ninjette.org

Go Back   ninjette.org > 1986 - 2007 Ninja 250R > 1986 - 2007 Ninja 250R Tech Talk

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old December 10th, 2018, 07:07 AM   #81
jkv45
Rev Limiter
 
jkv45's Avatar
 
Name: Jay
Location: WI
Join Date: Jul 2013

Motorcycle(s): '06 SV650n, '00 Derbi GPR, '64 CA77 Dream 305, '70 CL450 Scrambler, numerous dirt bikes

Posts: A lot.
MOTM - Jun '18, Oct '16
You'd be surprised at how well an 11 year old carbed 250 car run when properly tuned.

I wouldn't stop at acceptable. Do a carb sync and fine adjustment of the idle mixture and go from acceptable to optimum.
jkv45 is offline   Reply With Quote


1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.


Old December 10th, 2018, 11:22 AM   #82
Triple Jim
Guy Who Enjoys Riding
 
Triple Jim's Avatar
 
Name: Jim
Location: North Carolina
Join Date: Jul 2016

Motorcycle(s): Ninja 250

Posts: A lot.
MOTM - Oct '18, Aug '17, Aug '16
Quote:
Originally Posted by jkv45 View Post
You'd be surprised at how well an 11 year old carbed 250 car run when properly tuned.
My 2005 Ninja 250 is the newest vehicle I own, and they all run very well.
Triple Jim is offline   Reply With Quote


Old December 10th, 2018, 01:34 PM   #83
DannoXYZ
ninjette.org certified postwhore
 
Name: AKA JacRyann
Location: Mesa, AZ
Join Date: Dec 2011

Motorcycle(s): CB125T CBR250R-MC19 CBR250RR-MC22 NSR350R-MC21 VF500F CBR600RR SFV650 VFR750F R1M ST1300PA Valkyrie-F6C

Posts: A lot.
MOTY - 2018, MOTM - Nov '17
What a bunch of geezers! I like going out at 6am with temps in 30s and pushing start-button on my bike and have it Vrrrooom to life in less than 1 crank. Then being able to hop on and ride off without single hiccup in less than 15-seconds after that (how long it takes to put helmet & gloves on). I'm converting my 250 to EFI this winter so it will be civilised!

Carefully check rubber boots between engine & carb. They can have small cracks (or loose clamps) that will suck in extra air and cause temperamental idle.

Also do compression-test, you may have worn-out rings and/or valves that can cause difference between cylinders; resulting in lumpy idle.

Run a bottle of PEA-based cleaner through 2-tanks of gas (1/2 each). Such as Techron Concentrate or Red Line SI-1. Then repeat compression-test and see if there's improvement.
DannoXYZ is offline   Reply With Quote


Old December 10th, 2018, 01:42 PM   #84
jkv45
Rev Limiter
 
jkv45's Avatar
 
Name: Jay
Location: WI
Join Date: Jul 2013

Motorcycle(s): '06 SV650n, '00 Derbi GPR, '64 CA77 Dream 305, '70 CL450 Scrambler, numerous dirt bikes

Posts: A lot.
MOTM - Jun '18, Oct '16
Quote:
Originally Posted by DannoXYZ View Post
What a bunch of geezers! I like going out at 6am with temps in 30s and pushing start-button on my bike and have it Vrrrooom to life in less than 1 crank. Then being able to hop on and ride off without single hiccup in less than 15-seconds after that (how long it takes to put helmet & gloves on). I'm converting my 250 to EFI this winter so it will be civilised!
Hey - I resemble that comment!

I didn't know you had "winter" in SF. Anything is possible out there I guess...
jkv45 is offline   Reply With Quote


Old December 10th, 2018, 04:21 PM   #85
DannoXYZ
ninjette.org certified postwhore
 
Name: AKA JacRyann
Location: Mesa, AZ
Join Date: Dec 2011

Motorcycle(s): CB125T CBR250R-MC19 CBR250RR-MC22 NSR350R-MC21 VF500F CBR600RR SFV650 VFR750F R1M ST1300PA Valkyrie-F6C

Posts: A lot.
MOTY - 2018, MOTM - Nov '17
Heh, heh... it's occasionally normal here...



DannoXYZ is offline   Reply With Quote


Old December 12th, 2018, 01:49 PM   #86
dodgerdad
ninjette.org guru
 
dodgerdad's Avatar
 
Name: Hector
Location: SoCal
Join Date: Sep 2018

Motorcycle(s): 2007 Ninja 250

Posts: 272
Video

So I had a chance to fire it up cold this morning and just as I dreaded (but expected) it ran horrible. I shot a quick video which shows the initial start up.

I had the choke open and still had to gently give it a tiny bit of throttle so it wouldn't stall, but not too much or it would bog out. Towards the end of the video you can see I close the choke and it doesn't help, in fact it stalls.

After the video, I kept helping it along with the choke open and once it reached almost normal operating temperature it idled and ran just fine.

Other than the idle speed adjustment, I haven't touched the carbs since their servicing.

Barring someone pointing out a smoking gun, I'll do a carb sync next week. If that doesn't fully resolve the issue I plan to slap on the fairings and list it over the Christmas break.

Here's a link to the video so you can see her in all her shi**y splendor:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aOCl6hj-5M0
__________________________________________________
When you see me, it's already too late.
dodgerdad is offline   Reply With Quote


Old December 12th, 2018, 02:06 PM   #87
Triple Jim
Guy Who Enjoys Riding
 
Triple Jim's Avatar
 
Name: Jim
Location: North Carolina
Join Date: Jul 2016

Motorcycle(s): Ninja 250

Posts: A lot.
MOTM - Oct '18, Aug '17, Aug '16
I could be wrong, but it looks like you didn't have the lever fully in the start position anywhere in the video (lever all the way toward you). Then you put it back to the warm-run position while it was still cold.

Also, there's an easy to adjust knob for idle speed adjustment down by the carb on the left side, so you can adjust that to raise the idle speed any time you need to.

These little engines normally warm up in the 1,500 to 3,000 rpm range, not chugging along at 1,000.
Triple Jim is offline   Reply With Quote


Old December 12th, 2018, 02:21 PM   #88
dodgerdad
ninjette.org guru
 
dodgerdad's Avatar
 
Name: Hector
Location: SoCal
Join Date: Sep 2018

Motorcycle(s): 2007 Ninja 250

Posts: 272
Quote:
Originally Posted by Triple Jim View Post
I could be wrong, but it looks like you didn't have the lever fully in the start position anywhere in the video (lever all the way toward you). Then you put it back to the warm-run position while it was still cold.

Also, there's an easy to adjust knob for idle speed adjustment down by the carb on the left side, so you can adjust that to raise the idle speed any time you need to.

These little engines normally warm up in the 1,500 to 3,000 rpm range, not chugging along at 1,000.
The lever was all the way forward, I'll double check the linkage to make sure everything is sitting right.

As for the idle speed knob, I set it when the bike was up to temperature a couple days ago. One shouldn't have to advance the idle with this knob every time it's started cold.

And yes, in the video I did close the choke when it was still cold, understandably it cut out.
__________________________________________________
When you see me, it's already too late.
dodgerdad is offline   Reply With Quote


Old December 12th, 2018, 02:27 PM   #89
Triple Jim
Guy Who Enjoys Riding
 
Triple Jim's Avatar
 
Name: Jim
Location: North Carolina
Join Date: Jul 2016

Motorcycle(s): Ninja 250

Posts: A lot.
MOTM - Oct '18, Aug '17, Aug '16
All the way forward is the warm-run position, no enrichment. When you start it cold, it will need to be toward you.

The idle speed knob is there for a reason. Depending on conditions, you may need to adjust it. I occasionally make an adjustment to mine, especially if it's cold out.

You're saying you "closed the choke", which implies you enriched the mixture, but I think you meant the opposite, as in "closed the enricher plungers".
Triple Jim is offline   Reply With Quote


Old December 12th, 2018, 02:35 PM   #90
dodgerdad
ninjette.org guru
 
dodgerdad's Avatar
 
Name: Hector
Location: SoCal
Join Date: Sep 2018

Motorcycle(s): 2007 Ninja 250

Posts: 272
Right, towards me when starting it cold, away once it's at temp.
__________________________________________________
When you see me, it's already too late.
dodgerdad is offline   Reply With Quote


Old December 12th, 2018, 02:46 PM   #91
jkv45
Rev Limiter
 
jkv45's Avatar
 
Name: Jay
Location: WI
Join Date: Jul 2013

Motorcycle(s): '06 SV650n, '00 Derbi GPR, '64 CA77 Dream 305, '70 CL450 Scrambler, numerous dirt bikes

Posts: A lot.
MOTM - Jun '18, Oct '16
Use enough choke to keep the revs about 2000 to 2500 for a minute or so, then back it down as much as possible while still keeping the RPMs over the normal idle speed of 1300.

It's no surprise it won't idle cold without any "choke". Use the choke to keep it running when it's cold.

You are getting close. Sync the carbs and adjust the idle mixture and you should be good unless there are other issues - but I don't see any right now.
jkv45 is offline   Reply With Quote


Old December 12th, 2018, 02:59 PM   #92
dodgerdad
ninjette.org guru
 
dodgerdad's Avatar
 
Name: Hector
Location: SoCal
Join Date: Sep 2018

Motorcycle(s): 2007 Ninja 250

Posts: 272
Quote:
Originally Posted by Triple Jim View Post
I could be wrong, but it looks like you didn't have the lever fully in the start position anywhere in the video (lever all the way toward you). Then you put it back to the warm-run position while it was still cold.

Also, there's an easy to adjust knob for idle speed adjustment down by the carb on the left side, so you can adjust that to raise the idle speed any time you need to.

These little engines normally warm up in the 1,500 to 3,000 rpm range, not chugging along at 1,000.
Just confirmed, linkage/cable is properly installed and actuated by lever.
__________________________________________________
When you see me, it's already too late.

Last futzed with by dodgerdad; December 12th, 2018 at 02:59 PM. Reason: typo
dodgerdad is offline   Reply With Quote


Old December 12th, 2018, 03:00 PM   #93
dodgerdad
ninjette.org guru
 
dodgerdad's Avatar
 
Name: Hector
Location: SoCal
Join Date: Sep 2018

Motorcycle(s): 2007 Ninja 250

Posts: 272
Quote:
Originally Posted by jkv45 View Post
Use enough choke to keep the revs about 2000 to 2500 for a minute or so, then back it down as much as possible while still keeping the RPMs over the normal idle speed of 1300.

It's no surprise it won't idle cold without any "choke". Use the choke to keep it running when it's cold.

You are getting close. Sync the carbs and adjust the idle mixture and you should be good unless there are other issues - but I don't see any right now.
Well that's the problem (now), it won't idle above 1000 when cold...
__________________________________________________
When you see me, it's already too late.
dodgerdad is offline   Reply With Quote


Old December 12th, 2018, 03:02 PM   #94
Triple Jim
Guy Who Enjoys Riding
 
Triple Jim's Avatar
 
Name: Jim
Location: North Carolina
Join Date: Jul 2016

Motorcycle(s): Ninja 250

Posts: A lot.
MOTM - Oct '18, Aug '17, Aug '16
I'm still not sure you're getting the lever all the way toward you when starting. In the video it was not all the way, but as I said, maybe you had it there earlier. The last part will really raise the idle.

edit: I just checked the video again. At the very beginning, the starter lever was not all the way toward you, which explains why is was running so slowly.
Triple Jim is offline   Reply With Quote


Old December 12th, 2018, 04:43 PM   #95
dodgerdad
ninjette.org guru
 
dodgerdad's Avatar
 
Name: Hector
Location: SoCal
Join Date: Sep 2018

Motorcycle(s): 2007 Ninja 250

Posts: 272
Quote:
Originally Posted by Triple Jim View Post
I'm still not sure you're getting the lever all the way toward you when starting. In the video it was not all the way, but as I said, maybe you had it there earlier. The last part will really raise the idle.

edit: I just checked the video again. At the very beginning, the starter lever was not all the way toward you, which explains why is was running so slowly.
Skeptically, I went out there and made sure the choke lever was all the way towards me, and it started. It won't idle past 1300 (when cold) unless I play with the accelerator, which is weird because after a few seconds you usually have to push the lever back a bit so it's not revving too HIGH while it warms up.

At any rate, you were right about the lever, thanks. I think I'll have time Friday or Saturday to do the sync.
__________________________________________________
When you see me, it's already too late.
dodgerdad is offline   Reply With Quote


Old December 12th, 2018, 07:42 PM   #96
DannoXYZ
ninjette.org certified postwhore
 
Name: AKA JacRyann
Location: Mesa, AZ
Join Date: Dec 2011

Motorcycle(s): CB125T CBR250R-MC19 CBR250RR-MC22 NSR350R-MC21 VF500F CBR600RR SFV650 VFR750F R1M ST1300PA Valkyrie-F6C

Posts: A lot.
MOTY - 2018, MOTM - Nov '17
What's ambient temperature there when you started bike for video?

When it's below 45F here, mine won't even start with choke full-on. It'll spin for 5-revs, then stop. I have repeatedly start it over and over again. After 6th time, it'll stay on, put-put-putting around 200-rpms for about 2-minutes.

After that it picks up and stays at about 1000-rpms for about a minute. Then it goes up to 2000-2500rpms after another minute. So about 4-minutes of choke before I can release choke 1/2-way and ride off.
DannoXYZ is offline   Reply With Quote


Old December 12th, 2018, 10:25 PM   #97
dodgerdad
ninjette.org guru
 
dodgerdad's Avatar
 
Name: Hector
Location: SoCal
Join Date: Sep 2018

Motorcycle(s): 2007 Ninja 250

Posts: 272
Quote:
Originally Posted by DannoXYZ View Post
What's ambient temperature there when you started bike for video?

When it's below 45F here, mine won't even start with choke full-on. It'll spin for 5-revs, then stop. I have repeatedly start it over and over again. After 6th time, it'll stay on, put-put-putting around 200-rpms for about 2-minutes.

After that it picks up and stays at about 1000-rpms for about a minute. Then it goes up to 2000-2500rpms after another minute. So about 4-minutes of choke before I can release choke 1/2-way and ride off.
It was 59 degrees when I did the video.
__________________________________________________
When you see me, it's already too late.
dodgerdad is offline   Reply With Quote


Old December 15th, 2018, 04:14 PM   #98
ducatiman
ninjette.org certified postwhore
 
ducatiman's Avatar
 
Name: Gordon
Location: new york
Join Date: Sep 2009

Motorcycle(s): '95 DUCATI 900SS/SP '07 DUCATI SS800 '19 HONDA CBR650R

Posts: A lot.
MOTM - Nov '18, Mar '17
at around the 35 second mark, you should begin *sequentially* backing off the choke, while applying throttle.

Prior to that in the video...I'm hearing an engine favoring 1 cylinder over the other.

By the one minute mark you should have been OFF the choke and ON some throttle, till it wants to idle on its own with no throttle input at all.

i'm thinking you need to up the idle adjustment a bit.

Where does it idle at when warmed?

You earlier stated you performed a valve adjustment, what were your findings?
And solutions? You are SURE you performed checks at the precise cam positions?
__________________________________________________
gordon@customcarbservices.com
Custom Carb Service
www.customcarbservices.com
ducatiman is offline   Reply With Quote


1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
Old December 17th, 2018, 07:23 AM   #99
dodgerdad
ninjette.org guru
 
dodgerdad's Avatar
 
Name: Hector
Location: SoCal
Join Date: Sep 2018

Motorcycle(s): 2007 Ninja 250

Posts: 272
Quote:
Originally Posted by ducatiman View Post
at around the 35 second mark, you should begin *sequentially* backing off the choke, while applying throttle.

Prior to that in the video...I'm hearing an engine favoring 1 cylinder over the other.

By the one minute mark you should have been OFF the choke and ON some throttle, till it wants to idle on its own with no throttle input at all.

i'm thinking you need to up the idle adjustment a bit.

Where does it idle at when warmed?

You earlier stated you performed a valve adjustment, what were your findings?
And solutions? You are SURE you performed checks at the precise cam positions?
The bike doesn't start (with the choke) at a high RPM like it did in the past and like my previous carbureted bikes have done. Typically the RPM's jump up and you have to start backing down the choke so it doesn't rev too high but my bike barely runs. It'll bog if I give it any less than the slightest bit of throttle when cold.

I haven't sync'd it yet but did adjust the air mixture which really smoothed out the deceleration quite nicely as it was hanging before. When it's warmed up it runs great, it will idle at 1700 (or 1300 about 25% of the time), one or the other, without much fluctuation.

I adjusted the valves as per the wiki instructions which are pretty clear. What I found is that all the valve clearances where a bit too tight. I didn't take note as to what the prior gaps were.
__________________________________________________
When you see me, it's already too late.
dodgerdad is offline   Reply With Quote


Old December 17th, 2018, 08:04 AM   #100
jkv45
Rev Limiter
 
jkv45's Avatar
 
Name: Jay
Location: WI
Join Date: Jul 2013

Motorcycle(s): '06 SV650n, '00 Derbi GPR, '64 CA77 Dream 305, '70 CL450 Scrambler, numerous dirt bikes

Posts: A lot.
MOTM - Jun '18, Oct '16
Quote:
Originally Posted by dodgerdad View Post
I haven't sync'd it yet but did adjust the air mixture which really smoothed out the deceleration quite nicely as it was hanging before. When it's warmed up it runs great, it will idle at 1700 (or 1300 about 25% of the time), one or the other, without much fluctuation.
You may have a vacuum leak somewhere.
jkv45 is offline   Reply With Quote


Old December 17th, 2018, 08:37 AM   #101
Triple Jim
Guy Who Enjoys Riding
 
Triple Jim's Avatar
 
Name: Jim
Location: North Carolina
Join Date: Jul 2016

Motorcycle(s): Ninja 250

Posts: A lot.
MOTM - Oct '18, Aug '17, Aug '16
Feel the head pipes when you first start it and see if they warm up equally, or if one warms up faster than the other, or if one stays cold.
Triple Jim is offline   Reply With Quote


Old December 17th, 2018, 11:57 AM   #102
dodgerdad
ninjette.org guru
 
dodgerdad's Avatar
 
Name: Hector
Location: SoCal
Join Date: Sep 2018

Motorcycle(s): 2007 Ninja 250

Posts: 272
Quote:
Originally Posted by Triple Jim View Post
Feel the head pipes when you first start it and see if they warm up equally, or if one warms up faster than the other, or if one stays cold.
OK, I can even borrow a digital laser thermometer. If they warm up unevenly, what will that indicate??
__________________________________________________
When you see me, it's already too late.
dodgerdad is offline   Reply With Quote


Old December 17th, 2018, 01:49 PM   #103
Triple Jim
Guy Who Enjoys Riding
 
Triple Jim's Avatar
 
Name: Jim
Location: North Carolina
Join Date: Jul 2016

Motorcycle(s): Ninja 250

Posts: A lot.
MOTM - Oct '18, Aug '17, Aug '16
It will tell you that both cylinders are firing, and that the carbs are at least pretty closely synced.

In the video, it seems like maybe one cylinder is weak or not firing at all. Feeling the pipes when you first start it will tell you right away if one cylinder is not doing its job.
Triple Jim is offline   Reply With Quote


Old December 17th, 2018, 08:20 PM   #104
dodgerdad
ninjette.org guru
 
dodgerdad's Avatar
 
Name: Hector
Location: SoCal
Join Date: Sep 2018

Motorcycle(s): 2007 Ninja 250

Posts: 272
Quote:
Originally Posted by Triple Jim View Post
It will tell you that both cylinders are firing, and that the carbs are at least pretty closely synced.

In the video, it seems like maybe one cylinder is weak or not firing at all. Feeling the pipes when you first start it will tell you right away if one cylinder is not doing its job.
Seems simple enough, I'll try it. Does it make sense that a cylinder would miss but only when cold and then always run fine when warm and riding around? I put 40 miles on it yesterday and it ran fine.
__________________________________________________
When you see me, it's already too late.
dodgerdad is offline   Reply With Quote


Old December 18th, 2018, 07:10 AM   #105
Triple Jim
Guy Who Enjoys Riding
 
Triple Jim's Avatar
 
Name: Jim
Location: North Carolina
Join Date: Jul 2016

Motorcycle(s): Ninja 250

Posts: A lot.
MOTM - Oct '18, Aug '17, Aug '16
Does it make sense? To quote Kwai Chang Caine, "When you cease to strive to understand, then you will know without understanding."
Triple Jim is offline   Reply With Quote


Reply




Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
FS: Motion Pro Syncpro Carb Tuner (Carb Sync) $60 Shipped menikmati Motorcycle-related 4 April 8th, 2020 12:39 AM
[motogp.com] - Home race frustration for Redding Ninjette Newsbot Motorcycling News 0 September 5th, 2016 01:44 AM
Valve adjustment, carb clean, carb sync? amad1972 1986 - 2007 Ninja 250R Tech Talk 2 July 29th, 2014 09:42 PM
[visordown.com] - Frustration for Haslam after teammate does the double Ninjette Newsbot Motorcycling News 0 May 11th, 2014 11:10 AM
Exerting Frustration Through Memes Jiggles Off-Topic 12 September 5th, 2012 02:41 PM


Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


Motorcycle Safety Foundation

All times are GMT -7. The time now is 01:08 AM.


Website uptime monitoring Host-tracker.com
Powered by vBulletin®
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
User Alert System provided by Advanced User Tagging (Lite) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2024 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.
Except where otherwise noted, all site contents are © Copyright 2022 ninjette.org, All rights reserved.