Upgraded front suspension, front end tuck

[Ginganinja]

So one of my fork seals was leaking a couple weeks ago, so in the process of tearing down the forks to replace that, I decided to upgrade the springs so the front end doesn't dive under braking anymore. I put the .75 sonic springs in and followed the directions for preload and fork oil setting that was provided in the instructions with the springs to the T.

Anyways, I finally got around to taking the bike out yesterday and I love that the front end feels stiffer under braking, but now when I go to turn in it feels like the front end is going to tuck and slide out from under me. Anybody else have this experience as well?

It could be that I'm just not used to the new springs yet and I need to give it a little time to feel comfortable with them, or maybe its the combo of stiffer front springs with the soft rear shock that's making it feel this way.

Also, I do intend on upgrading the rear shock sometime in the near future, I'm just doing some diligent research on what I want to upgrade to.

[csmith12]

Give it some more time. With stiffer springs, more feel through the bars is gunna be part of the outcome. The more your relax, the better it will feel.

Now... on the flip side, what you're feeling could be the result of an unbalanced suspension. Which if you're like me, is worse than 2 soft shocks. Because at least on the stock bits, they both were equally soft and balanced out that way.

And a final though... now that you have upgraded the front, don't add lean plus throttle at turn in. It will create the EXACT feeling your talking about. Especially, if your rebound is on the faster side.

[jkv45]

Even though it was too soft and not very well dampened, it was probably better balanced as it was.

Correcting the front has upset the balance, and has made the cycle sit and turn differently. Most likely it's sagging in the rear more than the front, so you are getting a "chopper" effect that is causing the lack of confidence (and more rear weight bias) during cornering.

Do some research and get a good shock on the rear. IIRC you may want one that is slightly longer than stock to lift the rear slightly.

[Ginganinja]

Originally Posted by csmith12

Give it some more time. With stiffer springs, more feel through the bars is gunna be part of the outcome. The more your relax, the better it will feel.

Now... on the flip side, what you're feeling could be the result of an unbalanced suspension. Which if you're like me, is worse than 2 soft shocks. Because at least on the stock bits, they both were equally soft and balanced out that way.

And a final though... now that you have upgraded the front, don't add lean plus throttle at turn in. It will create the EXACT feeling your talking about. Especially, if your rebound is on the faster side.

i think this is exactly what I'm feeling. The rear is the stocker so when I go through the corner the rear wants to suck up since its softer, while the front suspension with the stiffer springs is still pushing out to grip the road.


What do you mean by don't add lean plus throttle at turn in? So just turn in slower while rolling on the throttle lighter? That goes against everything I've learned about riding. Can you explain this more. Maybe it's just too early and I need some coffee to figure it out.

Originally Posted by jkv45

Even though it was too soft and not very well dampened, it was probably better balanced as it was.

Correcting the front has upset the balance, and has made the cycle sit and turn differently. Most likely it's sagging in the rear more than the front, so you are getting a "chopper" effect that is causing the lack of confidence (and more rear weight bias) during cornering.

Do some research and get a good shock on the rear. IIRC you may want one that is slightly longer than stock to lift the rear slightly.

Thanks for confirming that. Looks like the next step is just to upgrade the rear suspension. I don't like it the way it is now, it is not very confidence inspiring. I guess i'll stick to riding the r6 until i can pick up a rear suspension. I have read that to about picking up a longer rear shock to lift the rear, it gives better ground clearance while leaning I'm assuming. But what other advantages would that have, just matching the new sag in the front? Sorry if it's a noob question, it's my first time doing suspension on a bike. I guess I'll keep reading to see what I can dig up.

[csmith12]

Originally Posted by Ginganinja

what other advantages would that have, just matching the new sag in the front?

First, there are a few recent threads on suspension floating around. Do a search and you should find lots of good info from many riders of 250s, 300s and such. For additional points of view. Depending on the shock you choose, you may have greater adjustability in a few areas. High/Low speed damping and rebound. Being able to adjust the high speed rebound can work wonders for street riders on rough pavement.

Originally Posted by Ginganinja

What do you mean by don't add lean plus throttle at turn in? So just turn in slower while rolling on the throttle lighter? That goes against everything I've learned about riding. Can you explain this more. Maybe it's just too early and I need some coffee to figure it out.

As far as skills go, lemme ask you a couple questions.

When do you need the most capabilities from your front tire?
When should you start your throttle roll?
When do you want weight on your front wheel?
When do you want to take some weight off your front wheel?

[Ginganinja]

Originally Posted by csmith12

First, there are a few recent threads on suspension floating around. Do a search and you should find lots of good info from many riders of 250s, 300s and such. For additional points of view. Depending on the shock you choose, you may have greater adjustability in a few areas. High/Low speed damping and rebound. Being able to adjust the high speed rebound can work wonders for street riders on rough pavement.



As far as skills go, lemme ask you a couple questions.

When do you need the most capabilities from your front tire?
When should you start your throttle roll?
When do you want weight on your front wheel?
When do you want to take some weight off your front wheel?

Thanks! I have been searching, I'm still building my repertoire of suspension information before I choose. I was looking at the newgen stocker or the gsxr 600 shock. Affordable is the keyword, and the both look like they shouldn't be more the $50 for the mod.

When do you need the most capabilities from your front tire?
Not sure if you're asking in general or me specifically, but me specifically, I use the bike for medium aggressive canyon riding, as well as commuting. And you need them during braking and cornering.
When should you start your throttle roll?
After braking, as you turn in
When do you want weight on your front wheel?
During braking and entering into the corner
When do you want to take some weight off your front wheel?
As you exit the apex of the turn

Did I pass the test? Sorry I kid. Thanks for the help, I've never really thought about it, i just ride.

[csmith12]

Originally Posted by Ginganinja

When should you start your throttle roll?
After braking, as you turn in

Your quiz answers are close but need a lil bit of work.

Let's start with the one that is giving you the trouble. Try this next time you're out;

See your markers for the line you selected for a given corner
Set your entry speed
Turn the bike onto the desired line through the corner
After steering is complete and the bike is on line, then start your throttle roll (this can happen before apex )

Basically when you roll, your taking weight off the front and transferring it to the rear. Doing this while turning doesn't feel very pleasant for most riders. A lil bit more weight on the front for turning should give you a good and planted feel for your turn in (steering inputs), not to mention keeping some weight off that saggy rear.

Go give this a try at a pace your comfortable with, and then try the quiz again.

[Ginganinja]

Originally Posted by csmith12

Your quiz answers are close but need a lil bit of work.

Let's start with the one that is giving you the trouble. Try this next time you're out;

See your markers for the line you selected for a given corner
Set your entry speed
Turn the bike onto the desired line through the corner
After steering is complete and the bike is on line, then start your throttle roll (this can happen before apex )

Basically when you roll, your taking weight off the front and transferring it to the rear. Doing this while turning doesn't feel very pleasant for most riders. A lil bit more weight on the front for turning should give you a good and planted feel for your turn in, not to mention keeping some weight off that saggy rear.

Go give this a try at a pace your comfortable with, and then try the quiz again.

I'll try it out a bit later today and see what the differences are. Thanks for the help csmith. I'll be back to ace the quiz this afternoon.

[Ginganinja]

Originally Posted by csmith12

See your markers for the line you selected for a given corner
Set your entry speed
Turn the bike onto the desired line through the corner
After steering is complete and the bike is on line, then start your throttle roll (this can happen before apex )

Ok so I took the bike out earlier but wasn't able to get back to the forum to give feedback. I did what you said, it made perfect sense, and it worked, the bike did feel more stable in the front but in order to accomplish this, my overall speed was down and i felt like i was putting around.

I went to a couple turns i know well and ride often with both my bikes. Before my sonic spring upgrade I was able to carry alot more speed into the turn and roll onto the throttle earlier, whereas if i go into the turn at the same speed it still feels like it will tuck. Albeit, if I do as you said, csmith, and go into the corner off the throttle and at a slower speed, then turn in and roll on the throttle the front end does feel more stable and doesn't give the tucking sensation. But this is at a slower speed and doesn't allow me to ride it confidently at as an aggressive pace as i would like.

At this point, I'm chalking it up to an unbalanced front and rear suspension and will take it easy on the bike until I can upgrade the rear shock

[csmith12]

Do what you need to do get your confidence back in the bike. I say "as long as the bike is better than me, we will get along just fine".

But do come back to the skill part when you are ready. Stability and traction should equal confidence, and with confidence you can work your pace back up to where it was before and maybe even faster.

Seriously though, ya need to figure out how to turn the bike while not on the gas. It gives me the gut feeling you're not setting your entry speed in a good way. Over braking and then getting on the gas to early is a recipe for a lowside.

[Ginganinja]

Originally Posted by csmith12

Seriously though, ya need to figure out how to not turn the bike while not on the gas. It gives me the gut feeling you're not setting your entry speed in a good way. Over braking and then getting on the gas to early is a recipe for a lowside.

Double negative? So no turning and no gas... Straight line? Challenge accepted!!
Ok all joking aside, you're saying I need to figure out how to turn the bike while not on the gas? I get that, I can do that no problem, and that's great for cruising, but if I want to ride aggressively I'm going to be on the gas the majority of the time, especially with these bikes, there's almost no need to brake for corners, only adjust throttle. And that's where I'm having issues. As i go through the turn carrying speed with these new springs and then start to roll on the throttle in the turn, the front end feels like it's going to tuck.

How do you suggest setting entry speed? I get what you're saying about overbraking and then using the throttle too early, because it doesn't give the suspension time to rebound properly and will cause the front to tuck, hence the purpose for trail braking into a turn and rolling on the throttle at the same time so the suspension doesn't have to work as hard. Personally I don't believe that's my problem.

I think to really pinpoint the problem i'll need more seat time on it, and who knows, maybe that'll end up being the solution itself, that I need to adjust to the increased feel through the bars with the stiffer springs and the way it reacts.

I think i'll still upgrade the rear shock tho too. I need to get rid of that soft stock one that it comes with. After some research, it looks like the new gen shock is my best bet since the gsxr shock takes quite a bit of modding on the pregen. If only it were as simple as putting it on the new gens.

[csmith12]

hmmm....

Let's take a different look at this. Say you're in your car, driving normally. How often do you turn the car while on the gas on the curvey road? If you're like me, you find yourself trailing off the brakes as you turn the car into the corner. Once you turn is set, then you get back to the gas. You basically do the exact same thing on a bike. Now I am not saying to go out and trail brake every corner on the street. Many riders set fully their entry speed before turning. But even for those riders, being smooth on the brakes means trailing them off, even if that means before turning. And just as you commented, there is still a bit of engine braking during the turn to keep the weight forward for stable, planted steering inputs.

Can this be done aggressively? Absolutely!!!! In fact, I don't think I would have ever won any races without doing this extremely aggressively. There was a video of a gp rider entering a turn on just the front wheel posted just last week. I also posted a video of the same thing from my helmet cam for another perspective. The perspective from my helmet cam really isn't all that exciting aside of a thump when the rear comes back down. But even after the wheel hits, I still trail off the brake to keep things smooth, turn the bike and then once on my line.... boom gas it.

Here is the secret to making this work out at a more aggressive pace. The TURN IN POINT, on a good line is the key. There are 11 things, that are affected by your turn in point. I will let you explore 9 of those those on your own but for this thread, we need to focus on 2.

1. How quickly do you need to steer the bike? - A later turn in point will require you to get the steering completed faster. It's harder to steer fast while on the throttle, but can be done with 1 finger while on the brakes/engine braking. And what feels more aggressive, lazy steering or quick flicks? What gets you back to the gas sooner, lazy steering or quick flicking onto your line?

2. Where the gas comes on? - The later your turn in point, the more time you have to get your entry speed perfect using the brake lever and since your running out of pavement to ride on, you have to make a strong commitment to steering the bike. Mentally... are you gunna want to be on the throttle while your bike is not pointed in the direction you want to go? Nope... which is why you wait until steering is complete.

Bonus
3. How hard/aggressive you can roll on the throttle. - This one is subtle but a biggy. If your turn in point is early, this means your leaned over more and for a longer time. Can you be aggressive with the throttle while fully leaned? Who spends more time at full throttle, a rider leaned over for 90% of the corner, or the rider who is only leaned over for 75% of the corner?

Your homework: Watch Twist of the Wrist II on DVD on free Sat. morning. Most of this stuff is well explained and visually. The plot sucks and the humor is dry, but the info is golden.

Bonus Quiz Question: Is a later turn in point safer on the street?

[csmith12]

Lol @ my double negative mistake. Good catch.