Front suspension

[Bigballsofpaint]

Im looking for some insight from the track gurus here. While i know i can do nothing and be fine for my first track day, like most of us ive still tried to gather parts to prepare. The one thing im up in the air about is the front suspension. I have pre load adjusters already. I keep reading to get springs and emulators, but if i can avoid tearing the forks off and still get a good setup out of it, i would like to just get a set of springs and change the oil in the front. From what i have gathered RT .80 springs are what i should run, im about 185 geared up. I have a GSXR shock for the rear and will order the dog bones this week. Thought? Springs and pre load adjusters will be a good upgrade? Or go for the gold and the use of emulators will make that big of a difference?

The reason im considering this is because i have not installed the pre load adjusters, so since i have to take the caps off already, it makes sence to do the springs and oil. While doing the emulators i need to tear into the forks completely.

[csmith12]

For your first track day, spend your $$ on tires and any gear that is lacking. As I have said before and imho, you can ride the crap outta the stock bits until you get within 5 or so seconds of lap records.

If you can't do all the upgrades all at once, go for oil first, then springs, then emulators. Has the emu's make the key difference in lap pace for me? No, the springs and a good preload adjustment (sag setting) is the key. Tweaking out the movement of fluid is the final step and may change from track to track and as you get faster.

So don't sweat it too much and go have fun. As long as you listen to the bike, it will tell you what it needs and you can go from there.

You doing the Thompson run in July with Mr. Fist?

[Bigballsofpaint]

Originally Posted by csmith12

For your first track day, spend your $$ on tires and any gear that is lacking. As I have said before and imho, you can ride the crap outta the stock bits until you get within 5 or so seconds of lap records.

If you can't do all the upgrades all at once, go for oil first, then springs, then emulators. Has the emu's make the key difference in lap pace for me? No, the springs and a good preload adjustment (sag setting) is the key. Tweaking out the movement of fluid is the final step and may change from track to track and as you get faster.

So don't sweat it too much and go have fun. As long as you listen to the bike, it will tell you what it needs and you can go from there.

You doing the Thompson run in July with Mr. Fist?

I wanted to do thompson in July since you and andy will be there, but we have a big BBQ and party the 19th, so i dont think ill be able to make it. Maybe ill take Monday off work though so i can still meet up with you.

I already did new tires, i have the full hotbodies kit, doing the rear suspension and since im already opening the front up for the pre load adjs, i figured whats another 100 for springs. Id really like to snag some clip ons and springs, and pretty much call it a day (by day i mean year or 2). Then ill work on brakes and power next year.

[sharky nrk]

springs and spacers and fluid - $100 well spent

[csmith12]

Go for the springs then. They will come with some pvc that you can cut to get to your preload goal.

Hope you can make it out Jay! I am already halfway ready myself. Just have to come to terms with spending the extra big face for the Tony's membership. :\

[subxero]

You can do preload adjusters with out much fuss. Do one at a time and you wouldn't even have to hang the front end just leave the forks in the clamps and there would be enough resistance to keep the front end up with just one tube at a time.

Springs could be done the same way but you would want to get the oil changed out as well and that you would have to take the forks off the bike because you would need to fully collapse the forks to set the oil level. And with the front wheel and fender on I don't think it would be possible and at that point you might as well just take the forks out of the clamps

For emulators the forks have to come off the bike no questions asked.

[Bigballsofpaint]

Ill have to see if theres a DIY to change the oil, i thought it was a simple drain and fil to xx mark. I didnt think the forks would need to be taken off. I have a Pit bull triple mount for the front, so thats not an issue. I have the rear suspended from the ceiling right now. Ordering some dog bones to raise 1.25 right now.

[subxero]

I can't remember but for some reason I feel like you set the oil level with the tubes fully collapsed. Theoretically you could do it with them extended but you would need the numbers from someone else who already did it that way.

You could always leave forks in the clamps, take out springs (make sure you don't lose any oil keep it all in the tube) once spring is out, measure oil height and then drain the oil, clean flush blah blah blah, put oil in, pump forks work air out. blah blah then set oil height to previously measured height? Makes sense in my head. then put springs in ect... GTG!

pumping the forks will be a little more of a work out with everything together but shouldn't be to bad

[cbinker]

i did springs and emulators a couple weeks ago, and the feel and stability under braking are amazing. I have only taken the bike on the road so far, Track in 10 days!

[mgentz]

Start with springs. Add as budget allows.

[cuong-nutz]

I'll preach it some more: Springs and fork oil are the most bang per buck in upgrades for these bikes next to tires.

[mania]

Originally Posted by cuong-nutz

I'll preach it some more: Springs and fork oil are the most bang per buck in upgrades for these bikes next to tires.

+1
Sonic springs with proper spacer length & better oil in mine made such a huge difference.

[mgentz]

Originally Posted by cuong-nutz

I'll preach it some more: Springs and fork oil are the most bang per buck in upgrades for these bikes next to tires.

[cbinker]

I dont know if its been mentioned, but you should get some springs. race tech offers decent springs, and all you need is your weight and they will calculate the rate for you:

http://racetech.com/ProductSearch/2/...20250R/2008-12

[Bigballsofpaint]

To change the oil, it is measured with the spring in right? I figure once i take the caps off i will measure what the oil it is since 140mm is stock, siphon all the oil out, pull the springs and then go in reverse. Fill back to the measured amount with the new oil. Would that be alright?

[subxero]

Originally Posted by Bigballsofpaint

To change the oil, it is measured with the spring in right? I figure once i take the caps off i will measure what the oil it is since 140mm is stock, siphon all the oil out, pull the springs and then go in reverse. Fill back to the measured amount with the new oil. Would that be alright?

won't work if you are changing springs, as the different springs will not have the same displacement, plus you could not syphon out all the oil, oil in lower tubes. Just pull the front wheel axle and drain out the bottom.

measure with springs out if swapping springs but still not ideal.

If you are not changing the springs then you could measure oil level with springs in before you take the springs out, then after reassembled with same spring return oil to that level but you are doing just that, what if the oil level was off? you have nothing to go on would be the same if you measure with springs out. But I guess if you knew the full travel of the compressed tube you could use that number and add it to the recommended oil level numbers.

Springs out, tubes compressed whole way. I forget what suggest oil level is, maybe 120-135mm from top of tubes, that sounds close at least im sure you could dig it up on the forum somewhere. But with tubes not compressed maybe full compression travel is lets just make up a number 300mm. Oil height from top of tube would then be 420-435mm for the non compressed tube. Theoretically it makes sense.

[Bigballsofpaint]

140mm is stock and what racetech recommends to stay will. I will just go to a 10w oil and .80 springs. I guess im just confused on how all this measureing takes place, ill have to dig a little more to find out.

[subxero]

you measure the distance the oil is from the top of the fork tube. 140mm from top of tube when tube is fully compressed.

I just got a large syringe cut a length of tube 130mm, slightly over filled tube. Put syringe tube in fork sucked out oil until no more would come out as hose only reaches 130mm presto 130mm oil height.

Like I mentioned your RT springs will not have same displacement as your OEM springs so you will have to measure your stock level with the springs out, just don't lose any oil when removing the springs as that will make your reading inaccurate, given no seal leaks ect... you shouldn't have lost any oil so the reading you get should be a good enough indicator of stock oil level 140mm you said, but again you will technically be assuming stock oil level was correct to begin with.

What ever you get for the distance from top of tube, just set your oil level back to that and you should be fine, make sure you pump forks to work out air and let things settle to get an accurate reading with new oil.

[mania]

Originally Posted by Bigballsofpaint

To change the oil, it is measured with the spring in right? I figure once i take the caps off i will measure what the oil it is since 140mm is stock, siphon all the oil out, pull the springs and then go in reverse. Fill back to the measured amount with the new oil. Would that be alright?

Best way is to slide legs out of clamps & do a proper change.
This will allow you to tip & rinse out legs getting all old oil out.

Oil is measure with spring out & leg fully collapsed

When I recently changed my springs to Sonic Springs
Rich at Sonic recommended oil to be
15w for street & 20w for race

Oil filled 115mm from top of collapsed with no spring in fork leg
120mm from top if using emulators

This setup has resulted in an excellent front end in my case

[Somchai]

The oem oil level (fully compressed) for the Ninja 250 is 108 +/- 2mm and for the 300 it is 100 +/- 2 mm with 10w oil.
Wilbers recommends for a 37 mm fork: 140 mm = soft / 125 mm = medium / 110 mm = stiff.
At least you have to find the best value by yourself.
Good luck

[Bigballsofpaint]

going to order the springs tomorrow. How much fork oil will i need? Im planning on using 10wt, is that heavy enough? Im 175 without gear, and getting RT .8 springs.

[rojoracing53]

Originally Posted by cbinker

I dont know if its been mentioned, but you should get some springs. race tech offers decent springs, and all you need is your weight and they will calculate the rate for you:

http://racetech.com/ProductSearch/2/...20250R/2008-12

don't follow RT spring Calc unless your slow, it's just to soft for us really fast people.

[Bigballsofpaint]

I am slow, what calculator should i use to be really fast. And how much oil does a really fast guy need

[mania]

Originally Posted by Bigballsofpaint

I am slow, what calculator should i use to be really fast. And how much oil does a really fast guy need

BBOP.....RT is great but so is Sonic Springs & a bit cheaper too.

Rich over at Sonic (owner & racer) answers your questions himself & knows his stuff
You can use his calc but also he will quickly answer your email or call. Great guy
I dealt with him & I am all the way over in Asia now.

He gives you great advice on spring rates, oil levels & spacer lengths

Here is his calculator
http://www.sonicsprings.com/catalog/...e9159541c43e68

[cbinker]

Originally Posted by mania

BBOP.....RT is great but so is Sonic Springs & a bit cheaper too.

Rich over at Sonic (owner & racer) answers your questions himself & knows his stuff
You can use his calc but also he will quickly answer your email or call. Great guy
I dealt with him & I am all the way over in Asia now.

He gives you great advice on spring rates, oil levels & spacer lengths

Here is his calculator
http://www.sonicsprings.com/catalog/...e9159541c43e68

That is the same rate i got from racetech.

[omesh]

Agreed with this.

I'm about 150lbs without gear and I went to .80 sonic springs after talking with Rich (owner). My ninjette mostly sees only the track now. The difference in braking is night and day vs stock. Makes setting up for a turn coming in hot from a straight much better. I'm running Torco-15 oil. I'm running 115 oil level, but after my most recent track day, I think Im going to drop it down to 120 (after discussing with Rich) in order to utilize more travel in the front.

Also, I immediately bumped the rear stock up to the max (5) notch in a poor-man's attempt to match the new front stiffness.

Originally Posted by mania

+1
Sonic springs with proper spacer length & better oil in mine made such a huge difference.

[csmith12]

Welcome Omesh! Where do you ride track/race? Is it safe to assume VIR?

[sharky nrk]

Originally Posted by Bigballsofpaint

going to order the springs tomorrow. How much fork oil will i need? Im planning on using 10wt, is that heavy enough? Im 175 without gear, and getting RT .8 springs.

nope ...... heavier, probably at least 15wt

[adouglas]

Jay:

A tip on getting the caps off the forks:

Go to Harbor Freight and buy two things:
A cheap gear puller, and
A set of dental picks

If you don't you'll waste hours and scratch the living chit out of the caps trying to compress them enough to remove the circlips.

When I got my preload adjusters I spent most of a Saturday morning just trying to get the effin' caps to compress, and failed. When I got back from HF, the job was done in about five minutes.

You can borrow my stuff if you like, but frankly it's so cheap that you'd spend more in gas just coming to get it.

You'll be doing this with the forks still on the bike, right? That matters for the gear puller since you need to hook it over the top triple. Also, you need to suspend the front end, of course.

On oil level... I do believe somebody like Motion Pro makes a simple gadget that makes measuring and filling precisely very easy. Not expensive IIRC. Look it up... you'll probably be able to duplicate it without much trouble.

[sharky nrk]

^^ I actually found it pretty easy to compress the caps if I put a decent size deep wheel socket on the cap and pushed with my palm. Easy enough to hold that way and then I could just pop the clip with a small flat head.

[adouglas]

Didn't work for me... I'm a wimp, I guess.

[Bigballsofpaint]

I watched a dvd for the caps, i dont think ill need a puller but we will see. Im not too worried, i have a pit pull front stand for the bike too. I have to call sonicsprings since they never emailed me back. Prob thought my email was spam

[mgentz]

Originally Posted by sharky nrk

^^ I actually found it pretty easy to compress the caps if I put a decent size deep wheel socket on the cap and pushed with my palm. Easy enough to hold that way and then I could just pop the clip with a small flat head.

this is what I do. If you cannot do it by your muscle, use a ratchet strap wrapped around the fork lengthwise.

[DCMoney]

Originally Posted by sharky nrk

^^ I actually found it pretty easy to compress the caps if I put a decent size deep wheel socket on the cap and pushed with my palm. Easy enough to hold that way and then I could just pop the clip with a small flat head.

I use 8mm T-handle alen in the divot, then a dental pick to get snap ring out.

[omesh]

Ahoy hoy! I'm in N.VA (Dc area). Ive ridden: NJMP (Tbolt & Lightning) and NCBike. Plan on hitting up Summit Point this year at some point, and probably Pocono, and maybe VIR Patriot.

I'll be at NCBike this coming Saturday if any of you ninjette riders are going to be there!

Originally Posted by csmith12

Welcome Omesh! Where do you ride track/race? Is it safe to assume VIR?

[Bigballsofpaint]

Anyone have the number for sonic springs? I havent gotten an email from either address ive sent. If i dont hear from him soon ill just pony up the extra money for RT parts, i need to get the bike finished and running in a month.

[csmith12]

Originally Posted by omesh

Ahoy hoy! I'm in N.VA (Dc area). Ive ridden: NJMP (Tbolt & Lightning) and NCBike. Plan on hitting up Summit Point this year at some point, and probably Pocono, and maybe VIR Patriot.

I'll be at NCBike this coming Saturday if any of you ninjette riders are going to be there!

Would love to go to NCBike, sadly there is no chance this season. I am completely booked up for track/race time. Do you ever venture over toward OH?

[mania]

Originally Posted by Bigballsofpaint

Anyone have the number for sonic springs? I havent gotten an email from either address ive sent. If i dont hear from him soon ill just pony up the extra money for RT parts, i need to get the bike finished and running in a month.

Surprised as Rich responded so quick to my emails...
I never called as I am in Asia

Try this as maybe the web interface is having problems?
I used this & Rich responded in lass than 24hrs
webmaster@sonicsprings.com

Or Rich's email
rdesmond@sonicsprings.com


PS: I see a few years back someone posted his reason online
as to why he does not post ph# anymore

I've tried to just give it out on an individual basis. When we started I had it on the web site and I ended up on the phone all day, mostly in idle chatter. I'm a lot to blame for that, I enjoy talking to people about bikes and suspension, but the result was that nothing else got done. We're a small operation and it was just too many man hours to waste. E-mail works a lot better, I can double check stuff easier before I say something, the customer has a record of what I said (instead of calling back 3 times with "what was that oil level again?", and I think overall I give better answers to people's questions.

[ez12a]

i just put sonic springs in my SV today (they shipped monday, arrived friday). Took some time for them as they were out of stock but rich was very responsive when i sent them an email inquiring on my order. The front end is noticeably different.

[subxero]

pushing the caps down was non issue, figuring out the best way to hook the ring to tease it out took a little time. Now that i know what works of me it all takes about 2 minute to get both off