Next dumb question - body position transitions

[adouglas]

Today's topic: Assuming the position.

Say you're approaching the end of the straight. You need to do three things that seem to conflict with one another.

1) Grab the tank tightly with your knees to keep from sliding forward under braking.
2) Move your body to the inside before tipping in (both Code and Parks make specific mention of not moving as you're turning the bike).
3) Stay loose on the bars.

So...

Grabbing the tank with both knees is easy if you're centered on the bike.

But what about when you've moved off-center in preparation for tipping into the turn?

You're still under heavy braking, right? So how do you keep from sliding forward? You can push with your arms but that's not right, correct?

Superheroes like Rossi drop the inside leg while still under braking, so therefore are not squeezing the tank.

What's going on here?

In my limited track experience (three whole days, one of which was in the wet) the bad habit I kept catching myself at was putting too much force on my inside arm. I think I'm using that arm to move me around on the bike and keep me from sliding forward.

[csmith12]

Dang... I need to do that video on seating position. Lemme see what I can do.

Bottom line.... If your braking hard enough to raise the rear tire off the tarmac, then there is gunna be some weight on your arms. I just don't see any way around it unless your glued to the seat. Sure, stompgrip and such helps but it's no miracle cure.

[Bigballsofpaint]

Its still so early on in our track careers that i try to just get all my braking done while straight up. But, since i know exactly the track your speaking of and seeing all the trailbraking that goes on there I think the approximate answer is get MOST of the braking done while straight up, still grasping the tank. Then when you start trailing off the brakes and starting your tip in you move since now you wont be fighting momentum as much pushing you forward.

Thats what im going to work on at least, tell me how wrong i am track masters.

[accumack]

At about the 11:30 mark they talk about knee to knee.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t3dA1x8c0F4

[csmith12]

Originally Posted by Bigballsofpaint

Thats what im going to work on at least, tell me how wrong i am track masters.

EDIT: Example problem from rider that I heard this year: "Every time I turn in, the rear feels wobbly, unstable, loose or disconnected. I think I need a new tire or my suspension adjusted?"

Lemme ask you this... What upsets the bike more? Getting off the seat while on the gas or on the brakes?

[Bigballsofpaint]

Originally Posted by csmith12

EDIT: Example problem from rider that I heard this year: "Every time I turn in, the rear feels wobbly, unstable, loose or disconnected. I think I need a new tire or my suspension adjusted."

Lemme ask you this... What upsets the bike more? Getting off the seat while on the gas or on the brakes?

Brakes for sure. Which is why the back would be unstable anyway since it has very little weight if any on it while braking.

[csmith12]

Originally Posted by Bigballsofpaint

Brakes for sure. Which is why the back would be unstable anyway since it has very little weight if any on it while braking.

Awesome, so when do you move your bum over?

[Bigballsofpaint]

Originally Posted by csmith12

Awesome, so when do you move your bum over?

Well thats why Andrew asked! If im moving over before braking, how do you squeeze the tank or not weight the bars while braking.

I havent gotten to actually practice this seriously, im sure it will come down to what feels right to me since i mentally know what i SHOULD be doing. This is a few more trackdays away though, right now i need to get more comfortable being a tall lanky man on my little 250.

[cbinker]

I was taught to set up the turn by sitting to the inside of the upcoming turn, never have your bottom straight in line with the bike, always offset. Hold with the outside thigh, i tend to push on the tank with my inside knee till the last moment of turn in then i drop my shoulders and knee to the inside of the turn while pushing the inside bar away from me.

[alex.s]

there is a way. and it doesn't make sense until you try it. with the bottom of your foot, pull the peg toward your butt with your outside leg. this action pushes your leg into the tank, secures your ass to the seat, and stiffens your outside flank. leaving your arms free to flop around and your inside leg loose to drag or kick or whatever you want. while you are pushing back like this during braking, almost all your weight goes to your outside thigh on the tank. keep your butt back a little so its the middle of your leg cause noone likes hitting the jimmies.

[adouglas]

Ah, interesting!!!!

At the last track day one of the instructors was talking about pushing your outside knee into the tank by putting pressure on the peg, and I've read elsewhere about that too.

I believe that's why sportbike tanks are wider at the top... to give you something to push against. My lower legs are too short to reach it with the stock pegs, which is why I just ordered some rearsets.

It had not occurred to me that doing so would do a lot to prevent you from sliding forward. That explains what I see when I watch the MotoGP guys at work.

[csmith12]

^^^ reread here from 2013. 4th paragraph, describes what alex is talking about. Since the 250 doesn't have a lip as pronounced as most 600's, it's a bit harder to do.

[alex.s]

a lot of people put that stompgrip stuff on the tank sides to help but i like the flat kind otherwise i wind up putting little dimple marks on my knees from pushing too hard

[csmith12]

Originally Posted by accumack

At about the 11:30 mark they talk about knee to knee.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t3dA1x8c0F4

Knee to knee is awesome for linked corners and chicanes but I use it on every corner, every time. Any clue where the technique helps on any given corner that is not a chicane or linked to another?

[adouglas]

Originally Posted by csmith12

^^^ reread here from 2013. 4th paragraph, describes what alex is talking about. Since the 250 doesn't have a lip as pronounced as most 600's, it's a bit harder to do.

Wow... great read!!!

Having been on the track I can appreciate what's going on... and I realize how much of a noob I am at this stuff. You're writing about a whole different plane of existence.

[Gurk]

This is one of the biggest conflict between some schools I know of. Weight on arms and braking. The statement : "NEVER HAVE WEIGHT IN YOUR HANDS" is simply... wrong.

I'll ask you this first. Why do you think MotoGP riders have arm pump and have surgery especially coming from lower classes?

Break forces are way higher in bigger classes. But more importantly, they use their arms while braking. Tell Stefan Bradl he's doing it wrong

Here's how it's done:
1) Never sit in the middle of the seat. Always be off to the side the next turn is. The only exception is a huge long straight where you wanna tuck in perfectly.

2) Let's say you're on the front straight. You're approaching the corner. You brake hard. Keep ALL YOUR WEIGHT in your palms. PALMS. not fists. Don't grab the handle bars tight. You'll realize that when you put all your weight in your palms you'll still be able to wiggle your fingers freely. Which means you can control your clutch and brake smoothly.

3) Since you have no weight on your legs or feet, you're free to position your butt cheek, feet, downshift. I seriously have 0 problem lifting my butt half an inch and putting it anywhere on the seat under heavy braking. Why? cause there's no weight on my legs.

4) As you approach the corner and start the lean, you're ready to take off brake pressure. As you take brake pressure off you are taking away weight off your palms. It's not an on off switch right?

Weight transfer from your bike's front to center to rear.
Weight on your palms transferring to your legs.
Your lean angle.

These are all variable and depend on each other. The more lean you have, the less brake pressure you should have. Less brake pressure = Less weight on your palms. So in full lean you have no brake. You're ready to add throttle. You have no weight in your arms/hands.


Take it or leave it

[alex.s]

Originally Posted by Gurk

2) Let's say you're on the front straight. You're approaching the corner. You brake hard. Keep ALL YOUR WEIGHT in your palms. PALMS. not fists. Don't grab the handle bars tight. You'll realize that when you put all your weight in your palms you'll still be able to wiggle your fingers freely. Which means you can control your clutch and brake smoothly.

this is bad advice and introduces unwanted steering movements into the mix any time you start sliding or doing anything that isn't exactly what you want.

Originally Posted by Gurk

3) Since you have no weight on your legs or feet, you're free to position your butt cheek, feet, downshift. I seriously have 0 problem lifting my butt half an inch and putting it anywhere on the seat under heavy braking. Why? cause there's no weight on my legs.

also, basically everyone who is anyone says to get your body changes done before you do any kind of braking. trying to move your body while you are braking AND putting your weight on your bars is a recipe for a crash.

[Gurk]

Originally Posted by alex.s

this is bad advice and introduces unwanted steering movements into the mix any time you start sliding or doing anything that isn't exactly what you want.




also, basically everyone who is anyone says to get your body changes done before you do any kind of braking. trying to move your body while you are braking AND putting your weight on your bars is a recipe for a crash.

40 trackdays. 2 crashes

How about you?

[allanoue]

[csmith12]

Mr. Fist, you sure can pick the topics.

[Gurk]

Originally Posted by alex.s

also, basically everyone who is anyone

Ken Hill, YCRS, Bradley Smith....

I know they are all clueless....

Also first thing I said is there's different schools of thought on this. That was my attempt to not stir the pot. But here we have some guy who attended what? 5 races in his life and crashed out 3 out of those telling me I'm giving bad advice. If there's a rule around here like whatever anyone says that goes against CSS is wrong, let me know. I'll stop posting.

[alex.s]

Originally Posted by Gurk

40 trackdays. 2 crashes

How about you?

how many seasons of racing you got?

i saw you were doing 2:10s on your 600 at chuckwalla? i think that's what i do on the 250.

[Gurk]

Originally Posted by alex.s

how many seasons of racing you got?

i saw you were doing 2:10s on your 600 at chuckwalla? i think that's what i do on the 250.

So you compare your laptime with a guy who's been to chuckwalla 5 times in his life. 2:06 btw.

When people ask my Buttonwillow lap time, I hesitate to say 2:06. Cause that's my best time ever. One of. My pace is more like 08-09.

So given the fact that you crashed almost as many times as you raced on track, maybe you should stop bragging about those "10's"

Get real Alex. You got a race licence. Raced a few races. To me it looks like you're using all that just to brag about it. I really don't care what you do or say. But if you're gonna put yourself some high horse because you've attended 3-4 races and then cried about your crashes like a little bitch and told people how they still haunt your dreams and you're scared, maybe you should stop talking down to people.

[adouglas]

Originally Posted by csmith12

Mr. Fist, you sure can pick the topics.

I used to be a journalist. We had a saying... "If you aren't getting sued by someone, you're not doing your job right."

[alex.s]

Originally Posted by Gurk

So you compare your laptime with a guy who's been to chuckwalla 5 times in his life. 2:06 btw.

When people ask my Buttonwillow lap time, I hesitate to say 2:06. Cause that's my best time ever. One of. My pace is more like 08-09.

So given the fact that you crashed almost as many times as you raced on track, maybe you should stop bragging about those "10's"

Get real Alex. You got a race licence. Raced a few races. To me it looks like you're using all that just to brag about it. I really don't care what you do or say. But if you're gonna put yourself some high horse because you've attended 3-4 races and then cried about your crashes like a little bitch and told people how they still haunt your dreams and you're scared, maybe you should stop talking down to people.

[Gurk]

Originally Posted by alex.s

Got nothing eh? Thought so.

We're done here.

[alex.s]

Originally Posted by Gurk

Got nothing eh? Thought so.

We're done here.

no no, keep going!

[csmith12]

Here Andrew, here is the real deal, along with some common sense and hopefully we can move back to the thread topic.

Your questions;

Bum off the seat and still grip with both knees? Sure mang! You're off the seat (not too much though), one knee will already against the tank, the other will reach over... I promise. Cross your legs both ways to see if you have the flexibility, the strength to hold under hard braking in that position is another matter altogether.

One legged braking? At some point of experience and comfort during track riding, they will be comfortable enough to hold a lock with one leg and the forward, inner thigh. It comes along for the ride when a rider comes to terms the front is not going anywhere while hard on the brakes. Usually the other knee pokes out in a triangle shape prepped for knee draggin'.

MotoGP style one legged braking? At some point during hard core racing and many high skilled track day riders, they will be comfortable enough to hold a super hard lock with one leg but it's not gunna be enough at the end of those long straights where the speeds push 180mph, unless the rider has Olympic gymnast leg strength. The rider can do whatever he wants with the other leg, knee out, rossi dangle, whatever... I can only speculate that the forces are similar to the pic below;



Even in my turn 7 writing, I said...

My knees solidly dug into the side of the tank deny all forward movement as I continue toward my corner entry speed.

Notice this.... I didn't say anything about weight on my arms. Why? Because at those g's I don't have the leg strength to hold my weight + force. I do know, that I have little to no pressure on the bars after flicking it in though.

Is there a right or wrong? I dunno...

[subxero]

Originally Posted by Gurk

This is one of the biggest conflict between some schools I know of. Weight on arms and braking. The statement : "NEVER HAVE WEIGHT IN YOUR HANDS" is simply... wrong.

I'll ask you this first. Why do you think MotoGP riders have arm pump and have surgery especially coming from lower classes?

Break forces are way higher in bigger classes. But more importantly, they use their arms while braking. Tell Stefan Bradl he's doing it wrong

Here's how it's done:
1) Never sit in the middle of the seat. Always be off to the side the next turn is. The only exception is a huge long straight where you wanna tuck in perfectly.

2) Let's say you're on the front straight. You're approaching the corner. You brake hard. Keep ALL YOUR WEIGHT in your palms. PALMS. not fists. Don't grab the handle bars tight. You'll realize that when you put all your weight in your palms you'll still be able to wiggle your fingers freely. Which means you can control your clutch and brake smoothly.

3) Since you have no weight on your legs or feet, you're free to position your butt cheek, feet, downshift. I seriously have 0 problem lifting my butt half an inch and putting it anywhere on the seat under heavy braking. Why? cause there's no weight on my legs.

4) As you approach the corner and start the lean, you're ready to take off brake pressure. As you take brake pressure off you are taking away weight off your palms. It's not an on off switch right?

Weight transfer from your bike's front to center to rear.
Weight on your palms transferring to your legs.
Your lean angle.

These are all variable and depend on each other. The more lean you have, the less brake pressure you should have. Less brake pressure = Less weight on your palms. So in full lean you have no brake. You're ready to add throttle. You have no weight in your arms/hands.


Take it or leave it

you do realize how that makes no sense...right?

And i'm not even talking about right or wrong riding, just sheer physical impossibility

[Sirref]

Link to original page on YouTube.

here's nick&ken's approach. I like this approach a lot. There's no way to avoid some pressure on the bars during the heaviest portion of the braking while still straight up and down

[csmith12]

^^^^ duh... Your gunna make a fantastically fast rider one day Ben.

[csmith12]

Originally Posted by subxero

you do realize how that makes no sense...right?

And i'm not even talking about right or wrong riding, just sheer physical impossibility

Hmmmm, In Gurk's defence, I (and talented others) have gotten off the seat pretty late (after the fact) and all has worked out, I credit this to the bike being better than me/us. While I don't like the feeling, some may dig it. I ain't convinced that it's "sheer physically impossible." 2 seconds in the brake zone is like.... forever mang!!! And one can do alot in 2 seconds. I can link some vids where I blow a few corners (ask @lowcel ) to show how late you can get without any real big deal (imho) as long as you don't panic, pass some liter bikes and still have a good time. Again being real like Gurk says, it takes training and repetition for a rider to get off the seat BEFORE braking or later without issue... why? Think about it...

Although, from my experience... this is not what top pack A group track day riders, nor top level racers do, but hey... I aint nobody to judge, I have seen some real sh*t....



All I am saying is when you think humans (riders) have reached the limit, you are proven wrong, someone always ups the bar.

[Sirref]

Originally Posted by csmith12

All I am saying is when you think humans (riders) have reached the limit, you are proven wrong, someone always ups the bar.

I was watching a supercross race yesterday where this quote was used to describe villopoto's rise, as the person who upped the bar in supercross.

[csmith12]

^^^ ikr

It's normally some kid or the likes that don't know no better.

[cuong-nutz]

Rearsets will make all the difference as you can find the sweet spot that will give you the leverage you need to support your weight and transitioning.

I was taught the method that cbinker and Alex.s stated. In order to do what cbinker stated you need to perform the footwork that Alex.s mentions.

It's hard to add to a csmith post lol

[csmith12]

Originally Posted by cuong-nutz

It's hard to add to a csmith post lol

Naw man... you did just fine. Andrew needed rersets to set the ergo's to where he is comfortable. ie... keeping the bike better than he is, right on schedule as I see it. Also.. I asked for augmentation to my comments.

Originally Posted by csmith12

Knee to knee is awesome for linked corners and chicanes but I use it on every corner, every time. Any clue where the technique helps on any given corner that is not a chicane or linked to another?

Still the open question.

[Sirref]

Originally Posted by csmith12

Knee to knee is awesome for linked corners and chicanes but I use it on every corner, every time. Any clue where the technique helps on any given corner that is not a chicane or linked to another?

I was just re-reading the thread and realized that no one bit this question so I will

In a normal, non chicane/linked, corner using the knee to knee technique of pulling your lower body back onto the seat by using the outside thigh/knee allows you to put your body back in line for the straight portion of track without using your arms at all. This means that your upper body is free to slowly raise the bike back up with the inside hand and add more power on corner exit at the same time producing a better drive out of the corner and into the straight.

[csmith12]

Pretty much yea.... somebody is using their noodle.

[Sirref]

OH!
I forgot to mention, there is a difference in approach to knee to knee if you're entering a straight vs a chicane/linked corner. When you bring your butt back on the seat you bring it back centered for the straight, however for a chicane you bring it farther to allow for a more seamless transition into the second corner.

[alex.s]

i know it doesn't really help but i always try to get my knee back up on the bike asap after a turn.