could easily detect the most effective things: changes of trajectory and changes of color.

It happened to me today while riding: not seeing much more in my peripheral field that blurry traffic moving along, a sudden change of direction of a green car way over the right corner of that field made me react immediately.

I did not know what it was, but something was moving out of synchrony with the flow of traffic.
Maybe because that car was hidden behind another vehicle, as it suddenly showed up, the green color was not in the "inventory" of what my peripheral view had checked for me.

Maybe just teaching them that they should expect to see dangers away from their focal points could make the difference.