Need advice about shifting

[Joshua95]

Hi guys I haven't been riding for a very long time and I'm struggling about shifting gears, hopefully you guys can help me out. I know how to take off from 1st gear and I also know very well where my friction zone is. The problem started when I moved on from 1st gear. I'm not sure why but everytime I shift to 2nd gear I always jerk, 2nd to 3rd I jerk a little, 3rd to 4th still jerk a bit, 4th to 5th is fine sometimes, 5th to 6th no jerk. This is what I do when changing gear:

-I shift from 1st to 2nd (3k-4k rpm range): pull clutch in, let off throttle, change gear, on throttle(slowly releasing clutch) and jerk, same thing if I let go off the clutch immediately

-shift from 2nd to 3rd(4k rpm range): same strategy and still jerk

-shift from 3rd to 4th(5k rpm range): same strategy and jerk a bit

-shift from 4th to 5th(6k rpm range): same strategy, smooth but sometimes jerk just a lil bit

-shift from 5th to 6th(6k-7k rpm range): same strategy, smooth

My bike is ninja 250r 09 everything is stock except the exhaust.

I saw a lot of people can shift gear just fine without jerking so am I doing something wrong here? do I shift to fast or? what strategy I could use so that I can change gear smoothly without jerk?

See if you guys can help me out with problem that I have. I'd appreciate any words from you guys.

[Dredgshadow]

I think it's just practice dude. I'm no gear ratio expert by any means, but I know that 5th and 6th is a lot less of a change in gearing than 1st and 2nd. Try not to over think it and it will probably work itself out.
Are you by chance shifting gears slowly aka you pull in the clutch and slowly put it into second (allowing the rpms to drop) then back on the throttle? This would make the bike be going from 1500ish rpms to the 4k that you are bringing the bike to as you say, in 2nd gear. If you did it a little quicker and smoother then the rpms would glide more into 2nd...I have no idea if that made sense. It does in my head.

[Brother Michigan]

It sounds like you're simply letting the clutch out too fast and giving the bike a bit too much throttle. It's very much a familiarity thing and you will certainly smooth things out with practice.

[JohnnyBravo]

Don't have enough info... You will get it though, think smooth!

"Be water" @csmith12

[alex.s]

jerk which way

[alex.s]

you could try not using the clutch for upshifts

[Alex]

The rev ranges that you are shifting at are a little low for our 250. I'd try running 1st to 6k or 7k, similar in 2nd and 3rd. The bike will feel better, and the shifts might even be a little smoother. Other than that, it just takes practice. Can you drive a manual shift car?

[Whiskey]

You're very low on the RPMs, you're lugging the engine below 6k or so, keep the gear lower & bring the revs up for more speed.

You're better off shifting much higher, 8k or above to keep it on the power once it's in the next gear.

You can also upshift without the clutch, just preload the shift lever a little, then dip the throttle off slightly & back on it'll click in. (It's a little harder to do that consistently for 1-2 but from 2nd up it's easy, trying to go down clutchless isn't great for the gearbox, it can bend shift forks apparently)

[DaBlue1]

Is the jerk once or is more like multiple jerks due to lack of power?

If it's one jerk I'd look at the cush drive. It's rubber bushings inside the rear sprocket. They help cushion the jerk or drive lash when applying and releasing throttle. They sometimes go bad, but that usually happens on bikes with some age on them. The rear sprocket should have a little bit of play in, but if it is too much you will get the jerk. With the rear wheel off the ground you should be able to move the rear sprocket with out the wheel moving (approx 5mm or less)

The other thing I'd look at, is proper chain slack.

Try upping your rpms when shifting (5-7k rpms). The bike really doesn't have enough power under 4k. 3k just gets it going

[Joshua95]

Thanks a lot for the words you guys I really appreciate. I think you guys were right. I shift gear a little too soon with low rpm maybe I should revved it more into 6k-7k range to upshift. Does upshifting with no clutch safe? I mean is it gonna ruin the engine? I know that downshift with no clutch is a no no.

Also for those who asked. No I can't drive manual car. I always jerked forward. When I upshift I did it in 1 quick motion (clutch in, off throttle, change gear, on throttle+clutch out) @DaBlue1 it feels like I jerked once when I change gear. I might check the sprocket like you said, thanks for the advice.

I'm gonna practice more with shifting gear and see how it turned out. Once again thanks a lot for the advice. I'll come back when I have questions.

[antiant]

When I first got my bike, I would jerk like how you are describing. You need to practice more. The jerking is a result of shifting too fast and the rev's not matching. Btw, have you taken the MSF or any type of class? I also changed my levers to adjustable one's, which helped tremendously.

[Joshua95]

Originally Posted by antiant

When I first got my bike, I would jerk like how you are describing. You need to practice more. The jerking is a result of shifting too fast and the rev's not matching. Btw, have you taken the MSF or any type of class? I also changed my levers to adjustable one's, which helped tremendously.

Yeah I think that is my main problem I shift with low rpm. Yes I took the MSF class back in december, but I just got the ninja about 4 days ago. I was thinking about that too changing the brake and clutch lever to the adjustable one.

[antiant]

Originally Posted by Joshua95

Yeah I think that is my main problem I shift with low rpm. Yes I took the MSF class back in december, but I just got the ninja about 4 days ago. I was thinking about that too changing the brake and clutch lever to the adjustable one.

Yeah, sounds like that is the issue. It wasn't pretty my first few months, lol. I'm still learning. I highly recommend at least a lever modification as it made a world of difference for me, literally night and day.

[dcj13]

Originally Posted by Joshua95

...No I can't drive manual car. I always jerked forward.

You'd probably be a lot better at it now. Try it again.

I was gonna say "shift at a higher RPM", but Alex and Morgan already covered that...

[Motofool]

Originally Posted by Joshua95

.........When I upshift I did it in 1 quick motion (clutch in, off throttle, change gear, on throttle+clutch out) @DaBlue1 it feels like I jerked once when I change gear. I might check the sprocket like you said, thanks for the advice.

90% chance it is just play in the sprocket cushion and too much chain slack.

In order to verify whether or not is that, try dragging the rear brake while you do a test shifting as normal.

[csmith12]

Originally Posted by JohnnyBravo

Don't have enough info... You will get it though, think smooth!

"Be water" @csmith12

lol

Link to original page on YouTube.

[rojoracing53]

Originally Posted by Alex

The rev ranges that you are shifting at are a little low for our 250. I'd try running 1st to 6k or 7k, similar in 2nd and 3rd. The bike will feel better, and the shifts might even be a little smoother. Other than that, it just takes practice. Can you drive a manual shift car?

I hate this comparison because just because I can control the clutch on a bike far better then most professional racers and shifting gears is as easy as breathing doesn't mean I can drive anything with manual transmission. The one thing I sweated the most about when getting the 370Z out on track last year was not stalling it in front of every Lamborghini and Porsche stacked up behind me as well as not grinding 3rd gear on my down shifts.

As for why the OP seems smoother a shifting as he gets higher in the gears, it's a little something we who understand physics like to call leverage. As for getting better try what everyone else said minus the clutchless **** and keep practicing.

[alex.s]

Originally Posted by rojoracing53

I hate this comparison because just because I can control the clutch on a bike far better then most professional racers and shifting gears is as easy as breathing

so modest.

Originally Posted by rojoracing53

doesn't mean I can drive anything with manual transmission. The one thing I sweated the most about when getting the 370Z out on track last year was not stalling it in front of every Lamborghini and Porsche stacked up behind me as well as not grinding 3rd gear on my down shifts.

you aren't blipping the throttle enough.

[Alex]

Originally Posted by rojoracing53

I hate this comparison because just because I can control the clutch on a bike far better then most professional racers and shifting gears is as easy as breathing doesn't mean I can drive anything with manual transmission.

Right - but it's kinda the other way around. When learning how to drive a manual car, you need to learn clutch control, and with practice it gets quite smooth. If you can feel the friction zone, modulate the throttle appropriately to get the car moving from a stop, you gain an intuitive feel for it. Once that is mastered, doing the same thing on a motorcycle is a piece of cake, as the clutches are so much more forgiving, and the power to weight ratio is such that it's pretty much impossible to stall most bikes. Essentially, a new rider can be a completely crap shifter with limited feel for the clutch engagement, and get away with it; while that on a car just won't work.

Just check out any MSF class where many students are sitting on a bike for the first time - those who do have a feel for the clutch from driving a car have a huge advantage. So much so, that I'd recommend that new riders who can't drive a manual car, see if there is a way for them to learn to do so. Either in conjunction with learning how to ride a bike, or over different time periods. Smoothness with one will translate to smoothness with another.

Whether or not someone goes down that path, just gaining experience is the key here. I highly doubt there is anything physically wrong with this bike, but if the OP is still concerned, have a more experienced rider take it for a spin around the block to confirm.

[Yakaru]

One thing that can always help: shift SLOWER. Especially letting the clutch back out and rolling on the throttle. Do it slower and you get a feel for what the engine/transmission is doing and can figure out whats going wrong. Shifting quickly then comes naturally as you get proficient at it.

[alex.s]

Originally Posted by Alex

it's pretty much impossible to stall most bikes.

i stalled my dirt bike on sunday. then it wouldn't start. i didn't have a phone, so i wound up pushing it for a long time. after awhile i gave up pushing it and figured out i needed SUPERCHOKE so i took my shorts off and stuffed them in the airbox and turned the choke and idle all the way up and kicked it for another 10 minutes it seemed like. finally that old bitch woke up and took me home.

[Yakaru]

Originally Posted by alex.s

i stalled my dirt bike on sunday. then it wouldn't start. i didn't have a phone, so i wound up pushing it for a long time. after awhile i gave up pushing it and figured out i needed SUPERCHOKE so i took my shorts off and stuffed them in the airbox and turned the choke and idle all the way up and kicked it for another 10 minutes it seemed like. finally that old bitch woke up and took me home.

I can't tell if this is hilarious, sad, or disturbing.

[cbinker]

shift between 8-10 RPM

[rojoracing53]

**** that you should always shift at 13,500 RPMs.

Link to original page on YouTube.

[csmith12]

Hey Joshua, hope your enjoying riding so far. Being new is one of the best times because everything is such a new experience. Did you take the MSF? If not, you really should.

I agree with the other posters about shifting at higher rpms but ya might not want to just jump in head first shifting at 13k revs, lol. And fyi... the lil ninja isn't known to have the smoothest of 1st gear shifts, unless you're pretty smooth with the clutch. Some 250 riders hated it so much they installed a 15t front sprocket to give them a bit more range in 1st.

1st thing I would do is ensure you clutch cable and chain are adjusted to spec. I believe there is a how to thread floating around somewhere.

Next, get to an empty parking lot or clean, clear area and take some time to get intimate with your clutch lever and friction zone. During the MSF, the 2nd range exercise is the friction zone/duck walk. I know you can already ride but do this again. The point is to not only feel the friction zone, but also to start building some familiarity with where the friction zone is felt via the lever. The 3rd exercise specifically addresses your issues of shifting from 1st to 2nd and beyond. However, without having a firm grasp on the friction zone, the shifts can be jerky.

As a RiderCoach, I would recommend that you revisit those 2 exercises and continue to build your skill from there. Just like the throttle & brakes, the clutch is a finely tuned instrument. It's use can have a very subtle or a dramatic effect on what the bike feels like. The better you are at using the clutch, the smoother the bike can feel.

Lastly, the throttle and clutch have a close relationship. One has an effect on the other. There is a "sweet spot" on the throttle when shifting. This sweet spot is technically this; engine speed = road speed. With enough time spent riding, you will build your 6th sense being able to match the two without even thinking. Then poof... most of your shifts will be smooth. Get out there! Practice and have fun.

[csmith12]

OH! I don't remember you having an intro thread. Welcome!

[capt_bugaloo]

You're shifting at only 3000-4000 RPM? This ain't no Harley - rev the crap out of it! I shift at around 8000 or so.

I recommend you go to an empty parking lot or a deserted street and just spend an hour or two running back and forth, working through the first three gears and practicing some braking too.

[ally99]

Originally Posted by Joshua95

Does upshifting with no clutch safe? I mean is it gonna ruin the engine? I know that downshift with no clutch is a no no.

IF you do it flawlessly, clutchless upshifts are completely benign to your engine, your transmission, and save clutch wear. However, doing it correctly is the key. Yes, you can seriously damage your tranny if you upshift clutchlessly incorrectly...wow, lots of adverbs in that sentence.

I initially learned to ride without the clutch before taking the MSF class when I learned how to work with the clutch...My first 2-3 months of riding, I only used clutchless except from 1st-2nd, and even being a noob, I didn't damage my transmission. Even so, I would recommend using the clutch as a new rider because I either got really lucky or had mad clutchless skills from the get-go...mostly likely luck was on my side.

[alex.s]

i always like to think its hard to screw up transmissions and that people overreact. then i think back to the 3 transmissions and 2 engines i've blown. ok. maybe go easy on them.

[Alex]

^^^^^

[Joshua95]

Hey guys. Wow its been a while since my last post. Just want to post an update. I have been practicing a lot with the advice you guys been giving me. Yes the jerks are gone, well sometimes I still can feel the jerk but not as hard as when I started this thread. I made a habit to shift gear with high rpm, now I always shift on 7k ish range rpm and its made a smooth transition.

Back when I took the msf course on December. We can't go too fast, the maximum speed we travel was like 25-30mph lol between 2nd-3rd gear, and shift on 4k-5k rpm range with a cruiser. That's probably why when I try to shift on ninja it jerks on 4k-5k rpm range lol (I'm pretty shy with the throttle since this ninja is my first bike so lol)

But I'm getting better now at shifting, and will practice more on taking a corner smoothly also doing a U-turn (I'm so poor at doing U-turns always put my feet down)

Thanks a lot for the advice and help. Appreciate it.

[Whiskey]

Originally Posted by Joshua95

Hey guys. Wow its been a while since my last post. Just want to post an update. I have been practicing a lot with the advice you guys been giving me. Yes the jerks are gone, well sometimes I still can feel the jerk but not as hard as when I started this thread. I made a habit to shift gear with high rpm, now I always shift on 7k ish range rpm and its made a smooth transition.

Back when I took the msf course on December. We can't go too fast, the maximum speed we travel was like 25-30mph lol between 2nd-3rd gear, and shift on 4k-5k rpm range with a cruiser. That's probably why when I try to shift on ninja it jerks on 4k-5k rpm range lol (I'm pretty shy with the throttle since this ninja is my first bike so lol)

But I'm getting better now at shifting, and will practice more on taking a corner smoothly also doing a U-turn (I'm so poor at doing U-turns always put my feet down)

Thanks a lot for the advice and help. Appreciate it.

2nd gear, steady throttle @ about 3.5k RPM, feather the clutch, look where you want to go.

Keeping the bars a fraction off lock is easier than hitting full lock.

[alex.s]

Originally Posted by Whiskey

2nd gear, steady throttle @ about 3.5k RPM, feather the clutch, look where you want to go.

Keeping the bars a fraction off lock is easier than hitting full lock.

nah bro. 1st gear, in hot, lock the rear and then drop the clutch at 9krpm at 75% lean and carry the slide all the way up.

[ally99]

Originally Posted by Joshua95

But I'm getting better now at shifting, and will practice more on taking a corner smoothly also doing a U-turn (I'm so poor at doing U-turns always put my feet down)
Thanks a lot for the advice and help. Appreciate it.

U-turns are fun and predictable once you do it a few times correctly. The key points:

ALWAYS look where you want to end up...you'll be nearly looking over your shoulder just before turn-in.

Push the bike out from under you as countersteering isn't in play at such low speeds.

Some clutch modulation helps you stay smooth.

Rear brake helps the bike remain upright.

Second gear is my preference as 1st can be a bit choppier.

Practice in a parking lot. You can do a full-lock turn and you're only barely really leaned over at all. Have a friend watch you or watch someone who's comfortable with tight turns and you'll see for yourself just how little you're actually leaned.

Some reading for you:

https://www.ninjette.org/forums/show...ghlight=u-turn

https://www.ninjette.org/forums/show...ghlight=u-turn