What would you trackstars add?

[rasta]

I'm very interested in hitting the track next season, so I've been doing some research on causes for common crashes at the track. Here's an article I found that mentions some. Pretty obvious list. Anything you experienced trackers want to add?

Common causes of crashes

Too much throttle mid turn/exit – Probably the most common cause of track day crashes. Riders get too greedy with the throttle during the middle/exit of the turn while the bike is still leaned over.

Adding throttle and lean – This one catches a lot of riders out simply because they’re unaware that it shouldn’t be done. Trying to add more lean (while already banked over) and accelerating at the same time is a big no no.

It often comes when riders run wide mid turn or on the exit. They see they’re running wide so they add more lean while still continuing their mid turn/exit roll on. The result is the rear breaks traction because it has to deal with more cornering forces and more engine power at the same time.

Too much front brake into the turn – Not an awfully common cause of crashes, and rather than a simple case of trail braking too much it will more than likely come about because the rider overcooked the corner and held too much brake while trying to get the bike turned.

Turning and high lean angles put enough stress on the front tyre alone. To then add brakes and ask it to deal with a great deal more of the bike’s weight will only end one way if not done right.

Grabbing the front brake at high lean – Again not really a failure in technique. This crash will probably be caused by something startling the rider mid turn and causing them to grab a handful.

Going in too hot – This often comes from riders trying to be ‘last of the late brakers’ and charging into turns.

The sensations of going in too hot is a tough sensation to deal with and overcome – especially for less experienced riders who aren’t used to it – and it is this moment of panic that causes riders to do a whole manner of different things, such as grabbing too much brake while trying to turn, freezing up and running off track, or trying to make the turn and running out of ground clearance to name just a few.

Riding aggressively – Some riders feel they have to be in full attack mode to get the best out of themselves on track. This approach is only going to increase the risk of something like the above happening. A smooth, methodical approach to improving you’re riding is much better.

Target fixation – On track we go where we look, and if you can see you’re running wide and you target fixate on the outside of the track there’s only one place you’re going to end up. Trust me!

Source: http://biketrackdayshub.com/learning-from-mistakes[/URL]

[CC Cowboy]

I only know of one thing that makes riders crash, not enough experience. Don't focus on why you, or anyone else, will crash (negative focus). Focus on learning how to ride the track (positive focus).

I do know, for a fact, the more you go the better you get.

[Jiggles]

Don't try to go fast, that's how you crash.

[Alex]

Took me 6 days to get to A-group pace at T-hill. Took me 7 days til first track crash. Everything listed in your first post seems reasonable, as does CC's blanket advice.

Nobody gets signed to a GP contract based on kicking butt their first few trackdays. All you're there for is to have fun and improve your skills, at a speed (both velocity and learning-wise) that isn't possible on the street. Gradual = good. Safe = you get to come back the next week.

[alex.s]

Riding aggressively – Some riders feel they have to be in full attack mode to get the best out of themselves on track. This approach is only going to increase the risk of something like the above happening. A smooth, methodical approach to improving you’re riding is much better.

this. this is what makes crashes.

[greenaero]

I would add to avoid the dreaded rear brake lock-up and to make sure the tires are warmed up before cornering hard.

[rasta]

How'd you crash @Alex?

[ally99]

Hmm, hitting gator rumbles at full-lean is a no-no. Stand her up first.
Look where you want to go, as far ahead as possible, but I did learn at Little Tally there's a such thing as looking TOO far in and missing a turn-in point (which is how I ended up outside on the rumble).

[csmith12]

Another good reason, simply stated as "cart before the horse". How many times have you heard the following; "You don't need to get off the seat until hard parts are dragging". I will be honest, while that is technically true, why risk it? At least get a "clue" of the skills before you need them and NOT after they are the reason you crashed.

Link to original page on Vimeo.

At the very end you can see a line in the tarmac from dragging a rearset as it lifted a wheel. He also hung on to a fault, the bike drug him right back into the race line. Not good at all.

Bonus: Why did the following rider run off?

[rasta]

Originally Posted by csmith12

Bonus: Why did the following rider run off?

He/she was watching the guy crash?

[csmith12]

Originally Posted by rasta

He/she was watching the guy crash?

100% right

[rasta]

That sounds like a tough reflex to resist. Human nature to want to look at someone/thing crash

[ally99]

Gotta fight it. I'll never forget coming around Barber's most technical turn (corner 5), and a rider crashed and his bike kept going in unpredictable circular spiral patterns all over the track in front of me. Somehow I didn't target fixate and altered my line no problem. It was definitely a confidence builder because I often wondered the same thing...would I be able to overcome that immediately strong desire to look?

Edit: I also got lucky by choosing the right side of the track. It was hard to tell which direction the bike was going to go next. I had never seen anything like it!

[A.R.K.]

I would add poor body position to the list. Poor BP will exaggerate all the other mentioned.

[Alex]

Originally Posted by rasta

How'd you crash @Alex?

Painfully.

















Same reason for virtually all of my get-offs over the past 15 years. Fortunately there haven't been that many, but all but one were caused by losing the rear under power. That one at Thunderhill was at a place on the track that is quite interesting (T9), with a blind corner over a rise, with strong acceleration necessary right past the corner to get decent drive into T10. I was spinning the rear up there pretty consistently when the bike unweights over that rise. I was slightly off-line to avoid a slower rider, but with the same lean angle and throttle; I lost the rear faster than I could catch it and ended up sliding down the entire hill on my butt. News flash #1 - it's great fun to leave darkies on corner exit, and it's surprisingly easy to do even on a 600 at speed, let alone a liter bike. News flash #2 - if you find yourself doing that repeatedly, it's not a sign of bike control; rather it's more likely a sign of impatient throttle control.

It's interesting, because I'm always more concerned about the front than the rear, with the belief that if I can get the front to stick, the rear will have more than enough, and it's easier to catch anyway. But when it comes to my get-offs (including the one rojo was present for), it's always been more throttle than advised for the current conditions/ bike attitude.

[csmith12]

Originally Posted by ally99

Gotta fight it.

Originally Posted by rasta

That sounds like a tough reflex to resist. Human nature to want to look at someone/thing crash

AssfaultJunkies @ Putnam Park Sept. 2012 rain, rain, rain and more rain. 5 riders binned it right in front of me that day. Motoseries @ Putnam Park Oct. 2013 rain, rain, rain. Watched 3 riders go down in front of me that day, including iZapps son Zack.

Keep up the good fight, I just got a lot of practice at it.

[iZapp]

Originally Posted by greenaero

I would add to avoid the dreaded rear brake lock-up and to make sure the tires are warmed up before cornering hard.

rear brake? really? forget about the fricking rear brake. drain the fluid. take the pads out. whatever. do NOT EVEN consider the back brake as a novice (or intermediate, or wannabe advanced rider).

listen, as a novice rider 1/2 of the OP's list doesnt even apply - you're simply not pushing the bike anywhere near hard enough to approach the limit of adhesion between the track and tire especially on a little bike like a 250. i would venture a guess that 90% of all novice crashes occur because of a combination of miscalculation of approach speed to a turn (ie, braking too late or not hard enough) and not having the confidence to follow through the turn. the result is either standing the bike up and running off track, or checking up and tucking the front end.

my best advice, dont focus on how LATE you can brake, but instead (this is from the Parker or Code book, i forget) focus on slowing down to the speed that you feel is correct for the corner, even if it means braking a bit early and not as hard. true speed will come from what you can carry through the turns; getting all hot and bothered about optimized braking is just unnecessary stress at this level of riding and really doesnt impact your lap time as much as you'd think.

[csmith12]

@iZapp - How you guys doing? Well I hope?

[rasta]

Originally Posted by iZapp

rear brake? really? forget about the fricking rear brake. drain the fluid. take the pads out. whatever. do NOT EVEN consider the back brake as a novice (or intermediate, or wannabe advanced rider).

listen, as a novice rider 1/2 of the OP's list doesnt even apply - you're simply not pushing the bike anywhere near hard enough to approach the limit of adhesion between the track and tire especially on a little bike like a 250. i would venture a guess that 90% of all novice crashes occur because of a combination of miscalculation of approach speed to a turn (ie, braking too late or not hard enough) and not having the confidence to follow through the turn. the result is either standing the bike up and running off track, or checking up and tucking the front end.

my best advice, dont focus on how LATE you can brake, but instead (this is from the Parker or Code book, i forget) focus on slowing down to the speed that you feel is correct for the corner, even if it means braking a bit early and not as hard. true speed will come from what you can carry through the turns; getting all hot and bothered about optimized braking is just unnecessary stress at this level of riding and really doesnt impact your lap time as much as you'd think.

Good advice

Trail braking is definitely not something I was even considering at this point

[CC Cowboy]

Originally Posted by iZapp

rear brake? really? forget about the fricking rear brake. drain the fluid. take the pads out. whatever. do NOT EVEN consider the back brake as a novice (or intermediate, or wannabe advanced rider).

listen, as a novice rider 1/2 of the OP's list doesnt even apply - you're simply not pushing the bike anywhere near hard enough to approach the limit of adhesion between the track and tire especially on a little bike like a 250. i would venture a guess that 90% of all novice crashes occur because of a combination of miscalculation of approach speed to a turn (ie, braking too late or not hard enough) and not having the confidence to follow through the turn. the result is either standing the bike up and running off track, or checking up and tucking the front end.

my best advice, dont focus on how LATE you can brake, but instead (this is from the Parker or Code book, i forget) focus on slowing down to the speed that you feel is correct for the corner, even if it means braking a bit early and not as hard. true speed will come from what you can carry through the turns; getting all hot and bothered about optimized braking is just unnecessary stress at this level of riding and really doesnt impact your lap time as much as you'd think.

A smart man once said, "in slow, out fast"

[alex.s]

Originally Posted by CC Cowboy

"in slow, out fast"

that could be applied to quite a variety of circumstances. on and off the track.

[alex.s]

Originally Posted by Alex

Painfully.

come on, where's the video!

[jkv45]

Originally Posted by iZapp

rear brake? really? forget about the fricking rear brake. drain the fluid. take the pads out. whatever. do NOT EVEN consider the back brake as a novice (or intermediate, or wannabe advanced rider).

listen, as a novice rider 1/2 of the OP's list doesnt even apply - you're simply not pushing the bike anywhere near hard enough to approach the limit of adhesion between the track and tire especially on a little bike like a 250. i would venture a guess that 90% of all novice crashes occur because of a combination of miscalculation of approach speed to a turn (ie, braking too late or not hard enough) and not having the confidence to follow through the turn. the result is either standing the bike up and running off track, or checking up and tucking the front end.

my best advice, dont focus on how LATE you can brake, but instead (this is from the Parker or Code book, i forget) focus on slowing down to the speed that you feel is correct for the corner, even if it means braking a bit early and not as hard. true speed will come from what you can carry through the turns; getting all hot and bothered about optimized braking is just unnecessary stress at this level of riding and really doesnt impact your lap time as much as you'd think.

I personally agree - never use it on the street or track. Some very good riders do use it, but in a very subtle way to make small corrections.

There are plenty of really fast guys that don't use it. Kevin Schwantz has said that he never did. With hot tires and hard braking from the front there isn't much, if any, braking available from the rear.

Not using it simplifies your life as a new track rider.

As far as trying to go fast and "attack", even Kenny Roberts said he could only mentally hold a full-on race pace for 3 or 4 laps. If you listen to Marc or Lorenzo they will only "attack" at certain times when the timing is right.

Without many exceptions (other than Marquez), smooth (like Lorenzo), is usually the fastest.

[rasta]

Originally Posted by alex.s

come on, where's the video!

[iZapp]

Originally Posted by csmith12

@iZapp - How you guys doing? Well I hope?

dude we are SERIOUSLY jonesing for some riding!... checking all the TD websites daily for the 14 schedules to come out... only 4 more months.... Barber baby! might be passing the 600 on to the kid this year.

[ally99]

Don't use it on the track. Even though I love it on the street, I never touch it at the track.

[alex.s]

i use it in the pits... :-P

[ally99]

Originally Posted by alex.s

i use it in the pits... :-P

Me too! Lol!
But do you really? I thought you never used the rear.

[csmith12]

Originally Posted by iZapp

dude we are SERIOUSLY jonesing for some riding!... checking all the TD websites daily for the 14 schedules to come out... only 4 more months.... Barber baby! might be passing the 600 on to the kid this year.

I feel that, a few of us here as well as a mob of Junkies are hitting up Jennings in Feb. you guys should join us. Gunna be rollin' in 20+ deep. Oh, saying no is not really an option.

Hope ya'll have a merry xmas too and tell Zach I said hi.

[alex.s]

Originally Posted by ally99

Me too! Lol!
But do you really? I thought you never used the rear.

i've been trying to use it more, but when push comes to shove, it has no room in my skill book. when i'm not pushing though i like to use the rear a little bit while i'm slowing down and shifting cause it helps eliminate some of the chain jerk i get when i do the weird half clutch upshift i always do

[ally99]

I agree. I've started using it more over the past year most of the time when I'm stopping on the street b/c it smooths out my stops a bit, but I never use it when I'm hard braking.