Brakes and Service?

[TBC]

Hi guys! Just two quick things.

First, my bike's brakes aren't feeling great. Stopping distance seems increased and I don't feel as much of a response on either lever. When I had the bike inspected last month, the guy said the rotors should be replaced before next year, but I'm not sure what he was looking at. Any tips or things to check for for the whole braking system? I'm really not sure what to look at.

Second, the valves seem to be getting further out of adjustment (or at least, that's what it sounds like). The bike is approximately 1200 miles away from the 6k service. Should I start putting money into fixing it up right now, or should I wait until the service is due?

Thanks for any advice!

[Motofool]

Does the bike has only 4800 miles?

[TBC]

Originally Posted by Motofool

Does the bike has only 4800 miles?

Yup.

[Motofool]

The rotors of a 8 years old bike with that mileage should be close to new.

If the pads have disintegrated due to some chemical exposure, you may be dragging the steel of the pads against the rotors, doing some damage.

You may have some internal rusting going on if the fluid is still original, since the fluid degrades in around two years and should be fully replaced.

Valves tend to make less noise when the service time is close.
I suspect the cam chain tensioner is dry and some lubrication may help.

I would service the brakes right away:

http://faq.ninja250.org/wiki/Brakes

[OldTimer]

You may have to bleed the brakes and put fresh brake fluid in the systems. When you squeeze the brake lever or mash down on the rear brake pedal the fluid is pushed into the calipers and that moves the pads onto the disc/rotor. The friction between the pads and the disc/rotor creates heat. That heat is transferred back into the brake fluid. The fluid can get so hot it boils and burns turning dark in color instead of the clear liquid it once was. Just like when you burn something you are cooking on the stove, that black residue stays in your brake lines and can clog things up. You should replace your brake fluid at least once a year. On my old race bikes I would change the fluid after just a couple of races. It heats up and cooks the fluid quickly when you're late braking into corners hard on the binders lap after lap. Street riding isn't that bad but if traffic is heavy on your commute you can put a lot of stress on the brake fluid. Try flushing out the old fluid with new...

[csmith12]

Hey Nick, start an intro thread. Always cool to chat with track guys.

OP: Good luck on your brakes Dave! Your in good hands here.

[TBC]

Thanks for the help everyone! I really appreciate it.

Hernan - I priced out some stuff, and it looks like it would be dead cheap to flush and replace the brake fluid, but a bit pricey to replace the pads ($70+), and even more to upgrade the lines to stainless steel ($110+). Is there any way to check on the condition of the pads without much wrenching? And if I weren't to upgrade to the stainless lines, how much would replacement (rubber) lines run?

Thanks again!

[Motofool]

For the how-to, just read through the link above.

If money is short, make little steps and see if you have some improvements.
Work on one brake at a time, so you have at least a mediocre back up brake.

The brakes' mechanism is simple: your hand and foot pumps some hydraulic pressure into the fluid, which pushes against the back of the pistons and seals.

The seals are supposed to keep the fluid inside and the dust and grime out, so the pistons can slide smoothly within the bored cast caliper.

Pistons put pressure on the steel plate of the pads and the friction material puts pressure on the rotors, creating resistive friction.

As you have explained, that resistive friction has been decreasing lately: there may be two main reasons for that:
1) The friction material has been damaged or contaminated or worn out.
2) The pistons can't slide freely.

Causes:
Fluid deteriorates as explained above, and absorbs humidity, which tends to rust internal steel parts, mainly the pistons.
Pitted pistons and external solidified grime damages seals and limits piston's movement.
Damaged seals allow humidity in and fluid out, which can contaminate the pads.

Pads slide on steel guides that should be lubricated.
When lubrication fails and grime accumulates, the free movement of the pads, back and forth against the rotor is compromised.

Rubber hoses get softer, requiring more lever movement to reach good hydraulic pressure (feel becomes more springy).
They can also release rubber particles into the fluid that may work against free movement.

As you see, periodic flushing, disassemble, cleaning and lubrication is key for a healthy system.
Only you can discover what is not working properly in yours.

[AlexL]

Front pads are $25 from motorcycle superstore. They do most of the stopping and are probably more worn than the rear. You can check your pads by looking at them. Are they thin? If you can't tell post a good picture and we'll tell you.

If your rubber lines are in good shape then there is no point in replacing them. Do the front pads and flush your fluid and you're bound to notice an improvement.

[Solunatic]

My money's on needing new fluid/bleeding the lines. Which costs exactly the same as one bottle of brake fluid. i didn't think my fluid was that bad until i replaced it.. stopping power went up substantially!

[dirty nasty]

Start by bleeding the lines. If it doesn't feel better take the calipers apart and clean them and grease the pins. If that doesn't cure anything look to your pads. If your pads are good inspect your caliper pistons aren't getting stuck and seals condition. They should be cleaned somewhat regularly. If that doesn't work then try new lines made of stainless steel.

Your rotors aren't bad. No way.

[TBC]

Originally Posted by Solunatic

My money's on needing new fluid/bleeding the lines. Which costs exactly the same as one bottle of brake fluid. i didn't think my fluid was that bad until i replaced it.. stopping power went up substantially!

That plus the hose for the job and the wrench to open the bleeder valve .

Thanks again for all of the advice - I ended up replacing the brake fluid in both brakes. Stopping power and response is significantly improved, though the front brake lever still has more give than I would like. Oh well - I think I'll ride it like this until the end of the season, and then take time over the winter for all of the various mods/tweaks I want to apply.

[Solunatic]

Yeah, even with new pads, fresh fluid and bleeding a whole bottle through just the front the lever never gets to the feel i want. Not like I'm lacking stopping power, but I just like the feel of the brakes on supersports. Next fluid change, SS lines are happening for sure.

[choneofakind]

SS lines + DOT5.1 + Vesrah pads = 100-60 very quickly at Mid-Ohio Those things work even better with heat in them. All business.

[Solunatic]

Originally Posted by choneofakind

SS lines + DOT5.1 + Vesrah pads = 100-60 very quickly at Mid-Ohio Those things work even better with heat in them. All business.

I thought we could only run DOT 3 or 4 in our brake systems. Do the SS lines allow us to use DOT 5? is DOT 5.1 different?

[choneofakind]

DOT 3 and 4 are fine. DOT 5.1 is fine. DOT5.1 has a higher boiling point. DOT3 and 4 work just fine in your ninja as well though

DOT 5 is not ok.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DOT5.1

[Motofool]

What your experience with those pads has been, Chris?

[dirty nasty]

Originally Posted by TBC

That plus the hose for the job and the wrench to open the bleeder valve .

Thanks again for all of the advice - I ended up replacing the brake fluid in both brakes. Stopping power and response is significantly improved, though the front brake lever still has more give than I would like. Oh well - I think I'll ride it like this until the end of the season, and then take time over the winter for all of the various mods/tweaks I want to apply.

Dude, stop and think. THESE ARE YOUR BRAKES! Your fronts no less! The fronts are your most important brakes, if you didn't know. If you feel they're not up to snuff in any way, shape or form they need attention. Take your calipers apart, clean everything up, get new pads and inspect your brake lines and replace if necessary (look for bulging or dry rot or any evidence of leaks, brake fluid stains stuff).

[choneofakind]

Originally Posted by Motofool

What your experience with those pads has been, Chris?

I love the combination I have on my brakes right now.

Vesrah sintered front and rear. Galfer brake lines and DOT5.1 front and rear. Great feel, and when you need brakes, they're there and they're solid. Plenty of feedback.

[Motofool]

Originally Posted by choneofakind

I love the combination I have on my brakes right now.

Vesrah sintered front, non-sintered rear. Galfer brake lines and DOT5.1 front and rear. Great feel, and when you need brakes, they're there and they're solid. Plenty of feedback.

Great!

I asked you because there is plenty of good review on those pads for the new-gen; however, no much for the pre-gen, which use a different model of pads.

Thanks!

[TBC]

Originally Posted by dirty nasty

Dude, stop and think. THESE ARE YOUR BRAKES! Your fronts no less! The fronts are your most important brakes, if you didn't know. If you feel they're not up to snuff in any way, shape or form they need attention. Take your calipers apart, clean everything up, get new pads and inspect your brake lines and replace if necessary (look for bulging or dry rot or any evidence of leaks, brake fluid stains stuff).

I need time and money to give them attention, both of which are in short supply right now .

The brakes still do stop the bike in short order, it's just that the lever response isn't great.

[Eagle981]

Don't want to thread hijack but I have a brake related issue as well as a separate question.

Issue:
Whenever I get off the freeway, there is very little pressure on my brake pedal. I can feel the rear brake being applied but the pedal just feels loose. After I sit still for 60 seconds or so (at a light for example) the pressure comes back and everything seems normal. Anyone have an explanation of this and a solution?

Question:
The previous owner installed an Gen2 250R taillight on my bike and the brakelight only activates with the rear pedal. I am assuming this is a wiring issue of some kind. Does someone have a full wiring diagram or explain to me how to fix this?

Thanks

[xaple]

Originally Posted by TBC

Thanks for the help everyone! I really appreciate it.

Hernan - I priced out some stuff, and it looks like it would be dead cheap to flush and replace the brake fluid, but a bit pricey to replace the pads ($70+), and even more to upgrade the lines to stainless steel ($110+). Is there any way to check on the condition of the pads without much wrenching? And if I weren't to upgrade to the stainless lines, how much would replacement (rubber) lines run?

Thanks again!

I highly recommend http://stores.sportbiketrackgear.com/Detail.bok?no=4908
Theres are great lines and you feel a noticeable difference. the site has a few videos showing you exactly what to do. Takes no time at all and you will not regret it. They are cool colors as well.

[Motofool]

Welcome to the forum, Guy !

Your rear brake may be dragging, making your fluid boil and become compressible due to the vapor.

After cooling down a bit, it is all liquid inside the system again.

For the crossed wires see:

http://faq.ninja250.org/wiki/Wiring_...s_%26_diagrams

[dirty nasty]

Originally Posted by TBC

I need time and money to give them attention, both of which are in short supply right now .

The brakes still do stop the bike in short order, it's just that the lever response isn't great.

You'll have no money and all the time in the world to think if your fronts fail and you end up in the hospital. Brakes aren't hard to do. They require very little time or money. It's complete selfish idiocy and disregard for your safety and everyone else's safety to ride with brakes you aren't 100% about.

If you can't afford it, then sorry, you simply cannot afford to ride motorcycles. Wait a few years, save some coin and then come back.

[Eagle981]

Originally Posted by Motofool

Welcome to the forum, Guy !

Your rear brake may be dragging, making your fluid boil and become compressible due to the vapor.

After cooling down a bit, it is all liquid inside the system again.

For the crossed wires see:

http://faq.ninja250.org/wiki/Wiring_...s_%26_diagrams

Any way to check/fix the dragging?

[Motofool]

Yes, if after a relatively long ride without using the rear brake, you touch the rear disc and it is hot, then there is drag and heat generation.

The most common cause is dirt and grime that accumulates on the pistons and guides of the caliper, keeping some pressure between pads and disc after you release the brake.

Dirty and old brake fluid can also give you problems.
Humidity dissolved in the fluid, due to age, can make the described problem even worse, since water boils at lower temperature than the brake fluid.

The caliper should be cleaned periodically.
The fluid should be completely replaced every couple of years.

See how and why here:

http://faq.ninja250.org/wiki/Brakes

[TBC]

Originally Posted by Eagle981

Don't want to thread hijack but I have a brake related issue as well as a separate question.

No problem at all!

Originally Posted by dirty nasty

You'll have no money and all the time in the world to think if your fronts fail and you end up in the hospital. Brakes aren't hard to do. They require very little time or money. It's complete selfish idiocy and disregard for your safety and everyone else's safety to ride with brakes you aren't 100% about.

It's all relative. A little time to you may be a lot of time to me, and $120 may be a little bit of cash for you but it's quite a bit for me. Call me a selfish idiot all you want - I still have to commute and eat.

To add that it takes me an hour to get to a garage to work on the bike, and then I cannot leave until I get the bike in working order. So doing things like hanging the caliper and going about doing other things are not really feasible at the moment.

[dirty nasty]

A garage? Yeah, I wish I had one of those. All I've got is 2' wide concrete sidewalk in my back yard surrounded by grass to work on my bike.

Quit making excuses. They're your brakes. And no, $120 isn't a little bit of cash and I regularly do 50+ hours of work a week. I can't afford to have a shop to work on my bike, so I do it. Pick up a manual and learn. Half assin it is why we have so many wadded up motorcycles in the world.

[TBC]

Originally Posted by dirty nasty

A garage? Yeah, I wish I had one of those. All I've got is 2' wide concrete sidewalk in my back yard surrounded by grass to work on my bike.

It's not so much the garage as it is the tools in the garage . Hard to wrench on the bike without a wrench.

Originally Posted by dirty nasty

Quit making excuses. They're your brakes. And no, $120 isn't a little bit of cash and I regularly do 50+ hours of work a week. I can't afford to have a shop to work on my bike, so I do it. Pick up a manual and learn. Half assin it is why we have so many wadded up motorcycles in the world.

Who said I was going to a shop? That's the price for new lines...

But believe me, I do get your point. Fact of the matter is that the brakes work well enough that I feel confident in their ability to stop the bike. At the moment I have neither the time nor the money to invest in making them stop the bike even better than they do currently. There is about a month left in the good riding season, and over the winter I hope to find some more time to wrench and upgrade various parts of the bike. But until then, I'm going to simply have to live with the brakes being good enough to do their job.

[dirty nasty]

You would know if your lines were bad, you would see it. Just take apart the caliper and clean it. It should be done as regular maintenance anyways.

[TBC]

Originally Posted by dirty nasty

You would know if your lines were bad, you would see it.

As leaks?

Originally Posted by dirty nasty

Just take apart the caliper and clean it. It should be done as regular maintenance anyways.

If you could explain - how would cleaning the caliper help the lever response?

[dirty nasty]

Leaks, dry rot, soft spots.

The pistons will be clean and will slide in and out of the caliper much easier. Clean the master cylinder while you're at it.

[Eagle981]

I really don't think it's necessary for me to start a new thread about my brake issue (though I am happy to if anyone gets sore about the potential thread-jack) but I have an update on my issue:

I confirmed the rubbing (too late though; my pads are gone) so I will need to get new pads but I found another issue that seems bizarre and I wonder if anyone else has experienced this. The bolt heads of my rotor rub against the bottom of the mounting bracket on my caliper. It appears this has been going on for quite sometime as both the mount and all the bolt heads have been ground down. Any explanation for this? Any solution?


P.S. I am really starting to hate the previous owner of this bike

[TBC]

Originally Posted by dirty nasty

The pistons will be clean and will slide in and out of the caliper much easier. Clean the master cylinder while you're at it.

Well - update for me. A friend looked at the bike last night and noticed that the master cylinder looked empty. So I opened it up today (after removing the stripped screws holding it on) and it's completely full. Just a bit of optical trickery at play. Anyways...

I also pulled the front caliper just to see how it looked, and everything seems rather dirty. But it took me far too long to get the caliper back on the bike that I'm not confident in my ability to do a thorough cleaning and get everything back together correctly. But the pads look alright!

I think I'm going to try that zip-tie trick next.

[Motofool]

Originally Posted by TBC

........I think I'm going to try that zip-tie trick next.

Exterior cleaning is not that difficult, just follow the how-to linked in post #27 above.

[TBC]

Originally Posted by Motofool

Here http://faq.ninja250.org/wiki/How_do_...rake_lines%3F:

Option 3: Zip-tie the brake lever to the bar overnight. This opens the bleed valve at the master cylinder and can let air escape...Take the zip tie(s) off in the morning and check to see if it helped.

Didn't help, though.

[choneofakind]

I found that when I was bleeding, I didn't do it forcefully enough. I thought that if I did it carefully and slowly that I'd be ok. Nope. When it didn't work, I did the same zip-tie trick you did and got the same results, because the whole line was still air bubbles apparently.

Get the order of your motions right and don't be afraid to SQUEEZE the lever hard and fast. You literally have to force the air down and out of the lines.

[OldTimer]

I think something is wrong with the logic of the "zip tie trick". The bleed or return valve on a master brake cylinder is only open when there is NO pressure on the lever. If it were open when the lever was pressed then the fluid in the line would not build pressure, it would only get vented back to the reservoir. How the master cylinder works is that when you press on the lever the piston in the master cylinder covers and moves past the bleed back valve so you can build pressure up in the line, when you release the piston the bleed valve is open and any residual pressure in the line is bleed back into the reservoir. There is usually an equalization port behind piston as well and that is never covered or blocked but it is not part of the pressurization system of the brakes. I am going to dispute this "trick" on those grounds. The trick will not work. See diagram below:

[dirty nasty]

I've never had to do any sort of stupid ass trick like you're talking about. If you have functioning brakes you should only have to fill the master cylinder and keep pumping. The system will build up pressure. Keep the master cylinder full at all times and check it frequently! If you let the master cylinder run dry you must start over.

To take the caliper apart is simple. Pull it off the rotor and hit the brakes until the pistons pop out. Keep a rag underneath them to catch them, it's VERY important you DO NOT DROP THESE! Or scratch or damage them in any way. It's also very important the inside bore of the caliper stay scratch and mar free. Clean everything out with brake parts cleaner and a rag. Check out the seals and if they're in good shape lubricate them with brake fluid and push the pistons back in and re-assemble the caliper. Can't remember how it went on? Shoulda paid attention. Check the Ninja 250 Wiki for info.