Cleaned Carbs, Replaced Gas, Still having engine problems.

[choneofakind]

WOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!! !!!

get out and ride it. get it warm, ride it hard for a solid half hour or so after it's warmed up. The whole not liking the gas and having to fight it with choke thing sounds just like mine after starting it the first time out of storage. It's just a little cranky. For me, that always goes away after the first day riding

with a completely stock intake/exhaust, you should be just fine with 2 washers on the needles. That's what I was running with stock intake/two brothers slip-ons with silencers for the longest time (same diameter outlet as the stock can). Ran great!

take it for a ride and see how it goes!!!

after you know how it rides and runs, some carb tuning might be in order, but that will be easy compared to what you've done so far

[greg737]

get out and ride it. get it warm, ride it hard for a solid half hour or so after it's warmed up. The whole not liking the gas and having to fight it with choke thing sounds just like mine after starting it the first time out of storage. It's just a little cranky. For me, that always goes away after the first day riding

Yes, he's right, there is the possibility that an "Italian tune-up" might help the carbs to work out their issues. Worth a try if the bike is rideable.

[choneofakind]

Originally Posted by greg737

"Italian tune-up"

[azwillnj]

Originally Posted by choneofakind

with a completely stock intake/exhaust, you should be just fine with 2 washers on the needles. That's what I was running with stock intake/two brothers slip-ons with silencers for the longest time (same diameter outlet as the stock can). Ran great!

I will try to ride it around today.. I have my motorcycle saftey course today, tomorrow, sat and sun so not much time to mess with it till Friday.

I'll take it out sometime this week and give her hell haha.

I have aftermarket single exhaust.. I wish I had the stock system. Should I leave the shims?

Alex.

[choneofakind]

Yeah leave the shims. Congrats on the 2-1 system btw. I just bought one. Can't wait to get it installed and running.

...in a month when I get done at school

[azwillnj]

Originally Posted by choneofakind

Yeah leave the shims. Congrats on the 2-1 system btw. I just bought one. Can't wait to get it installed and running.

...in a month when I get done at school

How much do you want for your stock exhaust and center stand?

[choneofakind]

Well, the stock exhaust was sold a while ago to a friend who had a fixer-upper, and the centerstand is not going up for sale. I'm keeping that for servicing the bike.

Are you just not a fan of the 2-1 or is it in rough shape?

[azwillnj]

Spoke too soon, tried to ride it yesterday and it was too temperamental to get moving. The way it moves past 4000rpm it was too dangerous to try to ride it. As a beginner rider, with 0 miles accumulated I was scared to floor it and play with the choke in first gear, I didn't want to pop the front wheel up.. I have to make it more reliable before trying to ride it.

[choneofakind]

that is a good and cautious idea.

Will it idle at like 3k? What is the absolute lowest you can get it to idle at? Once you have it idling at 4k with choke, try lowering the choke a little bit at a time until it's idling at 2500-3000 and let it idle until it accepts some throttle.

It might get better as it warms up. The other option is to find someone you trust to ride it around the neighborhood as long as possible.

I guess I would make a great Italian mechanic

[n4mwd]

Originally Posted by azwillnj

Spoke too soon, tried to ride it yesterday and it was too temperamental to get moving. The way it moves past 4000rpm it was too dangerous to try to ride it. As a beginner rider, with 0 miles accumulated I was scared to floor it and play with the choke in first gear, I didn't want to pop the front wheel up.. I have to make it more reliable before trying to ride it.

Based on this and your previous posts, its time to take the bike to a qualified mechanic.

[azwillnj]

Originally Posted by n4mwd

Based on this and your previous posts, its time to take the bike to a qualified mechanic.

I will not give up.

[n4mwd]

Originally Posted by azwillnj

I will not give up.

When you wired out the carb passages, did you get much gunk out?

[azwillnj]

Originally Posted by n4mwd

When you wired out the carb passages, did you get much gunk out?

Won't have time to wire it out till Friday afternoon, but I'm telling you, nothing is in there.

[greg737]

Originally Posted by azwillnj

Won't have time to wire it out till Friday afternoon, but I'm telling you, nothing is in there.

Well, maybe so, but I can tell you there are several of us that have been patiently (or not so patiently) waiting for you to finally get around to doing this.

Please be thorough about it: http://faq.ninja250.org/wiki/Cleaning_the_carbs_1 and http://faq.ninja250.org/wiki/Cleaning_the_carbs_2.

As I've said before in a post about your problem, the way it runs suggests that one or both of the carbs are missing the usefulness of a particular passageway (blocked or partially blocked) and that's why it will only run in certain parts of its operating envelope, idle or really high RPM, and is the reason that you have to pull that weird "work-around" method of full throttle and varying the choke to get from idle to high RPMs.

[azwillnj]

Just to be clear, get some copper wire, any copper wire will do, and then just shove it into every hole on the thing and move it around right?

[choneofakind]

I've never been a fan of shoving anything metal into my carbs, but yes that appears to be the instructions they give.

Blast every passage with compressed air after you do the wire method

[azwillnj]

What is the forum favorite carb cleaner?

[choneofakind]

Sea Foam

[azwillnj]

Originally Posted by choneofakind

Sea Foam

That comes in a spray can?

[alex.s]

it sounds like your pilot system is jacked dude.

[choneofakind]

I believe it can be found in a spray can...?

[TnNinjaGirl]

yes.

http://www.seafoamsales.com/sea-foam-spray.html

[greg737]

Follow the cleaning FAQ tutorials I linked to in my last post, they will guide you through everything: what to use, how to do it all and they will make sure you don't miss a single item.

and there's nothing to be concerned about with the copper wire. pure copper is much softer than the aluminum alloy and brass that the carb parts are made out of, so there's no way the copper wire can scratch/damage them.

[n4mwd]

Remember to also remove the diaphragms and put them a safe distance away. The cleaning fluids will mess them up.

Use a copper wire that is smaller than the hole and will move freely. You don't want to break it off in there. If you have a really bad blockage, you can switch to steel wire like mig wire or fishing leader wire. Piano wire is a bit too much. Once you have it clear, use some kind of carb cleaning spray with a tube on it. Seafoam spray is good if it has the tube. The purpose is to wash out any particles that are left inside due to the wiring process and to make sure the cleaner is coming out the hole on the other end.

Once its all back together, you still need to adjust the mixture and sync the carbs.

For the record, I have seen numerous carbs that were all shiny and clean on both the inside and outside that had passages stopped up to where they didn't work right. Soaking the carbs in "part cleaner dip" does not clean the passages.

[azwillnj]

Just wired out the carbs, every.. single.. last.. passageway, sprayed about a half a can of carb cleaner and compressed air through everything.................. and..................... drum roll...................... IT DOES THE SAME THING!!!

ITS NOT THE CARBS!! Can we put this to bed please, I'm tired of the broken record, I am not taking them apart again, it HAS to be something else.

Now, does anyone have any other suggestions?

[Asspire]

Originally Posted by n4mwd

Based on this and your previous posts, its time to take the bike to a qualified mechanic.

[greg737]

I'm speechless.

[n4mwd]

Based on your description of the symptoms, its a fuel delivery problem. Since you seem unwilling to accept that, its time to take it to the dealer or other qualified mechanic and let them fix the carbs for you.

Its possible that when you adjusted the float levels that you adjusted them incorrectly causing the bike to be starved for fuel. Also, you might not have the carb mixture and sync right either. Did you adjust the mixture and sync the carbs yet?

Anyhow, the mechanic will take care of all that for you.

[TnNinjaGirl]

Fwiw I have had a carb before that was damaged. The entire body was warped. It never really ran right. Maybe the entire carb is jacked?
Posted via Mobile Device

[n4mwd]

Originally Posted by TnNinjaGirl

Fwiw I have had a carb before that was damaged. The entire body was warped. It never really ran right. Maybe the entire carb is jacked?
Posted via Mobile Device

I was concerned about the ultrasonic cleaning for 4 hours that he did. Ultrasonic cleaning and aluminum alloys don't always get along. I'm not sure if that damaged it, but its not something I would have done.

He can always buy a new carb off ebay or get an ecotrons kit. He's supposed to come out with a new throttle body the first week in May.

[csmith12]

Let's assume your carbs are in perfect working order and valves adjusted properly.

Now lets get back to basics and a bit of red-neck tech.

Air + Fuel + Spark

Let's start with air

1. Open the air box - nothing in there right? red-neck tip* Throw an old t-shirt in there and try to start it. (less air) Next, try taking the air filter off completely and empty air box (much more air)

2. Check every vacuum line/carb boots visually for any cracks, holes and generally a good seal. red-neck tip* My guess you already have a can of spray carb cleaner, if not get one. The mist the areas of the vacuum lines with the bike idling. If the engine picks up rpm you got a leak.

3. Inspect exhaust - not clogged up anywhere is it?

Fuel

1. Pull some gas out and try it in a lawn mower, if the mower will run so will the bike

2. Check petcock and fuel to carbs. red-neck tip* Have a beer, then put empty beer can under petcock and pull hose. Move petcock control to all 3 positions to ensure they work as expected. Reconnect.

3. Take the same beer can and put it under each carb bowl and loosen drain screw to ensure float bowls are filling. At this point if the bike will run, then start it and run it for a bit. Try to rev it alittle too. If it dies STOP and check float bowls again. Empty? Fuel filter clogged? Full?

4. Now pull both plug wires and turn it over about 10 or so times and remove plug. Wet from gas = good, dry = bad (vacuum or valves)

Spark

1. Take spark plug out and connect to wire and wiggle it around where you can see it while standing up Turn bike on and turn it over a few times. See or hear a spark? What color is the end of the plug? Reconnect everything

2. You have a fresh battery from your earlier posts right? red-neck tip* Try to jumpstart from car (without the car running)

3. Check batter terminal connections and clean them if needed

4. Follow grounding wire all the way to termination. In good shape?

5. Get a manual if you don't already have one

6. red-neck tip* Pull every fuse that is not required for the bike to run and try again

All in all it should only take about an hour to do those tests and don't require you to take the carbs apart again.

Let us know how it goes and the best of luck to your sir.

[EMSRacer07]

i think its a fuel problem. its possible its shimmed too much and its running rich. check ur plugs they black or white? hell if its really rich they might be wet and that wouldnt help either.

[choneofakind]

Hmmmm


I'm still of the opinion of if it starts and just has some issues with throttle, it might get better after ridden for a while because it's grouchy, but Chris has some good suggestions as well that sound do-able.

[TnNinjaGirl]

@csmith12 @Alex Sticky that wonderful informtation! Excellent tips for hard starting after winter and general no start troubleshooting!

[Alex]

I linked it from the Troubleshooting area of the wiki:

http://www.ninjette.org/wiki/My_Bike_Won%27t_Start

[azwillnj]

Originally Posted by n4mwd

Since you seem unwilling to accept that, its time to take it to the dealer or other qualified mechanic and let them fix the carbs for you.

It appears you are unwilling to accept any problem other than the carbs, furthermore, the solvent was designed to be used on aluminium, and I think shoving wires into a specially sized hole is more of a risk than sound waves.

</flame>

This weekend I worked on it a little more with my Dad this time, thought a fresh pair of eyes were in order. I tried to go out and start it to see what would happen and it wouldn't start. Cranked it for a while and it started backfiring again. We clipped an inductive timing light onto the coils for the hell of it.. spark was not firing at all. We pulled the plugs and looked at them, they were damp with gas so the carbs are feeding fuel. We grounded the plugs to the engine and the spark was firing VERY intermittently with the majority of time, at least 80% with no spark on both sides with both the old and eBay CDI boxes. I switched the coils back to the stock coils that came on the bike and the same thing was happening with the new and old CDI. We took the tank off, put the plugs back in, drained the bowls, and sprayed ether directly into the carb intakes while varying the throttle opening and amount of ether and nothing happened... nothing. Lending more evidence to a problem with the spark.

He decided to go through the service manual and test every part of the electrical system with the tests outlined in the manual. Everything checked out ok but the spark pickup was at the very low end of the impedance range.

While the plugs were out we checked the compression again after the most recent valve adjustment this time cyl 1 was 190psi and cyl 2 was 195psi, so the valve adjustment fixed the issue and increased the compression quite a bit.

We pulled the side cover to expose the stator and pickup in preparation for the 'new' one from eBay that's expected this week. I'll come back and post after installing the new stator, pickup, and refilling the oil and coolant... cross your fingers everyone, haha.

Thanks for the checklist csmith12, if the new pickup doesnt work I'll give that list a try.

Thanks for all the help,
Alex.

[csmith12]

Originally Posted by TnNinjaGirl

@csmith12 @Alex Sticky that wonderful informtation! Excellent tips for hard starting after winter and general no start troubleshooting!

Lol! If I would have known it was going to be linked to the wiki, I would have written it a lot differently. But it's cool and thanks.

[azwillnj]

Quick Update:

Sent the pickup and stator to the wrong address, I am picking it up this weekend so I'm going to try it Monday after work.

Yesterday I took the pickup off and moved it as close to the alternator as possible, put everything back together and I was getting a spark.. but still no ignition... even with ether.

What is the spark suppose to look like? Mine is kinda dull blue/purple and jumps around quite a bit. Could someone post a video of one of their plugs firing? That would be awesome.. I'll post one when I get home too.

[kevlar250]

The spark needs to be able to jump at least 3/8" in free air or it won't be hot enough to jump under compression. It should be a blue/purple color not yellow/orange. I'll bet you could pull those carbs blindfolded at this point, but let's hope you never have to do it again!

[azwillnj]

I replaced the entire side cover with the one from eBay Monday, stator, pickup coil and cover.. The spark is much brighter and seems to be more regular, I wish I had taken before and after videos but I didn't even think about it. It's worth noting that the original side cover took the impact exactly where the pickup coil was mounted, so maybe it got out of alignment somehow.

But alas.. it still won't start...

I put the front wheels up on a ramp and leveled the carbs X and Y axis put some clear tubing on the drains and checked the fuel level in the bowls. They were exactly in spec 0.5mm above the seam (according to the service manual).

I have been thinking about it and I am going to mess with the mixing screws tonight as a last resort but after that doesn't work I'm not really sure what else to do.

I am really angry I caved and wired out the carbs, before I did that the bike would at least idle, now it wont even start... and before someone says it, yes, I followed the instructions EXACTLY, both 1 & 2 & the video someone posted earlier in this thread.

Also, before someone else says it again.. I don't want to take it to a mechanic that charges $85/hr that will do all the same things I have already done 3x and tell me he needs more time to figure it out. At this point it almost might be worth it to cut my losses, sell the bike as is and try to find one that runs rather than bringing it to a mechanic.


Thoroughly frustrated,
Alex.