Better brakes??

[LittleRedNinjette]

So my boyfriend took my bike out for a little test ride. The only thing negative he had to say was the brakes are not so good...

At least comparing it to his bike. not having much experience on anything but the 300 and the newgen before i don't know anything else...

So what would be some good affordable upgrades? I know there's a lot of options out there...

I don't plan one going on the track with the bike, just commuting and weekend pleasure rides.

What have you guys done, or what would you suggest?

[N-m]

Can you use the current brakes at their peak level of performance? Work on this immediately even if the answer is yes.

Don't forget to ride what you have for you and not for anyone else. Relative to other bikes it is arguably impossible to have great brakes since you have a single caliper up front and rubber lines. Arguably, or theoretically, whichever word you prefer.

[allanoue]

@Alex I think was happy with just new pads

[Boosted139]

Changing to steel braided brake lines will change the feel of the brakes completely (in a good way). In all reality the 250 has plenty of braking power, but the stock lines (rubber) have a lack of feeling.

[DaBlue1]

Originally Posted by LittleRedNinjette

So my boyfriend took my bike out for a little test ride. The only thing negative he had to say was the brakes are not
...At least comparing it to his bike.

....So what would be some good affordable upgrades? I know there's a lot of options out there...

I don't plan one going on the track with the bike, just commuting and weekend pleasure rides.

What have you guys done, or what would you suggest?

It's not fair trying to compare the brakes on the Ninja 250/300 to a supersport bike. They are in 2 different leagues, namely in design and purpose.

Honestly there are not as many options as you may think. There's really only a hand full that have been tried and tested and proven to be worthy.

For what you plan to do with your bike, the stock set up will work just great. Just ask anybody who's locked up their stock brakes and went down because of it. However there is always room for a little improvement.

Stainless steel brakes lines will always offer better braking power and longevity compared to the stock rubber hoses.

Slightly better than stock rotors and pads coupled with he SS brake lines make for a very good upgrade. Easy to do, affordable, available and proven.

Calipers are another story. There are optional calipers available, and some riders have even done custom installations of different calipers. The downside is there may or may not be adequate support services offered with some of these items.

Check this website out for options that are available outside the U.S.
http://japan.webike.net/ps/#!p.m=6444&p.c=1010&p.sk=1

[LittleRedNinjette]

Originally Posted by Boosted139

Changing to steel braided brake lines will change the feel of the brakes completely (in a good way). In all reality the 250 has plenty of braking power, but the stock lines (rubber) have a lack of feeling.

Originally Posted by DaBlue1

It's not fair trying to compare the brakes on the Ninja 250/300 to a supersport bike. They are in 2 different leagues, namely in design and purpose.

Honestly there are not as many options as you may think. There's really only a hand full that have been tried and tested and proven to be worthy.

For what you plan to do with your bike, the stock set up will work just great. Just ask anybody who's locked up their stock brakes and went down because of it. However there is always room for a little improvement.

Stainless steel brakes lines will always offer better braking power and longevity compared to the stock rubber hoses.

Slightly better than stock rotors and pads coupled with he SS brake lines make for a very good upgrade. Easy to do, affordable, available and proven.

Calipers are another story. There are optional calipers available, and some riders have even done custom installations of different calipers. The downside is there may or may not be adequate support services offered with some of these items.

Check this website out for options that are available outside the U.S.
http://japan.webike.net/ps/#!p.m=6444&p.c=1010&p.sk=1

I am leaning to the new lines, and pads sound good to start (and hopfualy end. lol)

Oh, and he doesn't have a supersport... Its a Buell.

[DaBlue1]

Originally Posted by LittleRedNinjette

....he doesn't have a supersport... Its a Buell.

The bike with a brake as big as the front wheel.

[LittleRedNinjette]

this is true, but its just the rotor. Just helped him put some new(ish) rotors on to.

[Alex]

Yup - upgraded pads will be a noticeable improvement. (and cheap)

[N-m]

For a frame of reference I just ordered the following from MotorcycleSuperstore.com:

EBC extreme for front pads HH - $68.99
EBC organic rear pads - $$27.99
Galfer SS front brake line - $53.99
Galfer SS rear brake line - $49.99
Free shipping. Ordered Sunday, most arrived on Tuesday with front pads arriving by week' send.

I have ridden factory brakes for about two thousand miles now and do not ride at their maximum level of performance but I am working on that. I would love to change all of this at once but I am tempted to change one thing at a time to try and subjectively measure performance improvements. I wish I had a way to objectively measure performance improvements but you know what they say about wishing.

[ninjamunky85]

SS brake lines and HH pads are a nice upgrade. Check out eBay for brake lines, I got some venhill ones for a good price.

[LittleRedNinjette]

Cheep is good for me rite now!

That's not to bad for all that...

I was looking for the apex lines on ebay but didn't see any. Is Galfer >/= Apex?

[ForceofWill]

Dang $67 for EBC at superstore? I got mine here.

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00...?ie=UTF8&psc=1

[Alex]

Those are different pads (standard HH vs. the Extreme).

[JohnnyBravo]

There are guys up on the State Farm borrow better braking sign

[Sirref]

I upgraded to EBC HH front pads when I got my new tires and got brake fade really quick, going to install my stainless steel brake lines tomorrow while I'm waiting on my helmet to ride and see how much that changes things.

[Alex]

Brake fade on the street seems quite unlikely with new EBC HH pads. It's more likely they were either dragging after install, or they weren't fully bedded in. SS lines wouldn't help if they really were fading.

[Sirref]

well it's just that they felt firmer when I got them and when I got home they felt weaker. It was probably an install mishap or something like that if they wore quickly because I didn't push the envelope at all that ride (new tires)

[ninjamunky85]

Sounds like they need bled to me.

[Sirref]

Originally Posted by ninjamunky85

Sounds like they need bled to me.

If this is the case then they'll feel much better after I've installed my SS brake lines.

[N-m]

Originally Posted by Alex

Those are different pads (standard HH vs. the Extreme).

Here are the actual pads I have:

http://www.amazon.com/EBC-Extreme-Pe...ords=epfa129hh

While a slightly better deal, also with free shipping, I was able to save time by buying everything at one place. This is generally worth my time and $10.00 difference. If the price difference was 50% I would have rolling my eyes.

[Alex]

Wait - you realize this is in the 300 section, right? Yours are for the pre-gen bike, if I'm reading the part number correctly.

[Sirref]

I may have gotten the extreme didn't pay attention to the package, got what was recommended by the mechanic.

[ForceofWill]

Do the extreme need to be real hot to start biting? Havnt seen a comparison.

[N-m]

Originally Posted by Alex

Wait - you realize this is in the 300 section, right? Yours are for the pre-gen bike, if I'm reading the part number correctly.

You mean they changed the pads as well?

My mistake. Sorry for the confusion.

[cuong-nutz]

I remember reading a review a while back somewhere that they were great for track but may not be suitable for street for someone who isn't accustomed to the braking feel. They do require some heat/pressure for them to bite.

[DeltaFoxtrotZulu]

Even after all the bleeding I did, my brakes were still a bit soft. But a nice trick I ran into was using a zip tie to hold your brake lever down overnight. Firmed things up amazingly. It helps force the air up to the reservoir.

[cbinker]

what is "his" bike?

[LittleRedNinjette]

Buell lighting, think it's a 09. He does have a 6 piston caliper but the size of the rotor shouldn't matter.

His bike is about the same wight as the 300.

So I guess I'll start with the HH pads. Any one brand better than another?
And then I'll keep an eye out for another group buy on the Apex SS lines...

[mania]

Up Front I am running EBC HH pads + SS brake line
Also added a 320mm front rotor

I know it really shouldn't make much difference with stock caliper but it does seem to have helped quite a bit. Could just be a leverage increase? not sure

Next step if I continue will be a 4 pot caliper. But to tell you the truth I am quite happy with them as is. Of course visually the 2 pot looks tiny on that platter of a front rotor now

[dfox]

Brakes brakes brakes.


this topic comes up a lot, but it ultimately boils down to a few basic facts

- You can easily lock up the front and rear wheels on our bikes with the stock brakes. Increasing braking "capacity" is a moot point, because the tires are the weak link. Developing your ability to use the brakes you have is much more important.
- What the 250/300 lacks is brake feel and heat dispersion. A small single rotor has limited surface area to cool under heavy brake use. If you find your bike suffering from "brake fade" during spirited driving, you may want to consider a dual rotor setup.
- Upgrading pads, and fluid will make your brakes feel more firm. Your tires and braking technique are still the weak link in the braking ability of the bike.
- A larger caliper only decreases the force you need to exert on the lever, and may give a minor amount of additional heat dispersion. More brake power for less lever movement. You can still achieve the same braking force with a smaller caliper (all other things equal).
- Supersports with dual rotors are beneficial for heat dispersion when riding extremely hard, to the point that your rotors start to glow. For day-to-day street riding, a dual setup is overkill.
-Rubber lines aren't as bad as everyone makes them out to be. They're not as "soft" as everyone would like you to believe. They are typically reinforced internally with materials that have a higher tensile strength than stainless steel. A while back I came across some testing done on stainless and internally reinforced rubber lines, and the rubber was actually "stiffer" when tested with compressed fluids. That article could be incorrect, or misleading, I can't find it now. Most people also upgrade pads and flush brake fluid when they install stainless lines and make the assumption that the brake lines made the difference, when it's a combination of things. Where I think stainless lines have an advantage is in overall strength, they're going to be more resistant to gravel or debris. For a commuter bike, something that doesn't see a track, I'd have a hard time recommending stainless lines.

bottom line, if you want better brake feel, get better pads, and flush the fluids. If that's not enough, try stainless lines (may or may not help). If you're getting brake fade... consider a larger rotor or dual rotors. The stock setup is still capable of outperforming most tires (can't speak to super sticky race tires), and upgrades are for feel or heat dispersion only. You can only stop as fast as your tires let you.

[LittleRedNinjette]

Originally Posted by mania

Up Front I am running EBC HH pads + SS brake line
Also added a 320mm front rotor

I know it really shouldn't make much difference with stock caliper but it does seem to have helped quite a bit. Could just be a leverage increase? not sure

Next step if I continue will be a 4 pot caliper. But to tell you the truth I am quite happy with them as is. Of course visually the 2 pot looks tiny on that platter of a front rotor now

I've heard that brand mentioned before... I'll look into them.

BTW, i like the graphics on your bike!

@dfox, thanks for that info. I never realy thought the stock brakes are necessarily bad. Its all i've known anyway.
I was more curious what everyone else though after what my boyfriend said.
New tires are another story. I want to get some better ones but just can't justify replacing tires with a lot of life left.

[gleyfman]

Just wanted to make sure it is clear to some of the novice riders here:
New EBS brake pads will require significant "brake-in" period.
Per manufacture as long as 400-600 miles. During this period they will actually perform worse than your stock. Actually pretty horrible for the first 100 miles or so. Would not recommend till you feel comfortable on your bike!

[mania]

Originally Posted by gleyfman

Just wanted to make sure it is clear to some of the novice riders here:
New EBS brake pads will require significant "brake-in" period.
Per manufacture as long as 400-600 miles. During this period they will actually perform worse than your stock. Actually pretty horrible for the first 100 miles or so. Would not recommend till you feel comfortable on your bike!

I know they say that but in my experience with them
They were never worse than stock even from day one.

Also by heating them by dragging the brake a fraction & doing
some spirited hard stops I felt they were quite good & far better than
stock after just a few rides.

[spooph]

Originally Posted by LittleRedNinjette

I am leaning to the new lines, and pads sound good to start (and hopfualy end. lol)

Oh, and he doesn't have a supersport... Its a Buell.

It has been mentioned... but the ZTL brakes on the Buell is some of the BEST brakes in the industry... You're kind of comparing a VW Beetle to an F1 races as far as brakes are concerned.

Originally Posted by dfox

Brakes brakes brakes.


this topic comes up a lot, but it ultimately boils down to a few basic facts

- You can easily lock up the front and rear wheels on our bikes with the stock brakes. Increasing braking "capacity" is a moot point, because the tires are the weak link. Developing your ability to use the brakes you have is much more important.
- What the 250/300 lacks is brake feel and heat dispersion. A small single rotor has limited surface area to cool under heavy brake use. If you find your bike suffering from "brake fade" during spirited driving, you may want to consider a dual rotor setup.
- Upgrading pads, and fluid will make your brakes feel more firm. Your tires and braking technique are still the weak link in the braking ability of the bike.
- A larger caliper only decreases the force you need to exert on the lever, and may give a minor amount of additional heat dispersion. More brake power for less lever movement. You can still achieve the same braking force with a smaller caliper (all other things equal).
- Supersports with dual rotors are beneficial for heat dispersion when riding extremely hard, to the point that your rotors start to glow. For day-to-day street riding, a dual setup is overkill.
-Rubber lines aren't as bad as everyone makes them out to be. They're not as "soft" as everyone would like you to believe. They are typically reinforced internally with materials that have a higher tensile strength than stainless steel. A while back I came across some testing done on stainless and internally reinforced rubber lines, and the rubber was actually "stiffer" when tested with compressed fluids. That article could be incorrect, or misleading, I can't find it now. Most people also upgrade pads and flush brake fluid when they install stainless lines and make the assumption that the brake lines made the difference, when it's a combination of things. Where I think stainless lines have an advantage is in overall strength, they're going to be more resistant to gravel or debris. For a commuter bike, something that doesn't see a track, I'd have a hard time recommending stainless lines.

bottom line, if you want better brake feel, get better pads, and flush the fluids. If that's not enough, try stainless lines (may or may not help). If you're getting brake fade... consider a larger rotor or dual rotors. The stock setup is still capable of outperforming most tires (can't speak to super sticky race tires), and upgrades are for feel or heat dispersion only. You can only stop as fast as your tires let you.

All of this is really good stuff however....

You're cheapest option is just ride more.... I say that because foresight (anticipating a situation and looking ahead), paired with solid skills on heavy breaking (practiced in a parking lot) will help you in the long run much than anything else....

What I didn't see in the responses is why you want to upgrade the brakes? Is it because you're boyfriend said they weren't as good as his Buell? Not trying to knock the dude, he's obviously looking out for you and good on you two working toward a safer bike, but, if you're goal is to put shiny bits on your bike, go for it. If however you're goal is to be able to brake better....

1.) Go to a parking lot and practice hard stops.

2.) Bleed your brakes like this: Buy brand new DOT 4 motorcycle brake fluid. Leave it on the shelf for 2 weeks. Get the bike ready to bleed brakes. VERY CAREFULLY open the bottle making sure not shake it. VERY SLOWLY swirl it for 3 turns like you would something about to explode. Then tap it carefully, and only about 3mm off the counter surface. This will break loose any micro-bubbles that have been dissolved in the brake fluid. Let it sit for 10min. Then go about bleeding your brakes. When you pour the new fluid in, do so EXTREMELY CAREFULLY making sure not to slosh the bottle around. All of this extreme carefulness will keep air from dissolving in your brake fluid and make sure to put pure fluid with no air in it, into your lines.

Keep flushing fluid through and filling from the new bottle. Feel free to flush the majority of container of brake fluid. Close up the system by putting the reservoir cap on with slightly too much fluid in the reservoir, and bleed one more push from the lever out. This will keep as much water and air out of the reservoir as is possible. Throw the remainder of new brake fluid away - at an approved site. Brake fluid accumulates water and once a container has been opened it's good for about 1 week on the shelf before it gets too much water in it to be useful anymore...

Unless you're on the track or racing around like crazy needing to quickly stop because you didn't plan the situation very well, this will be more than enough...

But, if it'll make you feel better, lines and EBC HH or alike pads are also good options.. Just never let the machine be an excuse of skimping on practice and education. Sorry for the long post, but brakes are third in line of the most important things to keep you safe. First is your brain and attention, second is your helmet.

[gleyfman]

Certainly not my experience. Very curious.
I have an ABS equipped model, is yours standard?
Also according to manufacture recommendations "heating up" and "spirited" barking is very much not recommended.
http://ebcbrakes.com/articles/beddin...ds-and-rotors/

Cheers!

Originally Posted by mania

I know they say that but in my experience with them
They were never worse than stock even from day one.

Also by heating them by dragging the brake a fraction & doing
some spirited hard stops I felt they were quite good & far better than
stock after just a few rides.

[mania]

Originally Posted by gleyfman

Certainly not my experience. Very curious.
I have an ABS equipped model, is yours standard?
Also according to manufacture recommendations "heating up" and "spirited" barking is very much not recommended.
http://ebcbrakes.com/articles/beddin...ds-and-rotors/

Cheers!

In Asia we had two models for 2013 one with & one without ABS
I would not have ABS on a bike but that is just my personal preference.

Could be that is not allowing heating up your pads in the way they described on the link? "get the brakes deliberately hot"
Although I imagine you could still slightly drag the front with good results


We have to remember a brake manufacturer would be extra cautious
in written instructions etc.
But at the same time on your link you see for track use they say 2 or 3 laps of gentle use That is quite a difference from 4-600 miles & a track rider will be much harder/ more spirited on brakes etc. Hence the quicker bedding in.

If you are using your motorcycle for a trackday or race event, bedding in the new pads is even more important. 99% of racers use sintered pads for trackday and race events because they do not require chemical bedding as in blue above, but these pads still need to be matched to the rotor and therefore a bedding in process of 2-3 laps gentle brake use gradually increasing brake pressure and load after that has been completed is advisable.

PS: My bike was standard when I installed the EBC pads
I have since changed to a 320mm Rotor & SS lines.

[gleyfman]

Makes sense. I think that is the difference between ABS and non-ABS model.
I also have SS lines.
No problem now, after a brake-in period I put it through the cycle of 10 subsequent stops from 60 and got it smoking

But in the beginning they been like a butter. I was literally rolling forward like nothing with brake fully squeezed!

Originally Posted by mania

Could be that is not allowing heating up your pads in the way they described on the link? "get the brakes deliberately hot"
Although I imagine you could still slightly drag the front with good results

[mania]

Originally Posted by gleyfman

Makes sense. I think that is the difference between ABS and non-ABS model.
I also have SS lines.
No problem now, after a brake-in period I put it through the cycle of 10 subsequent stops from 60 and got it smoking

But in the beginning they been like a butter. I was literally rolling forward like nothing with brake fully squeezed!

Yes that could be the difference
Also I would imagine it depends on what condition your rotors were in
when you changed. Mine were still quite new so did not have much glazing from the stock pads leaving material behind.

Maybe your new sintered pads not only broke in but cleared the previous pads glazing? I am not certain & guess it would depend on how much of your stock pads you had used for that to be a possibility.

[salcuta88]

I bought sintered pads from D2Moto and they work fine for me. $20 for both wheels. They're cheap but I have no complaints.