Fuse frustration - newer to me 2004 popping fuses like it's party time

[Aran]

Hi guys,

I've had this Ninja 250 for a year and put 3k or so miles on it in that time (It's not my only bike, I bought it for my wife to learn to ride, and she's put maybe... 3 on it thanks to the weather and her work schedule never quite aligning). The only thing aftermarket on it as far as I know is the fused battery tender leads.

Recently, it started blowing tail light/brake light fuses. The first one, I discovered that there was a 30A fuse in the ACC slot, so I put the proper 10A fuse in it when I replaced the tail light bulb and the 10A fuse for it, and what do you know, the next ride it blew instead.

So I put the 30A back in (I know, bad idea, but I was out of 10A fuses) and the next ride it was fine. The ride after that it was fine. I managed a few hundred miles and it was fine.

Then it blew another 10A today. So I replaced it, it blew the next one immediately as well, maybe a mile down the road.


I don't know bike electrical systems at all. If the ACC fuse is blowing with a proper 10A fuse in it, I assume that my problem lies there, and the 30A in is just kicking it to the next circuit in line? What wires should I be looking over to investigate that problem?

[Triple Jim]

Originally Posted by Aran

What wires should I be looking over to investigate that problem?

I assume you mean it blows when you try to use the brake. Any wiring, connectors, sockets, etc., that get 12v when you apply the brake could be at fault. I had a rear brake light switch fail once, so when I stepped on the pedal, the fuse would blow. It was so intermittent that I put a manual reset type circuit breaker in, instead of the fuse. That saved me buying a bunch of fuses while I was finding the problem.

[Motofool]

Welcome, Rick !!!

Stop blowing fuses!
You can use a voltmeter to locate the problem.

There is a cable which copper is intermittently touching the metal chassis before reaching a bulb.

Electricity goes from the positive of the battery to the negative via chassis without going through the load.
That means that more Amps can flow through the cable and the fuses (as many as are in series), melting the element in the fuse(s).

Look for pinched wires under the seat.

[InvisiBill]

The only thing hooked up to the ACC fuse is the aux power leads. The TAIL fuse powers all of the "running" lights - taillight (and the branches for the brake light switches), plate light, and dash illumination lights.

There's no overlap in the circuits - a problem in one can't cause the other's fuse to blow.

[Aran]

Originally Posted by InvisiBill

The only thing hooked up to the ACC fuse is the aux power leads. The TAIL fuse powers all of the "running" lights - taillight (and the branches for the brake light switches), plate light, and dash illumination lights.

There's no overlap in the circuits - a problem in one can't cause the other's fuse to blow.

Between posting this thread and today I stumbled upon the wiring diagram, not that it does much more than make my head hurt and add a little anxiety to my day, but I had that figured out, at least.


As it turns out I discovered more aftermarket wiring I had either not been told about or forgot (Likely forgot) in the front fairing, tucked in deep is a cigarette outlet. I imagine that's why the ACC fuse needed to be 30A and why it blew with less, if it was inelegantly installed.

I guess I'll have to go over every wire in the TAIL circuit until I find the short, then. I've never done anything like this before so I imagine it'll be a big ugly mess by the time I'm done.

I haven't really had a chance to do much more than park it in the back of the garage this last week and a half and today looks like the last nice day to figure it out before winter hits.

[JohnnyBravo]

I am not a fan of electrical gremlins

[Petrolh34d]

You definitely have a short somewhere. Follow the wires and see if any of them are touching the frame or possibly another wire.

[Aran]

I can't find anything out of place and it's driving me mad. I can put a new fuse in, shake the bike like mad, bounce it up and down, jiggle all the exposed wires, and it'll just keep working fine....

But then a minute later bzzt and the tail light is out and it hasn't been touched in a few minutes.

I'm considering just throwing a 10A self-resetting breaker in it and forgetting all about it.

[spent_too_much]

How about replacing the entire harness? You can find good used ones on eBay for around $15. It might be a bit tricky to remove and install, but it could solve all of you fuse frustration. Just my .02

[Aran]

Originally Posted by spent_too_much

How about replacing the entire harness? You can find good used ones on eBay for around $15. It might be a bit tricky to remove and install, but it could solve all of you fuse frustration. Just my .02

That's looking like what I might do.

Hi again, still having a headache of a time. I replaced the tail light figuring I had a short somewhere in it given the broken lens cover and some tarnishing on the bulb holder. $25 for a nice clean used unit on eBay. Cheaper than an OEM lens so I was likely to be buying that whether or not I had electrical issues.

Unfortunately my maiden voyage after letting it run and shaking it around and thinking it was good... I made it a mile before POP.

So I went out and bought a 20A circuit breaking fuse replacement, filed down the housing enough to get it to sort of fit in the space of a fuse. But my battery was dead from letting it sit another month so I had to bump start it.

It ran alright, got towards warming up and I was about to take it around the block by my house when suddenly the whole bike died, all the lights went out, and I was going about 5MPH so I tried to bump it to no avail. I stopped, put the kickstand down, and got off to look at the fuses to see if I popped the main fuse and didn't bother turning off the key. I happened to look at the dash a few seconds later before touching the fuses and the neutral light was back on, as was the oil light.

So on a whim I started rolling it in neutral, the lights went out. Stopped. The lights came back on. Rolled it, the lights went out. You can see where this is going.


So I'm no closer to solving my issue, with my own knowledge and experience. Hopefully my new data will cause someone to say "Oh yeah that sounds exactly like ___________" and voila.


Also my clutch wasn't fully disengaging in gear with the lever all the way pulled in, so I replaced the cable. I can not, for the life of me, get it to both A) Pull the clutch completely away so I can roll it smoothly in gear with the clutch in, AND B) Smoothly engage the clutch to start moving in first without jerking like I dropped it solidly.

Maybe this bike wasn't such a deal at $700 as I thought it was.

[Triple Jim]

It it was easy to get everything in perfect shape, the previous owner would have done that. Attack each problem, one at a time, and take satisfaction at each step as the bike improves.

[Aran]

Originally Posted by Triple Jim

It it was easy to get everything in perfect shape, the previous owner would have done that. Attack each problem, one at a time, and take satisfaction at each step as the bike improves.

Nah, the previous owner was getting rid of it because he bought it for his daughter, she dropped it once on gravel, and decided she didn't want to learn to ride after all and he just sold it for half of what he paid for it to get rid of it because there were already... I want to say ... five Harleys in the garage? I can't remember exactly how many but it was packed tight in one bay. He owned at least two, his wife had one, and his son had two.

None of these problems came home with it, they all started about six months in. It was scratched up and had some cracked plastic when we got it (Okay, it still does) but it ran fine, then my wife didn't take the MSF course last year, it sat for a bit, then started having issues one by one after it got knocked over once while parked when I had it out. It was just a tap and a tip over that broke a turn signal and bent a handlebar, which were quickly replaced for cheap, nothing major, so I think the issues are more coincidentally timed than resultant.


Worst part is I was hoping to get the Ninja ridable while waiting on the replacement tipover sensor that failed on my FJR so I'm at exactly zero bikes on the road for the moment.

[spent_too_much]

Is it possible, while sitting ( that you mentioned in your last post ), that a rodent could have chewed the wires, and now there is an exposed wire that is shorting out?

I know from personal experience, that you cannot bump start a 250 with a low / dead battery

At this point, it just might be less frustration to just replace the entire harness. You CAN do it. As Triple Jim stated "take one issue at a time".

[ducatiman]

Any used purchase requires the "one step at a time" outlook. No 2 bikes the same...obviously vary in needs and complexity based on both what was and was not done....I doubt the "perfect" used bike even exists.

Steps of get running, get streetable, get legal...electrical issues, tires, chain/sprockets, mechanicals...many intricacies and expenses along the way are realities.

From prior owners ..I'd almost prefer non-existent, skipped service procedures as opposed to stripped spark plugs, fasteners/parts missing,or gorilla'd.. wildly screwed up adjustments, whacked out electrical add-ons or "improvements"....something is always gonna be there to some degree.

Yessir...tackle one issue at a time. Its good for the soul, gets you intimate with the inner workings of your ride. All in all, quite satisfying when successful. Take your time, enjoy the process.

[Aran]

Originally Posted by ducatiman

Any used purchase requires the "one step at a time" outlook. No 2 bikes the same...obviously vary in needs and complexity based on both what was and was not done....I doubt the "perfect" used bike even exists.

Steps of get running, get streetable, get legal...electrical issues, tires, chain/sprockets, mechanicals...many intricacies and expenses along the way are realities.

From prior owners ..I'd almost prefer non-existent, skipped service procedures as opposed to stripped spark plugs, fasteners/parts missing,or gorilla'd.. wildly screwed up adjustments, whacked out electrical add-ons or "improvements"....something is always gonna be there to some degree.

Yessir...tackle one issue at a time. Its good for the soul, gets you intimate with the inner workings of your ride. All in all, quite satisfying when successful. Take your time, enjoy the process.

Sadly, it was perfect in all ways but cosmetic when I bought it. It's only gathered issues in the meantime. At this point I've had it for a year and a half and ~1800 miles of trouble-free-until-trouble-started riding.

Anyhow, I made a discovery today.


I decided to get a new battery as the old one was sitting on the tender and not getting enough juice to do more than crank halfheartedly then buzz (It was at least 4-5 years old I'd say, and the positive terminal looked like I was growing cauliflower on it)

So I got it all cleaned up, put the new battery in, stuck in my 20A circuit breaker that I've been taking out when the bike is off because it sticks out, and decided to take it around the block. Wheeled it out of the garage after it was warming for a good 6-7 minutes, flipped up the kickstand... whole bike died.

It killed the 30A main fuse.

Took out the 20A breaker, put in a new 30A main fuse, fired right up. Put a 10A fuse in the tail light fuse slot, ensured it was lighting the tail light, put the kickstand up again and sure enough it blew the 10A.

So I apparently have some sort of electrical crossover between the kickstand safety switch and the tail light circuit.

[DannoXYZ]

Get a voltmeter, here's one from HF for cheap: https://www.harborfreight.com/7-func...ter-90899.html

You need to trace the wiring to find the short. It's like a water-hose and there's a leak somewhere between the beginning and end. You've been playing with the end-points, while the short is in-between somewhere:

1. Using your wiring-diagram, find the wires for the tail-light and kickstand switch

2. starting at the kickstand switch, trace those wires to the other end. Look for exposed wiring with compromised insulation

3. starting at tail-light bulb socket, trace all wires to the other end, at brake-levers.

4. trace wires from brake-levers to fuse-box

You can also do use multi-meter to measure resistance between various connector-points of power-lines and ground to quickly eliminate segments of wiring as culprit. No connection (infinite resistance) is good, any connection means there's a short in that segment.

[Aran]

I had a basic one like that, but the yellow also cheap variety. I upgraded to this, or one similar https://www.walmart.com/ip/Digital-M...10709/14521541 (I think it's the exact one but the price is a couple dollars less than I paid in-store) because it started freaking out and displaying random numbers for any function when the battery started getting low and I figured instead of figuring out if it was a device problem or just low power causing it I might as well just replace it.

I also picked up two testing lights, a powered one for continuity and an unpowered basic automotive test light with red/green for positive and negative. I honestly don't know what I'm doing with either of those either.

I really ought to take advantage of the local community college's courses on electronics and the like.


Anyhow, I didn't have my phone handy on me to look up what I needed to do for proper testing so I was doing power-on voltage testing since that was the first thing that came to mind, and engine off all the circuits I tested, when powered, were showing 12.x volts, and engine on 13.x volts, which is likely a completely useless point of data.

Clipping the test light lead to a good ground, I probed the wire coming off the kickstand plug. Nada in either position. I couldn't find any visibly damaged wires but my garage is currently cramped as both of my bikes are down for electrical issues, and it's a small garage so two bikes, workbenches, shelves, etc., made it hard to get a good look.

Maybe it's time to just suck it up and pay someone else to find the problem, fix it, and explain what it was to me. I'm no good at this and I'm finding it hard to even focus on it.

[DannoXYZ]

Originally Posted by Aran

Anyhow, I didn't have my phone handy on me to look up what I needed to do for proper testing so I was doing power-on voltage testing since that was the first thing that came to mind, and engine off all the circuits I tested, when powered, were showing 12.x volts, and engine on 13.x volts, which is likely a completely useless point of data.

This is very good, you're halfway there with testing! Review this: https://www.ifixit.com/Guide/How+To+...ltimeter/25632

Now, you want to test all those +12v wire again. But this time for resistance.

1. Key OFF
2. set meter to measure resistance (ohms) on lowest scale
3. clip negative probe to ground-wire bolted to chassis

4. Trace along (look with eyeballs) every inch of each +12v wire for melted or scratched insulation. Yes, you have to slice open the loom wrapper. Poke through insulation every couple of inches with other probe. What is resistance to ground?

5. have assistant wiggle wiring when you test points in #4. Does resistance to ground change?

Ideally you have infinite resistance to ground on +12v wire with key OFF. Most meters show this as "1" or "-" or something on left of display. If there's ANY resistance displayed, 3.5, 1.2, 0.5 ohms, etc. you've got a short on that section of wire and ground. You find that short by probing for low-resistance/continuity every couple of inches along wire from one end to the other.

You're almost there. Just have to repeat this test with key OFF and measure for continuity.

[Aran]

So.



We have it ... maybe... narrowed down to the Blue/Red wire OR the Light Green wire in the main trunk as one of the culprits. We've tested just about everything that isn't wrapped tight as you can probably guess from the picture.

Traced the continuity up the right side through the Red/Blue wire all the way through and back down the left, then tracked the back side forward (What there was to track, anyhow) up to the front, and those are the only two consistently showing resistance.

My wife decided 2AM was too late to be out in the garage, especially since we originally planned to go up and get her her motorcycle learner's permit in the morning... oops, sorry Dawn if you ever read this thread. Guess we'll have to go on her next day off instead.


So tomorrow we'll start slicing into the wraps and figure out just where the problem is. Also we're taking the opportunity while it's naked to clean in the cracks and throw a better headlight bulb in (It looks to have the original OEM bulb, I want to put an XtraVision in it since I ride at night a lot, and the FJR is still down for the count at the moment and I'm itchin'.)


So that's where it stands. Watch us trace it in circles a few times before we find it.

[DannoXYZ]

This is great work!

We have it ... maybe... narrowed down to the Blue/Red wire OR the Light Green wire in the main trunk as one of the culprits.

Ok, if these have connection to ground, we can narrow down where.

1. disconnect end-points connectors of these wires to break up circuit into segments, for example

blue/red: A -- B -- C -- D

2. measure resistance to ground at connectors A, B, C

3. IF you have resistance at connectors A & B, then there's short in wire between A and B (similar with B & C segment or between C & D).

4. then you can narrow in on the sections of wire that shows a connection to ground.