250@300 cc swap

Shinigami · April 8th, 2015, 07:06 AM

Here is my (hard to call it) teaser of an engine swap. Sorry for quality. I did post some description.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yLDMyqfRRAA

alex.s · April 8th, 2015, 07:41 AM

nice. what all did you swap over?

cuong-nutz · April 8th, 2015, 07:41 AM

Good job. How much did the whole swap cost you? Were you already fuel injected?

Shinigami · April 8th, 2015, 08:14 AM

Around 750$ total according to today's currency. I'm from Poland so we did get FI ninja stock. The stock map in ecu needs some adjustments but even in current form it's usable.
@alex.s - Not much, Engine with sprocket cover, stick coils, header, starter and breather hose.

garth285 · April 8th, 2015, 10:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shinigami

Around 750$ total according to today's currency. I'm from Poland so we did get FI ninja stock. The stock map in ecu needs some adjustments but even in current form it's usable.
@alex.s - Not much, Engine with sprocket cover, stick coils, header, starter and breather hose.

That 250 ECU actually has a bit more aggressive timing curve AND 250 more RPM, all you would need to do is adjust the fuel which you can do with a power commander if needed.

Looks good!

Shinigami · April 8th, 2015, 10:24 AM

Yeah, i did my homework on swap so I am aware of diffrent ignition timing. I will throw some piggyback in there coz it's 1- reversible 2- easier to retune multiple times.

garth285 · April 8th, 2015, 10:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shinigami

Yeah, i did my homework on swap so I am aware of diffrent ignition timing. I will throw some piggyback in there coz it's 1- reversible 2- easier to retune multiple times.

Yeah I'd keep that good timing unless you have bad fuel where you live.

Tune it up and rip it up!

alex.s · April 8th, 2015, 10:29 AM

has anyone done a carbed 300? thinking about it, it should be okay to just swap the motor and keep the 250 carbs and ignition and everything else... right? obviously some tuning required... how far different is the timing for the 300?

Shinigami · April 8th, 2015, 10:43 AM

Well if You have already carbed bike then You can swap engines, ditch sprocket speed sensor, o2 sensor (or slap in standalone wideband). But 300 has bigger intake diameter than 250, it's not a problem in my case, but You will probably feel that carbs are to small or not responsive enaugh.
EDIT: I don't anything about US separate ignition coils so I am thinking about stickcoil conversion which most likely has other conections.

The difference in ignition timing for FI models goes like this:
250: From 10° BTDC @1 300 r/min (rpm)
38° BTDC @6 000 r/min (rpm)
300: From 10° BTDC @1 300 r/min (rpm)
31° BTDC @7 000 r/min (rpm)
EDIT, the 250 carb spec:From 10° BTDC @1 300 r/min (rpm)
35° BTDC @4 000 r/min (rpm)

cuong-nutz · April 8th, 2015, 03:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by alex.s

has anyone done a carbed 300? thinking about it, it should be okay to just swap the motor and keep the 250 carbs and ignition and everything else... right? obviously some tuning required... how far different is the timing for the 300?

There's a guy or two on here that did the swap. maybe in the pregen area, if you may recall. Last closest thing was Bruce in his frankenstein swap.

Somchai · April 8th, 2015, 09:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by garth285

... AND 250 more RPM...

Shawn, please keep in mind that the 300 engine is more long-stroke than the 250, what means it doesn't like that high revs like the 250 does.

Somchai · April 9th, 2015, 03:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by alex.s

has anyone done a carbed 300? thinking about it, it should be okay to just swap the motor and keep the 250 carbs and ignition and everything else... right? obviously some tuning required... how far different is the timing for the 300?

brilliant idea Alex,
get the cams from Beet and the carbs from the link http://www.yoshimura-rd.com/prodcat/...dual-stack.asp - if possible as 35 or 36...
Bring the ignition timing above 42 degree and then ---> HHMMMMMM

Shinigami · April 9th, 2015, 05:50 AM

I am looking fro that pregen swap. Has anyone got a link ? BTW, reading this awesome material https://www.ninjette.org/forums/showthread.php?t=153624 gives me some fine ideas. I was thinking about 250cc 12,500 rpm supermoto since i got one spare. Last time I checked 500 ninja has the same mounting points and KLE500 was an enduro copy ^^ it's overweight though...

garth285 · April 9th, 2015, 05:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Somchai

Shawn, please keep in mind that the 300 engine is more long-stroke than the 250, what means it doesn't like that high revs like the 250 does.

Very true but most bikes can handle a little more RPM's anyways, hell they rev the 1000's 1,000rpm over stock most of the time now!

With the weak valve springs the 250/300's have though I'd be cautious as well!

Shinigami · April 9th, 2015, 06:09 AM

Both redline at 12'500 so it's not big of a deal since I never overrev

Shinigami · April 9th, 2015, 10:51 AM

So I went to the garage with right fairing and this is what i found out.
1. It does interfere with header on the middle (the point were both fairing meet)
2. The bigger clutch cover fits on milimeters
3. Oil filler cap sits nicely but the oil change is a bit tougher now.

bruce71198 · April 15th, 2015, 12:22 PM

The stock carbs bolt right on the 300 head. You'll probably find yourself right around 112 dyno Jet main.

EMSRacer07 · April 15th, 2015, 02:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cuong-nutz

There's a guy or two on here that did the swap. maybe in the pregen area, if you may recall. Last closest thing was Bruce in his frankenstein swap.

One was mine. I swapped the efi system and the stock 300 ecu. Pretty much a full swap. Still running strong on a 90' pregen.

The other guy never posted results but he was doing the carb swap and the electrical system so the ignition points would work from the older pregen motor

Shinigami · April 27th, 2015, 12:40 PM

I already did 1200km+ and so far my headers bent back to the state were I bought them of ebay equivalent and the damn trany has humors.

Sometimes the sloppyest shift goes bang on, no problem while the most carefull end up in miss shift and drop back to lower gear. Sometimes 4k rev shifting with passenger goes smooth, other times WOT clutchless shifts are ok. Plus it tends to do what 250cc did after about 50'000km. Downshifting from 4th to 3rd feels like gear engages than disengages for split second and then it's ok. Mainly I got problems from 1st>2nd 2rd>4th and rarely rest of combinations. On downshifts it's most of the time good. Clutch, no clutch, slow, fast, clunck, seamless. I think this gearbox deserves a photo in dictionary under "Intermittent".
I have few theorys
1 Smaller inlet diameter causes poor throttle response
2 250 fuel map for subthrottle is bad for 300cc
3 Something got loose in shifting mechanism

Shinigami · May 27th, 2015, 12:00 PM

So, the fairings do fit over 300 engine with some file and saw massaging.
I will take some better shots on the weekend
By now I ahve done 70'000km/43'750mil with:
around 4'400km with new engine
around 2'000km with fairings on. They do buzz from time to time but it might be because the right one does touch clutch cover.

https://www.bikepics.com/pics/2015/0...43089-full.jpg

Hero Danny · May 27th, 2015, 12:16 PM

Nice man! Isn't it possible to swap in a 500 motor into a 250? I thought I read that somewhere.

Shinigami · May 27th, 2015, 12:23 PM

There are 2 or 3 topics 'bout that and one or two YT videos but it's not a plug and play type of fun.

April 8th, 2015, 07:06 AM	#1
Shinigami ninjette.org member Name: Olgierd Location: Europe; Poland Join Date: Sep 2010 Motorcycle(s): Ninja 250R Posts: 12	250@300 cc swap Here is my (hard to call it) teaser of an engine swap. Sorry for quality. I did post some description. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yLDMyqfRRAA
	2 out of 2 members found this post helpful.

April 8th, 2015, 07:41 AM	#2
alex.s wat Name: wat Location: tustin/long beach Join Date: Sep 2009 Motorcycle(s): wat Posts: Too much. Blog Entries: 5 MOTM - Oct '12, Feb '14	nice. what all did you swap over? __________________________________________________

April 8th, 2015, 07:41 AM	#3
cuong-nutz RIP Alex Name: Cuong Location: Houston, TX Join Date: Apr 2011 Motorcycle(s): '10 250r, '09 265r Posts: A lot. Blog Entries: 2	Good job. How much did the whole swap cost you? Were you already fuel injected? __________________________________________________ HalfFast Racing Team Serving Greater Houston Area Riders:WFO Riders MotoHouston HPC CMRA Ride Smart Fastline Lone Star Track Days

April 8th, 2015, 10:29 AM	#8
alex.s wat Name: wat Location: tustin/long beach Join Date: Sep 2009 Motorcycle(s): wat Posts: Too much. Blog Entries: 5 MOTM - Oct '12, Feb '14	has anyone done a carbed 300? thinking about it, it should be okay to just swap the motor and keep the 250 carbs and ignition and everything else... right? obviously some tuning required... how far different is the timing for the 300? __________________________________________________

April 8th, 2015, 10:43 AM	#9
Shinigami ninjette.org member Name: Olgierd Location: Europe; Poland Join Date: Sep 2010 Motorcycle(s): Ninja 250R Posts: 12	Well if You have already carbed bike then You can swap engines, ditch sprocket speed sensor, o2 sensor (or slap in standalone wideband). But 300 has bigger intake diameter than 250, it's not a problem in my case, but You will probably feel that carbs are to small or not responsive enaugh. EDIT: I don't anything about US separate ignition coils so I am thinking about stickcoil conversion which most likely has other conections. The difference in ignition timing for FI models goes like this: 250: From 10° BTDC @1 300 r/min (rpm) 38° BTDC @6 000 r/min (rpm) 300: From 10° BTDC @1 300 r/min (rpm) 31° BTDC @7 000 r/min (rpm) EDIT, the 250 carb spec:From 10° BTDC @1 300 r/min (rpm) 35° BTDC @4 000 r/min (rpm)
	1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.

April 8th, 2015, 08:14 AM	#4
Shinigami ninjette.org member Name: Olgierd Location: Europe; Poland Join Date: Sep 2010 Motorcycle(s): Ninja 250R Posts: 12	Around 750$ total according to today's currency. I'm from Poland so we did get FI ninja stock. The stock map in ecu needs some adjustments but even in current form it's usable. @alex.s - Not much, Engine with sprocket cover, stick coils, header, starter and breather hose.

April 8th, 2015, 10:24 AM	#6
Shinigami ninjette.org member Name: Olgierd Location: Europe; Poland Join Date: Sep 2010 Motorcycle(s): Ninja 250R Posts: 12	Yeah, i did my homework on swap so I am aware of diffrent ignition timing. I will throw some piggyback in there coz it's 1- reversible 2- easier to retune multiple times.

April 9th, 2015, 05:50 AM	#13
Shinigami ninjette.org member Name: Olgierd Location: Europe; Poland Join Date: Sep 2010 Motorcycle(s): Ninja 250R Posts: 12	I am looking fro that pregen swap. Has anyone got a link ? BTW, reading this awesome material https://www.ninjette.org/forums/showthread.php?t=153624 gives me some fine ideas. I was thinking about 250cc 12,500 rpm supermoto since i got one spare. Last time I checked 500 ninja has the same mounting points and KLE500 was an enduro copy ^^ it's overweight though...

April 9th, 2015, 06:09 AM	#15
Shinigami ninjette.org member Name: Olgierd Location: Europe; Poland Join Date: Sep 2010 Motorcycle(s): Ninja 250R Posts: 12	Both redline at 12'500 so it's not big of a deal since I never overrev

April 9th, 2015, 10:51 AM	#16
Shinigami ninjette.org member Name: Olgierd Location: Europe; Poland Join Date: Sep 2010 Motorcycle(s): Ninja 250R Posts: 12	So I went to the garage with right fairing and this is what i found out. 1. It does interfere with header on the middle (the point were both fairing meet) 2. The bigger clutch cover fits on milimeters 3. Oil filler cap sits nicely but the oil change is a bit tougher now.

April 15th, 2015, 12:22 PM	#17
bruce71198 ninjette.org sage Name: bruce Location: northern illinois Join Date: Jan 2012 Motorcycle(s): Race bikes:08 Ninja 250,11 R6,16 ZX6,SV650.3 HD-1947,2-2003,2010. 1946 Indian and a lot of dirt bikes.2 Posts: 999	The stock carbs bolt right on the 300 head. You'll probably find yourself right around 112 dyno Jet main.

April 27th, 2015, 12:40 PM	#19
Shinigami ninjette.org member Name: Olgierd Location: Europe; Poland Join Date: Sep 2010 Motorcycle(s): Ninja 250R Posts: 12	I already did 1200km+ and so far my headers bent back to the state were I bought them of ebay equivalent and the damn trany has humors. Sometimes the sloppyest shift goes bang on, no problem while the most carefull end up in miss shift and drop back to lower gear. Sometimes 4k rev shifting with passenger goes smooth, other times WOT clutchless shifts are ok. Plus it tends to do what 250cc did after about 50'000km. Downshifting from 4th to 3rd feels like gear engages than disengages for split second and then it's ok. Mainly I got problems from 1st>2nd 2rd>4th and rarely rest of combinations. On downshifts it's most of the time good. Clutch, no clutch, slow, fast, clunck, seamless. I think this gearbox deserves a photo in dictionary under "Intermittent". I have few theorys 1 Smaller inlet diameter causes poor throttle response 2 250 fuel map for subthrottle is bad for 300cc 3 Something got loose in shifting mechanism

May 27th, 2015, 12:00 PM	#20
Shinigami ninjette.org member Name: Olgierd Location: Europe; Poland Join Date: Sep 2010 Motorcycle(s): Ninja 250R Posts: 12	So, the fairings do fit over 300 engine with some file and saw massaging. I will take some better shots on the weekend By now I ahve done 70'000km/43'750mil with: around 4'400km with new engine around 2'000km with fairings on. They do buzz from time to time but it might be because the right one does touch clutch cover. https://www.bikepics.com/pics/2015/0...43089-full.jpg

May 27th, 2015, 12:16 PM	#21
Hero Danny Inline 4!!! Name: Danny Location: MA Join Date: May 2014 Motorcycle(s): 2008 CBR600rr, 1987 KLR 250 Posts: A lot.	Nice man! Isn't it possible to swap in a 500 motor into a 250? I thought I read that somewhere. __________________________________________________ Be careful. Remember you are invisible

May 27th, 2015, 12:23 PM	#22
Shinigami ninjette.org member Name: Olgierd Location: Europe; Poland Join Date: Sep 2010 Motorcycle(s): Ninja 250R Posts: 12	There are 2 or 3 topics 'bout that and one or two YT videos but it's not a plug and play type of fun.

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