Some more twisties and freeway riding

[anacron]

Hit the twisties again today: Grizzly Peak -> Skyline -> Pinehurst -> Redwood and back. A handful of corners that caught me out but overall another good experience in the hills and more miles under the belt. Too many miles, in fact. I hit 1000 miles and still didn't schedule my break-in service. Having too much fun just riding.

Through the twisties, I noticed that my foot would start dragging on tight turns. I'm thinking about investing in some aftermarket rear sets to get more ground clearance. Throw in clip-ons as well?

Feedback from the road on stock tires seemed a little vague. I didn't get the feeling of rubber sticking to pavement but that certainly doesn't warrant tossing stock tires for Pirelli Diablo Rosso's.

Freeway riding is decent with the 300. I was lanesplitting aggressively and the bike had no trouble handling the freeway speeds and has a decent top speed . More than enough roll-on power to pass. Wind is the biggest concern and double bubble windshield is a must. Stock windshield is terrible for hiding from the wind.

[csmith12]

Originally Posted by anacron

Hit the twisties again today: Grizzly Peak -> Skyline -> Pinehurst -> Redwood and back. A handful of corners that caught me out but overall another good experience in the hills and more miles under the belt. Too many miles, in fact. I hit 1000 miles and still didn't schedule my break-in service. Having too much fun just riding.

Through the twisties, I noticed that my foot would start dragging on tight turns. I'm thinking about investing in some aftermarket rear sets to get more ground clearance. Throw in clip-ons as well?

Feedback from the road on stock tires seemed a little vague. I didn't get the feeling of rubber sticking to pavement but that certainly doesn't warrant tossing stock tires for Pirelli Diablo Rosso's.

Freeway riding is decent with the 300. I was lanesplitting aggressively and the bike had no trouble handling the freeway speeds and has a decent top speed . More than enough roll-on power to pass. Wind is the biggest concern and double bubble windshield is a must. Stock windshield is terrible for hiding from the wind.

If your foot is dragging, you have 3 options;
Are you riding with the balls of your feet on the pegs? If not.....
How is your BP? Are you using it to minimize lean angle needed?
Buy rearsets

Tire feedback vague? What pressures were you running?

Get that break in service done! Thought about doing it yourself?

[Motofool]

Originally Posted by anacron

..........Through the twisties, I noticed that my foot would start dragging on tight turns.............

[CycleCam303]

There are two places your foot might drag on the route. The super off camber turn right at the beginning of pinehurst on the Oakland side. I know I goof around a lot while I ride but going up that thing I take my foot off the peg and stick it out in front of the bike to avoid touching the ground. It's hard to avoid scraping depending on which lane you stay in.

@Motofool, it's a very very slow corner. Think parking lot speeds with a sudden elevation change. I believe the road goes from an 8.5% grade to something like 20% in just that corner and tapers off. Kinda like the entrance to a million dollar home driveway.

The only other corner is the one at the bottom of the pinehurst grade.

If you're scraping anywhere else we need to chat about your body position. You're learning quickly and you have good intuition. But I can't imagine you going fast enough to warrant hanging off.

[Motofool]

Originally Posted by CycleCam303

..........@Motofool, it's a very very slow corner. Think parking lot speeds with a sudden elevation change. I believe the road goes from an 8.5% grade to something like 20% in just that corner and tapers off. Kinda like the entrance to a million dollar home driveway..........

Now I see; thanks Cameron

How is that pinky healing?

[anacron]

@CycleCam303

Yup, those were the corners where I was dragging.

Can't say much about BP. I'm not trying to hang off, just positioning myself to be closer to the inside of the curve and keep that center of gravity low.

@csmith12

28 front; 32 rear. Just sticking to the owner's manual recommendation. Definitely thought about doing the first service myself, but I figured I'll take it in for the first one. I rode the bike hard so I'd like to see what the dealer says about it.

[csmith12]

Try bumping the front up a lb or two. Don't be afraid to play with it to see what you like, the stock IRC's kinda mask alot of feedback but depending on your sense of feel they do the job well enough on the street. Tire psi is a very personal bike setup item.

[anacron]

Originally Posted by csmith12

Try bumping the front up a lb or two. Don't be afraid to play with it to see what you like, the stock IRC's kinda mask alot of feedback but depending on your sense of feel they do the job well enough on the street. Tire psi is a very personal bike setup item.

What are the general rules of thumb for tire pressure?

Higher psi = faster transitions between leans but less road feel
Lower psi = slower transitions; more road feel

^^ Is that the intuition here?

Edit: Just bought some Vortex rearsets. I wanted a more aggressive feel anyway and now that there's a functional reason I figured I'd pull the trigger.

[csmith12]

Interesting question Abi, one with no correct answer, just general interpretations and preferences from riders with varying levels of experience.

What works for me;
I set the psi to what gets the tires up to temp and keeps them there (traction trumps all)
I adjust based on surface conditions and weather
I adjust a lb or two either way for feel

Would I try to add a lb to get the bike to turn faster? Sure, it's too easy not to give it a try. But depending on tire size/profile and bike geometry there are so many other factors to blanketly say that higher psi = faster transitions and lower psi = slower transitions.

For example; On my R6 when I run dunlops, I will run a bit higher than everyone else (in support of your intuition). Why? Because I am used to the turn in rate of the 250. But.... when I run the fat man cups (V profile), I am normally lower than everyone else (against your intuition). Why? Again I am used to the mushy front of the 250. Either way, my lap time is about the same. In my mind, I am up against the skill wall, not the bikes abilities limiting my performance.

On my 250, I run spot on with everyone else (in support of your intuition) when I run the stones, when I made the move to the rosso II's, I am a full 5lbs less in the front and 6lbs less in the rear than the norm (against your intuition). Interestingly, I prefer a 120 front on the 250. Why? It's the same size/pressures as my R6 is my current thinking. Could I get it to turn faster if I went to a 110, running similar pressures as everyone else? Maybe, my bike is set up differently and I am a different rider with different needs.

I apply the same logic when riding street as well. So going back to my original statement, psi is a very personal setup item on a bike and YMMV using someone else's numbers.

[anacron]

Thanks!

Certainly looking forward to making the bike my own, post break-in... Can't wait to throw on the rearsets!

[Motofool]

Originally Posted by csmith12

........
I apply the same logic when riding street as well. So going back to my original statement, psi is a very personal setup item on a bike and YMMV using someone else's numbers.

Excellent post, Chris !!!

Adi,

Think of tires' pressure as a compromise.
Those two cushions of air under you are an important part of the suspension (more spring effect than damping).

High pressure means:
1) Less area of contact patch and lateral deformation (steering is lighter at low speeds and more precise at high speeds, forward and lateral rolling find less resistance, less traction).
2) Lower temperatures (less traction and rubber's flexibility).
3) Less spring effect (harder suspension and finer feedback from the road surface).

To complicate things more, all that varies with steering geometry, tire's compound and internal structure, weight distribution, riding style, engine power, ambient temperature, traction of road surface, etc.

That is why rigidly sticking to the owner's manual recommendation is not what good riders do.
That is only the best compromise that the manufacturer has found for the average rider and conditions, favoring the comfort of the ride.

Originally Posted by anacron

... Can't wait to throw on the rearsets!

Rear-sets will be cool, but remember that the rider is the weakest link.
That is the one who needs intense modifications more desperately than any bike.

Please, please, Adi, consider this previous advice from this friend of yours:

Become proficient in emergency maneuvers

Originally Posted by csmith12

.........Either way, my lap time is about the same. In my mind, I am up against the skill wall, not the bikes abilities limiting my performance. ...........

Consider as well that the above humble statement is coming from a very skilful and experienced sport rider.
The rider requires much more work than the bike, start right away !!!

[csmith12]

Originally Posted by Motofool

Think of tires' pressure as a compromise.
Those two cushions of air under you are an important part of the suspension (more spring effect than damping).

Lol, that reminds me of my last races. I was bottoming out the front and it felt like I was gunna crash at any moment w/ WOT in a few of the corners that had bumps. So what did I do? Ride a few laps and systematically deflated the front tire 1lb at a time until it felt "connected". In other words, when out of suspension range, the tire became my suspension adjustment. I am no tire expert but I think the lower pressures allowed the tire to flex/conform to the road surface, thus aiding the fork's lack of ability to keep it planted.

It further gave me the confidence to go faster, flick harder and take lines that I wouldn't have while riding in a more conservative manner.

It took me 1/2 a track day to figure that out but those systematic changes got me on the podium 2 times the following day.

[Motofool]

Originally Posted by csmith12

...........It took me 1/2 a track day to figure that out but those systematic changes got me on the podium 2 times the following day.

For some mysterious reason, most riders are afraid of experimenting with tire's pressure; however, there is benefit in doing that and becoming familiar with your tires and their performance in different conditions.

Hand felt temperature of the carcase after a decent ride can give us a rough idea about how happy the tire is, how much of its performance we have been using, or if we have been asking too much from it.

Two-up and rainy conditions are good examples for street riding of dramatic changes in tire temperature that could use a pressure re-adjustment (up in the first case and down in the former).

[csmith12]

@anacron or @CycleCam303

Any pics or video of the more challenging corners? Off camber corners are fascinating, especially when they include elevation changes.

[tfkrocks]

When I got my 300, it was very much a new learning experience for me. Despite having ridden for a few years, it had been solely commuting; I just never went on rides for fun. After getting the 300, I felt more motivated to go meet people and go ride twisties. Mine was lowered 2" and I rarely scraped. I realized that I didn't have good body positioning and was leaning the bike way over more than I should've, causing the scraping. I haven't scraped at all riding my current 250. I would suggest trying to pay more attention to body position while riding. I'm no expert though so I can't read people while riding behind them or I'd probably be more help.

I suppose I should try pulling out some video...

Edit: @CycleCam303 By bottom of Pinehurst do you mean the turn onto Pinehurst?

This one of the ones you're talking about? Oops on me at this spot.

Link to original page on YouTube.

[anacron]

Originally Posted by Motofool

Rear-sets will be cool, but remember that the rider is the weakest link.
That is the one who needs intense modifications more desperately than any bike.

Please, please, Adi, consider this previous advice from this friend of yours:

Become proficient in emergency maneuvers

This advice is definitely appreciated and on my mind at all times. I don't want to bin the bike or myself any time soon and pretty much ride within my limits at all times. The toe scraping, I think is an artifact of poor body positioning: leaning the bike more than I should and high-gradient turns.

Any links to proper body positioning? For the most part I try to slide into the turn but maybe I'm not hanging off enough... and, as a result, leaning too much.

[anacron]

Originally Posted by tfkrocks

When I got my 300, it was very much a new learning experience for me. Despite having ridden for a few years, it had been solely commuting; I just never went on rides for fun. After getting the 300, I felt more motivated to go meet people and go ride twisties. Mine was lowered 2" and I rarely scraped. I realized that I didn't have good body positioning and was leaning the bike way over more than I should've, causing the scraping. I haven't scraped at all riding my current 250. I would suggest trying to pay more attention to body position while riding. I'm no expert though so I can't read people while riding behind them or I'd probably be more help.

I suppose I should try pulling out some video...

Edit: @CycleCam303 By bottom of Pinehurst do you mean the turn onto Pinehurst?

This one of the ones you're talking about? Oops on me at this spot.

Link to original page on YouTube.

Do you have a video of our ride from last sunday? I'd love to see it!

[CycleCam303]

Yea Rebecca that one and then the other one he scraped on is the corner at the bottom part of the road before it gets really steep and tight. That long round about corner.

I refer to all those points in terms of cycling haha. Those are all roads I trained on so pinehurst is just that climb and not really included as the twisty section to redwood.

That video does not do that corner justice haha. @csmith12 the motards can gap me on that road. I'll take a pic of what that elevation change is like. There's a reason Rebecca is totally in the opposite lane of traffic haha.

@anacron just kinda went for it which didn't surprise me. I'll write about that experience because it was definitely interesting and nerve racking for me. It's not a bad thing in his case just on my end im rolling the dice.

[rasta]

Originally Posted by tfkrocks

When I got my 300, it was very much a new learning experience for me. Despite having ridden for a few years, it had been solely commuting; I just never went on rides for fun. After getting the 300, I felt more motivated to go meet people and go ride twisties. Mine was lowered 2" and I rarely scraped. I realized that I didn't have good body positioning and was leaning the bike way over more than I should've, causing the scraping. I haven't scraped at all riding my current 250. I would suggest trying to pay more attention to body position while riding. I'm no expert though so I can't read people while riding behind them or I'd probably be more help.

I suppose I should try pulling out some video...

Edit: @CycleCam303 By bottom of Pinehurst do you mean the turn onto Pinehurst?

This one of the ones you're talking about? Oops on me at this spot.

Link to original page on YouTube.

Looks like some lovely mid-curve gravel there

[adouglas]

Tire pressures:

Rule of thumb I read somewhere... probably here.

Set tire pressure cold.

Go ride and get the tires warm (i.e. more than around the block)

Check pressure right away, while tires are still hot. The goal is for it to be 10% higher than cold.

If more than 10% higher, your pressures are too low.
If less than 10% higher, your pressures are too high.

[tfkrocks]

Originally Posted by anacron

Do you have a video of our ride from last sunday? I'd love to see it!

I have hours of footage lol. I'm not a video maker though and I pretty much only have rear footage from the ride anyway since I forgot to charge it beforehand.

Here's the turn onto Pinehurst

Link to original page on YouTube.

[csmith12]

Originally Posted by anacron

I try to slide into the turn

Interesting way to put it. What do you mean?

[CycleCam303]

Aww so you don't have footage of me roosting everyone? Haha or me "stunting" in Castro valley?

Tire pressures smire pressures. It's just street riding who cares. I run them high just for decent mileage. I'm tired of getting 3k out of my rear tires. No joke. I only adjust them if I'm going to ride with newbee and ktm ken when it comes to he street. Too low is bad. The front will roll and feel like its tucking. I run 30 30 or 31 32. I try to keep them in that ball park. The manufacterer's settings are fine. This is like talking with the redwood regulars talking about Rosso II Pirellis "melting" away on redwood. Those guys are slow. They aren't spinning up the rears. They are making things up about equipment holding them back. It's people simply not thinking for themselves or what's actually happening. Anacron you're an intuitive rider. Play with pressures and you'll figure out what works for you.

[tfkrocks]

Originally Posted by CycleCam303

Aww so you don't have footage of me roosting everyone? Haha or me "stunting" in Castro valley?

No sadly I can't show the world what a squid Cam is haha

[anacron]

Originally Posted by csmith12

Interesting way to put it. What do you mean?

Oh.. I don't mean sliding the bike into a turn. Sliding my butt into the turn, pretty much the same mechanics as hanging off except not hanging off (as Cam said, I'm not going nearly fast enough to warrant hanging off).

[CycleCam303]

Originally Posted by Motofool

Now I see; thanks Cameron

How is that thumb healing?

Ninja edit for ya!

There is a bit of swelling still where the thumb meets my palm. But I can open twist lids and button my helmet with the bad hand finally. I'd say 85% there.

[anacron]

Thought Cam would be interested.. I got clutchless up/down shifts working for me too. Its a neat trick when you're just cruising and want to sight see a little bit

[csmith12]

Originally Posted by anacron

Oh.. I don't mean sliding the bike into a turn. Sliding my butt into the turn, pretty much the same mechanics as hanging off except not hanging off (as Cam said, I'm not going nearly fast enough to warrant hanging off).

I c, I sorta figured you were not backin' it in.

[Motofool]

Originally Posted by CycleCam303

Ninja edit for ya!

There is a bit of swelling still where the thumb meets my palm. But I can open twist lids and button my helmet with the bad hand finally. I'd say 85% there.

Sorry for confusing the hurt phalange.

[Motofool]

Originally Posted by anacron

........Any links to proper body positioning? For the most part I try to slide into the turn but maybe I'm not hanging off enough... and, as a result, leaning too much.

Please, Adi, excuse me for being such a pest.
I take the safety and learning of new rider at heart.

Unless you are leaning left while downshifting, there is no reason for the tip of your left foot to drag on the road.
Develop the habit of supporting your feet on the peg only on the balls for anything other than shifting o rear braking or supporting the weight of the bike while stopped.

Learning general proper body position is good, but let's limit it to normal sitting position, with both balls of the foot on the pegs, straight back, far and scanning vision, relaxed arms and tender hand grips.
Holding the tank with your knees, specially for heavy braking, is a great habit to develop early.

IMHO, no new rider should learn and try in the streets the hang-off technique after only three months of street riding experience.
Leaning angle is a result of speed during cornering.
At this point, your overall street speed should be agile but not as high as to need maximum lean or compensating hanging off.

Before learning that, there are two important step stones to polish for safe and fast cornering:
1) Accurate estimation of entry speed for any corner.
2) Proper throttle control.
3) Keeping the steering and suspension as stable as possible.

http://forums.superbikeschool.com/in...?showtopic=310
http://forums.superbikeschool.com/in...?showtopic=540
http://forums.superbikeschool.com/in...?showtopic=116

You will become more confident, safer and faster after mastering those.
Higher speeds will naturally follow.
As a result, leaning angles will become more dramatic.
It only then will be time to learn hanging off.

The steeper you go, the better throttle control must be

Nevertheless, you could practice "hanging-off" your head and upper-body, leaving your rear planted on the seat and both knees against the tank.
The benefits of that street's technique are:
1) There is some hanging-off effect to reduce lean angle (not that your current moderate angles need it yet, but a convenient sub-product). Head and upper-body are heavier than the butt and inside leg.
2) It comes natural with counter-steering: push right to go right, push left to go left.
3) The face is pointing in the right direction, forcing the vision to focus far away and deep into the turn, as it should.

Many here may disagree, which is fine; that is just my approach to this subject.
In order to run faster as you grow, take baby steps now, while your senses get educated in the new feelings and forces of riding.

[anacron]

@Motofool

No not being a pest. The point of me posting on here is to solicit advice and I'll take what I get into consideration. I mean, at the end of the day I'm the one on the bike and I need to feel comfortable.

I'm gonna continue experimenting and allowing the bike to tell me what it likes and doesn't. I ride within my comfort level and only push it on road sections I am familiar with (the long, sweeping turns in Redwood - down in the valley for example).

The foot dragging happened when I left my foot under the clutch (so I can get on the gas and upshift at the exit point). I was more mindful during yesterday's ride to Concord (through Grizzly and Alhambra Valley) and didn't have issues with dragging.

I'm heading out right now to hit the Redwoods again. Lets see how things go...

Edit: Fun times in the twisties again. Not much to report other than no toe scraping and wasn't caught out by the corners this time. I ended with a ride up Grizzly Peak near Claremont to watch the sunset. Here's a pic.

[CycleCam303]

@csmith12 here is a pic of the toe scraping corner. It's not as steep as I thought it was. Coming up the hill is what catches most people off guard.

[csmith12]

I sure bet that corner is fun to square off on a sumo no doubt! We have a similar corner or two out my way but the camber is positive at apex for both of them.

The challenging parts with the one we have are;
Corner entrance is downhill from either direction
Corner exit is uphill from either direction
Grade is about as steep as the one in your pic
Corner exit dumps you into an uphill chicane in one direction
Corner exit falls off camber leading into the chicane

I will get a pic or video of it when I can. We normally are moving pretty fast through that section.

I also, think this would be a cool thread on it's own. "Challenging Corners". Imma make it right now.

[CycleCam303]

O cool. Yea I can find a handful of challenging corners. That'll be a fun thread. I'm impressed you still street ride. I have way more fun showing people around. Riding by myself turns into a self destructive pace in a matter of minutes, I just got back from a ride taking that picture and I just wasnt feeling it out there if you know what I mean.

[Motofool]

Originally Posted by anacron

..........Fun times in the twisties again. Not much to report other than no toe scraping and wasn't caught out by the corners this time. I ended with a ride up Grizzly Peak near Claremont to watch the sunset. Here's a pic.

Beautiful picture, Adi; thanks !!!