Some lessons can only be taught in person

[choneofakind]

...and sometimes we get lucky

As some of you know, I low sided on tuesday at Mid-Ohio during a track day. My first day in Intermediate group. I was a little anxious because I hadn't been on track in a while. But I knew the course, had done a few novice level days with the full formal school sessions, and felt I was ready for I level, assuming traffic wasn't bad. We (@csmith12 and I) skipped the first session of the morning to observe the track conditions. It wasn't particularly warm or sunny, and the Indycars had been there 2 days before, leaving TONS of rubber on the track. It was literally 1/2" thick in places. More on that later. Needless to say, traction was not ideal and left a little less room for error than the usual boiling hot sunny track I was used to.

Now, this was my first track day in a while. I fully admit, csmith12 is an awesome braker. I knew this. I know it even more now. He's a badass on the brakes. Late and hard. The first session we did (2nd of the day) was slow and careful to get a feel for the track again. It felt good, but I was getting odd, random shimmies through turns. Clue one on being to tight on the bars. I thought it was weird, but honestly thought the rubber was more to blame because it was in giant ruts and lines. As you cross over them, shimmies were normal. Logical thought process; but totally wrong. The problem was me. duh.

Enter our second session, right before lunch. I decided I wanted to try to brake more firmly and a little later. I've always been an average braker. Never particularly great, but good enough to survive some panic situations on street. Aka, I can stop hard, but it takes some thought. It's always been my weakness. So, we come down the straight, and brake down to entry speed for turn 7. I'm focusing on the braking, get a little SR when I see the sand trap at the end of the straight, but collect myself and get her tipped in for the turn. No problem. Except I'm a little too wide on exit and too swoopy going into turn 8. uh oh. So I swoop into 8, trying to take my usual early tight apex up the hill and murder the gas on exit over the crest, keeping it tight to the curbing. Totally do-able to correct for a swoopy, overly-wide entrance to 8 usually, but not right now. Remember how I said I was tight on the bars? Watch the video and check out all my shimmy during braking and when I get my body off. I'm way tight and not using my legs enough at this point.

Now enter all that indycar rubber into the mix. They corner hard into 8, grinding it in exactly in the wide entry line I took. I get more shimmy as my tight arms fight the cold rubber on rubber slide. I attempt to give it gas to carry the front, but in my tightness, I think all I did was hurt the situation and turn the bars. After another shimmy, the front tucks, and I'm sliding.

What did I do wrong? I got caught up in the red mist, tried to brake like csmith12 and chase him into 7, messed up the 7 line, and took myself right out of my comfort zone. They say to ride at 90% pace on track to give yourself some error for learning, but this particular lap put me at like 99% pace because of the braking, then put me quickly over my head when I hit the rubber with a bad line. Combine that with being WAAAYYY too tight, and chone is on the pavement doing a belly slide.

Lesson learned. Stay loose folks! Let the bike do the hard work. It happens to all of us. and especially, ride your own pace. Stay comfortable. Don't let that red mist close in and get competitive. If it means you're slow, who cares?!? I was slow the rest of our two days, and I learned tons. I rode my pace, relaxed, and the comfort and speed came right back. This also really reinforced to me that it's all in the rider. I was quick to blame the track conditions for my front end feeling, when I should have immediately turned the focus on myself. I remind people of this all the time on this forum, but I myself was unable to blame myself when my symptoms were showing. I felt like a total rookie

[choneofakind]

Note my wobbles during braking off the straight. I'm using my arms too much. Note how wide I go at exit, and how I swoop across the track rather than go straight towards the entrance to 8. Note how wide I am going into tip-in for 8. Note how my front end travels over a nice dark patch of indycar rubber, shimmies, then washes out. Totally all my fault. I'll get some video up from the last couple sessions of day 2; all this is consistently improved.

Link to original page on YouTube.

if you slow it down and watch, the bike spins around and you can see my doing the belly slide on the pavement!

Yay for gear. I was up within seconds. No injuries at all. Gear is all in perfect shape, my head never touched the ground. Luckily traffic was light, so I didn't get run over.

Damage to the bike:

• Left bar
• clutch lever
• shift lever
• rearset adjuster
• fairing bracket
• a couple fairing cracks

We got it back up and running with some help from csmith12 and some nice riders in the paddock and I was able to ride both of my days. I still need to sort out the fairing bracket, but these bikes crash like tanks. Super happy with it. Good thing I bought a set of backup plastics!

[csmith12]

Honesty... yep, he has it. I wish you would have made a bigger issue of the tightness and feedback you were getting through the bars and we could have worked it. It's totally understandable to think the extra feedback in the bars are from the rough tarmac. I made the same mistake at Nelson Ledges (it's a really bumpy track for those that don't know).

Lemme throw you a curveball and ask you a couple of questions.

First the curveball - When riding over questionable surfaces, your gunna get questionable feedback through the bike. The trick of it is to question/find out/understand where it's coming from before pushing your luck. Go back to my post about "Dulling the Senses" and relate it to your crash.

Question 1: How could you isolate that the feedback was coming from the surface vs. your inputs?

Question 2: Reread this. What was the first rule you broke?

[alex.s]

could have had it if you were back on the gas i think. fun stuff

[choneofakind]

I wasn't looking far enough. I got caught up in THE BRAKE ZONE!!!! and didn't look through the turn soon enough. It kinda backed everything up on me and overloaded just a tad. Left me with a slow entry and a wide exit at 7, and consequently a poor line into 8.


Isolating the road vs my hands: stay loose and use my knees better. I got better at that through the afternoon, and the front end hooked up perfectly the rest of the two days. I've always had shimmies and sketchy slides on MTB over really rough surface so I'm used to a little shake through turns. It really didn't bother me much at the time. I assumed it was the cold/rubber. I guess the motorcycle is always so planted, I assumed it was the surface, not me. I should have asked about it when we discussed the session.


First rule broken: probably listening to the bike. It didn't like me being stiff on the bars.
second rule broken: controlling the mind
third rule: visual skills. Not thinking/looking far enough ahead.

[alex.s]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ydLV...layer_embedded

[csmith12]

Originally Posted by choneofakind

First rule broken: probably listening to the bike. It didn't like me being stiff on the bars.

DING, DING, DING!!! Winner!

[choneofakind]

Originally Posted by alex.s

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ydLV...layer_embedded

yeah, like that. But WAAAYYYYYYY slower. And less dignified looking.

[Jiggles]

Nice crash

[snot]

I find it very interesting that you went down in the same turn I did and THE SAME PLACE. I will study the links in this thread before the 25th when I go back. I believe I may have made some of the same errors. I know one of mine was body position and input.
Thank you for posting, this will help me.

Oh and this post#300!

[choneofakind]

It's a sneaky hard turn.

If that turn were solo on a road, it would be a non-event. I think it's because that turn is the second turn after the straight. Mess up the braking off the straight, you mess up turn 7. Mess up the line through turn 7, you mess up the entry to 8 and run into the rubber left down by the cars. Add in a stiff rider who's not doing as well as he/she should spotting the big sign that says '5' past the top of the hill, and you're not doing so well.

[Sirref]

Yea I messed up the braking on my final lap in turn 7 on the r6 (part of a string of sloppiness that made me realize my concentration was failing me) I braked extra for turn 8 as a result of it but I still wasn't able to take it the super tight line that I had been liking through there

you've gotta add a picture of your leathers man! they look pretty cool, like mine except rubber instead of dirt barely a scratch on them

[choneofakind]

well phooey, I never got a picture of them at the track, and a picture of them on my carpet just isn't the same. I think Jade got a picture though. We'll let Chris post it. If not, you can clearly see the rubber in my videos.

[Sirref]

Originally Posted by choneofakind

well phooey, I never got a picture of them at the track, and a picture of them on my carpet just isn't the same. I think Jade got a picture though. We'll let Chris post it. If not, you can clearly see the rubber in my videos.

I'm pretty sure jade got a picture of you when you got back and you still had the suit on, we skipped through it pretty quick though since we were focused on finding the pics of the 3 of us on the track at the time

[csmith12]

Pics uploading, stay tuned.

[csmith12]

The gear pic per request.

[adouglas]

Originally Posted by choneofakind

I got caught up in THE BRAKE ZONE!!!!

I know that feeling. I had two "moments" during my first track days last month. One was running off due to target fixation but the other one was just what you describe... misjudging, too deep, too fast.

(internal dialogue)

Spot the marker...roll off... brake. Brake. BRAKE. BRAKE BRAKE BRAKE!!!!!

[adouglas]

Originally Posted by csmith12

The gear pic per request.

Geez, man, you look just like Steve McQueen! Lucky bastage.

[KawiKid860]

Anyone who doesn't like 250s for some bs reason should listen to your description of riding one at the track.

It's too bad you crashed but it takes a lot of skill and careful analysis to understand what truly caused your crash, and you probably made big improvements from that. Certainly much better than blaming the bike or the track. It's almost kind of scary how finnicky things can seem on the edge, so many lowsides just seem like the bike decides to fall over for no reason. I feel bad that your minty fresh 250 is all beat up now :/ these old ugly kawis do crash well though. Too bad there are no super cool race rep style chinese fairings for it!

[Sirref]

Originally Posted by KawiKid860

Anyone who doesn't like 250s for some bs reason should listen to your description of riding one at the track.

It's too bad you crashed but it takes a lot of skill and careful analysis to understand what truly caused your crash, and you probably made big improvements from that. Certainly much better than blaming the bike or the track. It's almost kind of scary how finnicky things can seem on the edge, so many lowsides just seem like the bike decides to fall over for no reason. I feel bad that your minty fresh 250 is all beat up now :/ these old ugly kawis do crash well though. Too bad there are no super cool race rep style chinese fairings for it!

except it's not

track fairings ftw!

[KawiKid860]

That is a definite win and an ingenious idea

[Jono]

Ohhhh No! Sorry to hear about your crash. Everyone I know who has done a trackday has lowsided so your defintely not alone. You did good for not crashing on your first track day. Haha.


If you need a new "used" front fairing bracket hit me up. It's yours if you pay shipping.

[csmith12]

Maybe it is not as bad as "I crashed" sounds.

Chone's bike on the crash truck. Notice he took off things like signals, mirrors and such so they are undamaged at home. Sure it takes a bit more time, but totally worth it.

[Sirref]

that picture reminds me @choneofakind did you ever clean that dirty dirty chain?

[choneofakind]

Lol, nope. Just ran it and all the dirt flung off.

Track fairings ftw!!!

Jono, I'll take you up on that offer. Going camping tomorrow-Sunday. I'll catch you after that.

I love that picture. Not so sure about the Steve McQueen lookalike though...

[nickjpass]

i see bent parts! glad you came out okay!

[Sirref]

yea, lucky chone slid on rubber instead of pavement

[snot]

Originally Posted by Sirref

yea, lucky chone slid on rubber instead of pavement

When I cleaned up my bike after low siding in the same corner I found most of the black was rubber. The damage was not as bad as I thought.

[nickjpass]

Remove those signals

[csmith12]

Chone knows what is up... the track conditions would lend itself to "sudden surprises" when you ran offline. Check the following video of me following chone, where my front end suddenly slips without any warning aside of the running over the large rubber patch left by the indy cars @11-13 seconds into the vid where you see a sudden slip. I seen that I was offline just a lil bit and prepared for it. I know it's just a little thing... but when you're learning it doesn't feel smooth at all.

Link to original page on YouTube.

[Hero Danny]

Sorry about the fall, man that seemed like you may have had it at one point... :/ glad you're okay though.

[csmith12]

Originally Posted by Sirref

yea, lucky chone slid on rubber instead of pavement

The lack of rubber laid down by cars is another thing that makes JenningsGP so awesome. NO CARS ALLOWED! It's truly a surface worthy of the trip to ride on.

[choneofakind]

It definitely didn't feel smooth when you let loose on the rubber. It gave you one warning shimmy and then pushed. I found myself run wide on the keyhole a couple times because it was easier to go extra wide and miss the rubber than stick a little off line and slide.

[csmith12]

Yea, avoiding that thick patch of rubber was a wise move on your part. Honestly, I should have done the same.

[choneofakind]

I got it on video during one of my solo sessions. Without knowing what I'm doing, it kinda looks like I decided to take a nice slow detour and stand her up a little bit.

[Sirref]

Originally Posted by csmith12

The lack of rubber laid down by cars is another thing that makes JenningsGP so awesome. NO CARS ALLOWED! It's truly a surface worthy of the trip to ride on.

shenny is pretty sick too
I think I'll be seeing you at jennings, shenny, and mid-ohio next season

I'm also looking into riding at watkins glen and njmp if I can
anyone have any other suggestions for good tracks to ride on the east coast?

[choneofakind]

The Glen no longer runs motorcycles because there is little to no run off in many places. I've raced a running/biking duathlon on that track, I would not ride it at track pace on the ninjette. It's a shame, the track is very technical, similar to Mid-O

[Sirref]

I'll survive

doing 2 days each at:
mid-o
shenny
njmp (thunderbolt)
jennings
??? (possibly repeat one)

should satisfy my hunger next season

[choneofakind]

Good news!

Looks like I can get sets of replacement OE levers for ~$10. I'll pick up a couple pairs for good measure. WC bars are also cheap. I'll get a few spares of those while I'm at it.

The pricey part comes at the rearsets. Do I wait until A&L has rearset adjusters in stock again? those worked alright and were cheap, but I wanted more adjustability. Do I pony up and get WC complete rearsets also? They have great replacement part support. Do I get Sato's? They're uber adjustable but pricey. Or do I get SV Racing? Cheaper but I'm not so sure about replacement parts because I cannot find them anywhere, just the entire rearset.

Jono is working with me to get a replacement fairing/speedo mount bracket.

I'm going to pick up a safety wire tool from HF because that thing was invaluable. Plus, maybe it will convince me to safety wire the whole bike, instead of using RTV on a few places... hmmmmmmmmm.

this has taught me to have more spare parts and consider replacement parts more heavily in my purchases.

[Sirref]

I vote upgrade the rearsets to some fully adjustable (or at least close) rearsets with firm pegs that don't fold