Carb Disassembly Q

[Road Dawg1]

Our carb assembly is actually two single barrel carbs stuck together.

I wanted to break them down to singles, but the screws holding the assemblies started to strip on me.

Any tricks on completely breaking down this assembly?

[jkv45]

Originally Posted by Road Dawg1

Our carb assembly is actually two single barrel carbs stuck together.

I wanted to break them down to singles, but the screws holding the assemblies started to strip on me.

Any tricks on completely breaking down this assembly?

Are you using Japanese Industry Standard (JIS) screwdrivers?

The screws look like Phillips, but aren't. If you have chewed them up, just grab them with a visegrips and get them out, then replace with Socket-head cap screws - stainless steel if you can find them.

If you plan to do any amount of work on Japanese cycles or cars you want a good set of JIS screwdrivers. I got mine at McMaster-Carr for about $30 for a 3-piece set. Never regretted it.

[flitecontrol]

Everyone who works on motorcycles needs a hand impact driver to loosen stubborn fasteners. They are inexpensive and worth their weight in gold! I've used standard Phillips screwdriver bits and an impact driver and never buggered the head of a screw. Use them to loosen things, never to tighten! http://www.harborfreight.com/impact-...ase-37530.html

[agentbad]

Just use the screwdrivers that came with your bike kit they are JIS. Switch to the hex bolts afterwards and you won't have anymore issues.

[Ninjinsky]

Originally Posted by Road Dawg1

Our carb assembly is actually two single barrel carbs stuck together.

I wanted to break them down to singles, but the screws holding the assemblies started to strip on me.

Any tricks on completely breaking down this assembly?

Just curious why you want to separate them into singles, Is this to make removal/ cleaning easier?

[CZroe]

Originally Posted by agentbad

Just use the screwdrivers that came with your bike kit they are JIS. Switch to the hex bolts afterwards and you won't have anymore issues.

No they aren't. The included tools are Phillips. Look at the parts diagram if you don't believe me. Also, good luck opening your side panels or brake fluid reservoir with those!

[ducatiman]

if the linkage screws are already buggered, cut a slot using a dremel with cut-off wheel, use a flat blade driver.

In addition...the suggestion to get an impact driver is a valid one, a must have for carb separation, not only on EX250/500 but other applications as well. The tight phillips screws routinely strip without using the impact driver.

Why split them? Automatic for refurb, ultrasonic cleaning and to replace the fuel rail (connector link) o-rings. Orings are considered consumables, a true refurb is not accomplished without replacing these.

I routinely do EX500 carbs, the fleet is aging out there.

[jkv45]

Originally Posted by CZroe

No they aren't. The included tools are Phillips. Look at the parts diagram if you don't believe me. Also, good luck opening your side panels or brake fluid reservoir with those!

I didn't believe you...so I looked...

You are right - they are listed as "Phillips" in the parts fiche. I would say that's just a simplification for the U.S. market.

I recently worked on a Chinese engine that had "Phillips" screws on it. I tested a Snap-On #1 and a JIS #1 in the same screw, and the JIS was a significantly better fit.

I also tried a #3 screw from the headlight of my Suzuki SV. The Snap-On #3 fit, but the JIS #3 fit better.

For anyone that works on Japanese vehicles, chances are the JIS screwdrivers will fit better that a regular Phillips. You can try other bits if you are using an impact driver, but for removing screws by hand the JIS screwdrivers hold a lot better from my experience.

EDIT: I'm still not convinced that any of the screws on the Ninja, or any Japanese vehicle, are Phillips and not JIS. The issue is that the manuals were originally written in Japanese and translated to English. Changes get made, and it's possible a familiar description gets used. I couldn't see Japanese manufactures choosing to use some standard Phillips screws and some JIS screws on the same cycle. Because they are in Japan, I'm sure they insist on Japanese Industry Standard (JIS) fasteners - but I can't prove it...

[CZroe]

The bolts that hold the side panels, bar ends, and battery box are definitely PH03, but most every other cross-head is a JIS (front brake reservoir, carbs, undertail screw, etc, IIRC). The strange thing is, the tool kit Kawi gives you is so crappy that it can't even undo the confirmed Philips screws! It truly is a clusterf**k that can't be solved with one set of tools or the other, which is why replacing with Allen/hex head where possible is such a good suggestion.

I suggest using the drywall bits for the JIS screws/bolts and standard Phillips #03 for most of the rest (PH02 on the reservoir). Replace the JIS screws as you get then out (usually marked with a dot). If you bugger your bar ends with a PH#03, it's because it is soft metal with permanent thread locker that requires heat AND leverage/impact and NOT because it's JIS (it isn't). All the leverage in the world will just tear it up like butter without heat. With heat you may even be able to get it off with a normal screwdriver.

[Ninjinsky]

Originally Posted by ducatiman

Why split them? Automatic for refurb, ultrasonic cleaning and to replace the fuel rail (connector link) o-rings. Orings are considered consumables, a true refurb is not accomplished without replacing these.

I kind of got the impression (since everyone obviously knows it's two carbs on a mount not a twin choke carb) that he was thinking of mounting them separately with a twin throttle cable which would make taking the carbs on and of a heck of a lot easier
An idea that is growing on me.

[ducatiman]

understood but not adviseable to disable linkages here 's why:

fuel enters the LH carb, which fills, then enters the RH carb via the oringed fuel rail. Removing linkages would allow vibration and motion to destroy the seal between the carbs....IMHO blatantly dangerous. You need a rigid mount due to this design....to clamp the bodies together...thus assuring a leak free fuel passage.

[Ninjinsky]

Originally Posted by ducatiman

understood but not adviseable to disable linkages here 's why:

fuel enters the LH carb, which fills, then enters the RH carb via the oringed fuel rail. Removing linkages would allow vibration and motion to destroy the seal between the carbs....IMHO blatantly dangerous. You need a rigid mount due to this design....to clamp the bodies together...thus assuring a leak free fuel passage.

I'd use 2 left hand carb bodies and 2 right hand throttle spindles No one said it could be done with zero engineering. Ill go to the workshop tomorrow and look at the feasibility of the project.

[Road Dawg1]

Originally Posted by Ninjinsky

I kind of got the impression (since everyone obviously knows it's two carbs on a mount not a twin choke carb) that he was thinking of mounting them separately with a twin throttle cable which would make taking the carbs on and of a heck of a lot easier
An idea that is growing on me.

Nah, I'm not that adventurous yet. Still just want to get my rebuilt carb running reliably first.

You do raise an interesting mod, though. Seems complex for a gain I don't see, other than to prove it could be done.

[ducatiman]

Originally Posted by Ninjinsky

I'd use 2 left hand carb bodies and 2 right hand throttle spindles No one said it could be done with zero engineering. Ill go to the workshop tomorrow and look at the feasibility of the project.

jeez...how often do you really *need* to pull your carbs to justify this redo?
of course anything is possible with time, expense and effort...have fun.

[Ninjinsky]

Originally Posted by ducatiman

jeez...how often do you really *need* to pull your carbs to justify this redo?
of course anything is possible with time, expense and effort...have fun.

Maybe fifteen times so far and I just hate the job but every winter "Traffic light idle dive" raises its head again and they have to come off. (no its not 'icing' because once it starts it is persistent until a carb strip then OK)
I will, just for elimination, buy an ultrasonic cleaner and do the spare set to swap next time ( I have two pairs that I alternate). But as I said elsewhere in 45 years of riding and a dozen bikes I have never had Idle problems until the ninjette.

[ducatiman]

15? thats EXtreme.

This happens with both your carbsets?

[Ninjinsky]

Originally Posted by ducatiman

15? thats EXtreme.

This happens with both your carbsets?

Yes
(Not wanting to hijack this thread)
I posted on the phenomenon in detail a couple of weeks ago, when the forum was awash with ninja idle problems.

https://www.ninjette.org/forums/showthread.php?t=192176

[agentbad]

I've used the included JIS screwdriver on just about everything now and never had an issue that includes the carbs. If I use a regular phillips it usually slips. I really only use it for the brake reservoir, carbs, and boots.

[Ninjinsky]

Originally Posted by agentbad

I've used the included JIS screwdriver on just about everything now and never had an issue that includes the carbs. If I use a regular phillips it usually slips. I really only use it for the brake reservoir, carbs, and boots.

Nobody mentions the dominant Posidriv. I find that, without a handy JIS set, a Posidriv screwdriver will work better than a phillips. Philips are too pointy for most bike screws my posidrive set seem to sit deeper in the screwheads

http://www.hafele.com/us/services/ha...brary/4300.htm

[CZroe]

Originally Posted by Ninjinsky

Nobody mentions the dominant Posidriv. I find that, without a handy JIS set, a Posidriv screwdriver will work better than a phillips. Philips are too pointy for most bike screws my posidrive set seem to sit deeper in the screwheads

http://www.hafele.com/us/services/ha...brary/4300.htm

I would expect the secondary blades between the main blades would interfere. Drywall bits should be available at any home improvement store and they are reported to work well, so why bother with Pozidriv?

[jkv45]

Some reading on the subject from webBikeWorld - http://www.webbikeworld.com/motorcyc...-screwdrivers/

I have a 3pc set from McMaster-Carr that is $35 and use them all the time.

[Ninjinsky]

Originally Posted by CZroe

I would expect the secondary blades between the main blades would interfere. Drywall bits should be available at any home improvement store and they are reported to work well, so why bother with Pozidriv?

The corners of Phillips screws seem to have enough clearance that small blade fouling doesn't happen in practice. The plus of the Pozidriv is that the main blades are completely square rather than the flattish end of a curve.
http://www.agcoauto.com/content/imag...comparison.jpg

Drywall bits are a good idea, I'll take a look.

[CZroe]

Originally Posted by Ninjinsky

The corners of Phillips screws seem to have enough clearance that small blade fouling doesn't happen in practice. The plus of the Pozidriv is that the main blades are completely square rather than the flattish end of a curve.
http://www.agcoauto.com/content/imag...comparison.jpg

Drywall bits are a good idea, I'll take a look.

http://faq.ninja250.org/wiki/Cleanin...ewdriver_notes

Looks like they may work well for JIS screws that have already been rounded/buggered up.