May 27th, 2016, 07:41 AM | #1 |
Cat herder
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Braking tip: squeeze, then SQUEEZE
@ZeroGravity360 @lizardywizard
Over in the "250 not fast enough?" thread I posted about braking hard. https://www.ninjette.org/forums/show...7&postcount=88 Rather than derail that conversation even further, I thought I'd pass along a little tip for you. This comes from the friendly folks who run the track days I go to. You can brake INCREDIBLY hard on a motorcycle. Much harder than you believe possible. You can literally lift the rear of the bike clear off the ground, using just two fingers (i.e., a stoppie). It's a lot harder on a Ninjette with its single disc, but on a supersport it's easy. Now, stoppies are not part of your regular riding skillset, nor should they be. But hard braking definitely should be. The key is to not lose the front end. You've got a small contact patch supporting all those forces, and once it gives up the bike is going to lowside and you'll thank your lucky stars that you're ATGATT. To keep that from happening give yourself as much traction as you can. And yes, you can INCREASE the tire's available traction. Here's how: first you load the front by squeezing gently (I don't mean light as a feather... I simply mean enough to start braking; the point here is that you do NOT grab the whole freakin' thing RIGHT NOW!!!). What that does is compress the front tire, making it "squish." The contact patch spreads out and grows, giving you more traction. Then you can squeeze REALLY hard. It's a relatively fast thing, but it's definitely a "squeeze, then SQUEEZE" not a "squeezeSQUEEZE." If you apply the brakes too hard, too fast, you overwhelm the tire before it has a chance to squish. By loading it gently first, you get more traction and THEN you can brake harder. Great video about this. Pertinent stuff starts at 2:00. At 3:00 you'll see a graphic demonstration of what happens when you suddenly load a tire, vs. loading gently before you lean on it.
Link to original page on YouTube.
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May 27th, 2016, 07:45 AM | #2 |
Just sittin on my stool..
Name: Amanda
Location: Bloomington, IN
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WOW!! YES! thank you for this! I defiantly need to research this. I am the type of person who wants to learn even if i think I know the answer. Maybe its my anthropology major in college that makes me want to learn different ways of doing things.
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May 27th, 2016, 08:01 AM | #3 |
Cat herder
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Since you're about to take the MSF, remember one thing:
That course is designed to teach you lowest-common-denominator techniques that will keep you safe when all your cognitive abilities go out the window. Which they will in an emergency, and far more readily if you're inexperienced. It's only natural. You've already shared your experiences of getting a bit flustered in traffic. Think about what that's doing to your cognition. It'll all pass with more seat time. That does NOT mean the techniques you learn in the basic course are the only way to do things. For example, they teach you NOT to cover the brake when you ride. This is because an inexperienced rider, in a panic, will grab that front brake without thinking about subtle things like how much pressure they're applying. More experienced riders routinely cover the front brake because it reduces your reaction time. Check my right hand... I'm not slowing down here, I'm accelerating out of a turn. Same deal with the emergency braking in a turn thing. They make it seem as if you will crash if you touch the brake while cornering. They're right... if you brake too hard, which a newbie is likely to do. But you CAN brake while turning once you have more experience. So for now, listen, learn, do what they say, and stick with the program because it's valuable stuff. Get experience, then build your skills. More advanced training will teach you those more advanced techniques... the basic MSF is not the time or the place. Note: I've been riding for 29 years. It wasn't until I hit the track two or three years ago that I really started trail braking and understanding how to balance those forces properly. Point is that you can become a safe, successful rider and have a great time following the basic MSF guidelines.
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May 27th, 2016, 08:09 AM | #4 |
The Corner Whisperer
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Location: Northern KY
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As a MSF coach, if I catch you covering the brake, you will get called on it. Normally very LOUDLY too. The brake and swerve drill is my absolute favorite drill on the range but hopefully they still have the braking in a corner drill in your state.
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May 27th, 2016, 08:12 AM | #5 |
Vintage Screwball
Name: B
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Am I one of the few that uses the rear brake to trail brake also, depending on the situation? So many people and racers I know don't ever bother to use the rear brake.
The only time I touch the front brake lever is just before I need to use it.
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May 27th, 2016, 08:17 AM | #6 |
The Corner Whisperer
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I watch for coverage there too. I need to see you move your hands and feet during the drills. We look for input on all 4 controls.
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May 27th, 2016, 08:19 AM | #7 |
ᗧ•••ᗣ•ᗣᗣ•••ᗣ
Name: Nick
Location: NY
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I got the same treatment when I took my MSF. I use to do the same with covering them with two fingers.
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May 27th, 2016, 08:19 AM | #8 | |
Just sittin on my stool..
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Quote:
Last futzed with by ZeroGravity360; May 27th, 2016 at 10:27 AM. |
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May 27th, 2016, 08:37 AM | #9 | |
Certified looney toon
Name: Teri
Location: 39°52'40.7"N 118°23'53.8"W (Northern NV)
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Quote:
I like Toni. BTW - @adouglas, totally digging the picture cause you are in the rain! Love it!
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May 27th, 2016, 08:40 AM | #10 |
The Corner Whisperer
Name: Chris (aka Reactor)
Location: Northern KY
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May 27th, 2016, 08:43 AM | #11 |
Certified looney toon
Name: Teri
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Yep. that was basically it. LOL
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May 27th, 2016, 09:16 AM | #12 |
Cat herder
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I was away from riding for a few years in the early 2000s and when I decided to jump back in I re-took the MSF course as a refresher.
Covering the brake was the thing that I kept doing "wrong." Second time around was fun, actually. It all depends on your mindset. I was already a licensed rider with years of experience, but no recent experience. Frankly I think the vast majority of drivers would benefit greatly from going back to Drivers' Ed.
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May 27th, 2016, 10:34 AM | #13 |
green stig
Name: V
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Thanks for the mention!
I've been reading Proficient Motorcycling and Total Control and they say similar things, yep. About the contact patch anyway. Definitely gonna watch that video. About a lot of people not using their rear brake - I actually didn't either until I took the course with Dom Schreiber. He showed me how to use it for low speed control and now I use it all the time in that situation, it helps a lot. I'm actually going back to him for more training in a couple of weeks. He's an awesome guy. Costly but totally worth it. Also, that picture of you cornering in the rain is hella impressive. Who even took that? They're an amazing photographer. |
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May 27th, 2016, 10:36 AM | #14 | |
Just sittin on my stool..
Name: Amanda
Location: Bloomington, IN
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May 27th, 2016, 11:00 AM | #15 | |
n00bie to wannabie
Name: Bill
Location: St Ives, BC (Shuswap Lake)
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Quote:
On the street; seldom is my front braking anywhere near 100% application pressure. On the track; I'm near 100% so the rear has little to do except for initial loading. In the wet: things are pretty well the same except proportionally; the rear can provide a little more braking as it's not unloaded as much as in the dry. As most readers are in the new or less than 5 year/50,000 mile category; the most important knowledge you need to absorb and apply subconsciously particularly in those moments of extreme stress or absentmindedness is to practice, practice, practice stopping to front wheel lockup & release. It becomes instinctual and you will subconsciously feel when to release and reapply, release etc so even in the wet or Sandy surface, leaned over or whatever: you maintain both maximum braking force and minimum wheel lock. Find that parking lot or empty street and practice applying the front brake. But walk before you can run! Don't try to lock it your first session or 3! Practice applying firmly then a quick release. The quick ease of release is the vital skill! Eventually; you will lock the front and instantly release! Enough of my babble. There's lots of video & reading with more comprehensive technique description. Get out there and practice! I still do it every time I ride.
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May 27th, 2016, 11:15 AM | #16 |
ninjette.org certified postwhore
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Hard emergency breaking needs to be practiced and committed to muscle memery. You servival reaction will not like releasing the break when you think you maybe about to crash, but that is what you need to do.
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May 27th, 2016, 11:15 AM | #17 |
Cat herder
Name: Gort
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Re using the rear brake under HARD braking conditions... think about that for a sec.
If you're braking so hard that you truly are at the limit, your rear tire is barely skimming the pavement. (Just to avoid confusion, "braking hard" doesn't happen with the rear brake only... it means using all the braking power you have available, and that means the front.) Watch the MotoGP guys and you'll see their rear tires are OFF THE GROUND under hard braking.
Link to original page on YouTube.
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I am NOT an adrenaline junkie, I'm a skill junkie. - csmith12 Nam et ipsa scientia potestas est. Heri historia. Cras mysterium. Hodie donum est. Carpe diem. |
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May 27th, 2016, 11:17 AM | #18 | |
Vintage Screwball
Name: B
Location: Washington
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Quote:
I'm also talking about small corrections mid corner. Not hard straight line braking.
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May 27th, 2016, 11:20 AM | #19 |
n00bie to wannabie
Name: Bill
Location: St Ives, BC (Shuswap Lake)
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There's another lesson o be gleaned from this thread:
Break is what happens to your turn signals & fairings if you drop your bike. Brake as a name is the name of the part that stops your bike. Brake is also the action of slowing down. If you're breaking your brakes: you're foooked!!!
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The Smart Money: #1 - ATGATT, #2 - Training (machine skills and survival skills), #3 - The bike; whatever floats yer boat with the money you have left over |
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May 27th, 2016, 11:23 AM | #20 | |
ninjette.org certified postwhore
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Quote:
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Keep calm and ride on -Motofool Never quit on a rainy day -ally99 |
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May 27th, 2016, 11:23 AM | #21 | |
Cat herder
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Quote:
As noted above, newer riders are unlikely to approach these limits, especially on a bike like the Ninjette because its brakes are nowhere near as powerful as those on a supersport machine.
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I am NOT an adrenaline junkie, I'm a skill junkie. - csmith12 Nam et ipsa scientia potestas est. Heri historia. Cras mysterium. Hodie donum est. Carpe diem. |
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May 27th, 2016, 11:40 AM | #22 | |
n00bie to wannabie
Name: Bill
Location: St Ives, BC (Shuswap Lake)
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Quote:
Careful examination of hundreds of accident scene photos involving motorcycles often reveals a long, straight, thick black line skid mark created by the motorcycle. That skid mark is often over 100 feet long. It is virtually impossible to leave a straight, thick skid mark created by a front tire. If your front brake is being applied at even 80% efficiency; it's unlikely a rear skid mark would be visible or at most: very faint. Additionally; over use of the rear brake if leaned over will cause you to skid the rear sideways and if the brake is released; it has a high probability of resulting in a high side which is something I hope you never have to experience.
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The Smart Money: #1 - ATGATT, #2 - Training (machine skills and survival skills), #3 - The bike; whatever floats yer boat with the money you have left over |
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May 27th, 2016, 11:41 AM | #23 |
ninjette.org member
Name: RJ
Location: PA
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Great advice. I regularly practice hard braking and other maneuvers in a large empty lot by my house. That s**t has saved me on multiple occasions.
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May 27th, 2016, 12:25 PM | #25 |
The Corner Whisperer
Name: Chris (aka Reactor)
Location: Northern KY
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<--- This guy.... Some members here have witnessed it first hand from behind or watching from the fence.
The rear brake has it's place in riding true dat!, normally after the basics have been sorted out. If your gunna sort your skills, work the front brake first. I promise, it will serve you well. HD or gsxr 1000, it's in your best interest. Dirt or vintage... maybe not so much, different animal.
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May 27th, 2016, 12:36 PM | #26 | |
Certified looney toon
Name: Teri
Location: 39°52'40.7"N 118°23'53.8"W (Northern NV)
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Quote:
Notice how rear brake only is the longest to stop? The majority of your stopping power is up front, use it.
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May 27th, 2016, 12:36 PM | #27 |
Just sittin on my stool..
Name: Amanda
Location: Bloomington, IN
Join Date: May 2016 Motorcycle(s): 2012 Ninja 250 Posts: 429
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wait.. DONT use the rear brake? See this is why I feel like you need seat time and advice prior to the MSF course because my ex boyfriend who helped me get started after i bought my bike took the MSF course and told me all kinds of wrong information...
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May 27th, 2016, 12:39 PM | #28 | |
Just sittin on my stool..
Name: Amanda
Location: Bloomington, IN
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Quote:
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May 27th, 2016, 12:47 PM | #29 | ||
The Corner Whisperer
Name: Chris (aka Reactor)
Location: Northern KY
Join Date: May 2011 Motorcycle(s): 2010 250 (track), 1992 250, 2006 R6 (street/track), 2008 R6 (track) Posts: Too much.
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Quote:
Quote:
Sorry to have confused you, I was responding to a specific member. Your bike has 4 main inputs; throttle, front brake, rear brake and gear shifter. Learning when and how to use these to your benefit is the difference between a good rider and a great rider.
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Goal: Shake A Million Hands | Look through the corners | Track Day Prep | Closest track? | The Mid-Ohio School Last futzed with by csmith12; May 27th, 2016 at 04:41 PM. Reason: grammer |
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May 27th, 2016, 12:52 PM | #30 |
ninjette.org certified postwhore
Name: Al
Location: York, Pa
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MSF will teach you to use both and do as they tell you in class, but it is the front that you need to have down pat with no upper level thinking. Stopping is the single most important skill to learn.
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May 27th, 2016, 12:55 PM | #31 |
Just sittin on my stool..
Name: Amanda
Location: Bloomington, IN
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I got the front breaking down from riding a bicycle. However, it is much different on a motorcycle. You have a much heavier thing under you, and you dont stop as fast. Also, the front brakes are so sensitive sometimes I just try to barly touch them
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May 27th, 2016, 01:01 PM | #32 |
n00bie to wannabie
Name: Bill
Location: St Ives, BC (Shuswap Lake)
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It's exactly the same on a motorcycle as a bicycle other than controls and the addition of engine braking. Done correctly; you will stop faster on a motorcycle due to the size of the contact patch.
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The Smart Money: #1 - ATGATT, #2 - Training (machine skills and survival skills), #3 - The bike; whatever floats yer boat with the money you have left over |
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May 27th, 2016, 01:05 PM | #33 |
ninjette.org certified postwhore
Name: Al
Location: York, Pa
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go to you tube and search motorcycle parking lot drills
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May 27th, 2016, 01:09 PM | #34 |
wat
Name: wat
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rear brake is a compliment to your main brake: the front brake. ease into braking. the bike has to settle into the suspension and compress the tire before you have a whole lot of traction so it's immensely important to brake progressively. slamming on the brakes will lock up the tire, but gradually applying full brake over a second or two will not. the front brake has enough braking power to make the bike do a front flip if you ease into it without losing traction. its nice to use both brakes normally but if i'm in an emergency, i use engine brake instead of rear brake. harder to **** up the traction.
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May 27th, 2016, 01:15 PM | #35 | |
wat
Name: wat
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Quote:
also your ex is an idiot and didn't pay attention in the MSF. don't listen to him.
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May 27th, 2016, 01:35 PM | #36 | |
Just sittin on my stool..
Name: Amanda
Location: Bloomington, IN
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May 27th, 2016, 03:07 PM | #37 | |
Vintage Screwball
Name: B
Location: Washington
Join Date: Feb 2016 Motorcycle(s): 2011 Ninja 250, 2008 Ninja 250, 2019 KTM 1290SDR, 2017 FZ10 Posts: A lot.
MOTM - Mar '16
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Quote:
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Goin' fast on slow bikes! |
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May 27th, 2016, 04:46 PM | #38 | |
The Corner Whisperer
Name: Chris (aka Reactor)
Location: Northern KY
Join Date: May 2011 Motorcycle(s): 2010 250 (track), 1992 250, 2006 R6 (street/track), 2008 R6 (track) Posts: Too much.
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Quote:
Trust me, what you might believe is hard braking, is about 1/10 of the possibilities, pedal bikes need not apply here. Do you have faith in your ability to shave off 50+mph in 100ft? If not, there is more work to be done. And... just so you know, we ALL should be continually working on this skill, including myself.
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May 27th, 2016, 05:57 PM | #39 | |
Just sittin on my stool..
Name: Amanda
Location: Bloomington, IN
Join Date: May 2016 Motorcycle(s): 2012 Ninja 250 Posts: 429
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May 27th, 2016, 05:58 PM | #40 |
wat
Name: wat
Location: tustin/long beach
Join Date: Sep 2009 Motorcycle(s): wat Posts: Too much.
Blog Entries: 5
MOTM - Oct '12, Feb '14
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i was amazed when i started riding pedal bikes. you barely touch the front brake on a pedal bike and the rear starts lifting off the ground. if you're smooth you can really brake unbelievably hard without any issue on a moto
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