September 1st, 2016, 12:14 PM | #1 |
ninjette.org guru
Name: shinobi
Location: Sunshine State
Join Date: Jul 2016 Motorcycle(s): '13 ninja 300 Posts: 447
|
new piston rings without honing
Curious to hear some opinions.
When would it ever be acceptable to install new piston rings and NOT hone the cylinder walls? |
|
September 1st, 2016, 12:19 PM | #2 |
Vintage Screwball
Name: B
Location: Washington
Join Date: Feb 2016 Motorcycle(s): 2011 Ninja 250, 2008 Ninja 250, 2019 KTM 1290SDR, 2017 FZ10 Posts: A lot.
MOTM - Mar '16
|
IMO, never. With the proper tools it only takes a matter of minutes. With a hone and a drill and a smidge of oil, it'll take you 5 minutes or less to do both cylinders.
I suppose if the cylinders were new enough and still had cross hatching, you'd be fine.
__________________________________________________
Goin' fast on slow bikes! |
|
September 1st, 2016, 12:52 PM | #3 |
ninjette.org certified postwhore
Name: Eric
Location: Iowa City
Join Date: May 2009 Motorcycle(s): 2008 Kawmeracchi 350 2010 Project X Posts: A lot.
Blog Entries: 54
MOTM - Sep '18, Feb '16
|
It is not a general practice.
The honing is to remove any glazing and help the rings seat. It takes a simple tool available at an auto parts store and oil. Plus a drill. Then you will want to clean the cylinders and wash and scrub them with soap and water. Then IMMEDIATELY coat the bore with oil. They will flash rust befor your eyes. This is all done after you clean the base and head gasket serface. You want to get all the grit out of the cylinders bores after the honing. Otherwise it will grind into the ring gruve and stick the rings. I am guessing someone can post up some photos of a cross hatch pattern you want to achieve.
__________________________________________________
Top speed 123.369mph. Ohio mile Worlds fastest 250 ninja |
1 out of 1 members found this post helpful. |
September 1st, 2016, 01:21 PM | #4 |
ninjette.org sage
Name: bruce
Location: northern illinois
Join Date: Jan 2012 Motorcycle(s): Race bikes:08 Ninja 250,11 R6,16 ZX6,SV650.3 HD-1947,2-2003,2010. 1946 Indian and a lot of dirt bikes.2 Posts: 999
|
The 300 has a nikasil cylinder wall finish less prone to flash rusting in my experience. Also it can be a bitch to hone due to the hardness of the finish. Luckily there is a motorcycle machine shop 2 miles from me that has always honed them for me on a honing bar. Something about a diamond stone?
|
1 out of 1 members found this post helpful. |
September 1st, 2016, 01:32 PM | #5 |
ninjette.org guru
Name: shinobi
Location: Sunshine State
Join Date: Jul 2016 Motorcycle(s): '13 ninja 300 Posts: 447
|
i agree, NEVER. i am also aware of the process, and how/why this is done, mechanic by trade. apparently the mechanic at the dealer doesnt agree. i picked my bike up today, they replaced crankshaft, 1 rod, 1 piston, 2 rings(so they say), and head milled(so they say). i asked tons of questions they are probably not used to hearing, one of them was did they hone the cylinders. when he said no, i said why not, how are the rings supposed to seat? he got all defensive and said the mechanic that rebuilt this has 30yrs experience and he said it didnt need a hone. i call BS, it takes an extra 10 minutes since the block was already apart(so they say), and any experienced engine builder would home them, its a critical part of block preparation for the build.
what i think happened was that they disconnected the one rod from the crank, and let the piston/ring just dangle in the block since there was no visible damage and they were too lazy to ring it and hone both cylinders lol. anyways, i told them after i break it in and do a compression test it will be coming back for another rebuild it the numbers are low. i asked him what a healthy engine(ninja 300) psi should be, he had no clue. i said around 200? he said lmk go check. he came out 5 minutes later and said they dont do compression test and they dont have the specs, they do leakdown tests. i said BULLSHIT, ill find out the numbers on my own, and if you dont do compression test, why the **** do they charge for them in all their service packages that are posted right there on the ****ing wall? only reason anyone other than myself is working on this bike is because WARRANTY. notes: bike spun rod at 1265 miles. 2013 ninja 300 will seat new rings over the weekend after this hurricane passes. here i come hard break-in |
|
September 1st, 2016, 02:07 PM | #6 |
ninjette.org certified postwhore
Name: Paul
Location: UK
Join Date: Apr 2014 Motorcycle(s): Ninja 250, Yamaha RS200 (classic) Posts: A lot.
|
All this paranoid hostility serves no useful purpose and just gets mechanics backs up. At that low mileage I doubt it needs honing but any goodwill you had with that workshop will be in the rag bin by now.
Bet it runs fine and compression will be within spec. |
2 out of 2 members found this post helpful. |
September 1st, 2016, 02:16 PM | #7 | |
ninjette.org guru
Name: shinobi
Location: Sunshine State
Join Date: Jul 2016 Motorcycle(s): '13 ninja 300 Posts: 447
|
Quote:
you say "at that low mileage". how many miles do you think it takes to seat rings i could care less about that shop, the service manager was a dbag, and it was like pulling teeth to get any info on what exactly they were doing to MY bike. not to mention i caught him in a few lies over the month it took them to do an 8.4hr job |
|
|
September 1st, 2016, 02:32 PM | #8 |
Vintage Screwball
Name: B
Location: Washington
Join Date: Feb 2016 Motorcycle(s): 2011 Ninja 250, 2008 Ninja 250, 2019 KTM 1290SDR, 2017 FZ10 Posts: A lot.
MOTM - Mar '16
|
This is the second 300 I've heard of that spun a rod bearing. The other one is a member here too and it crapped out on a track day.
Any TSB's or anything out for it?
__________________________________________________
Goin' fast on slow bikes! |
|
September 1st, 2016, 02:44 PM | #9 |
ninjette.org certified postwhore
Name: Eric
Location: Iowa City
Join Date: May 2009 Motorcycle(s): 2008 Kawmeracchi 350 2010 Project X Posts: A lot.
Blog Entries: 54
MOTM - Sep '18, Feb '16
|
Let me find out about nikasil. I am not reall up to speed with it and did not realize you had a 300.
If there is a good cross hatch pattern and in some cases that might be OK. I am only Guessing but I can see the nickel on the cylinder and cast iron rings being good to make a deal.
__________________________________________________
Top speed 123.369mph. Ohio mile Worlds fastest 250 ninja |
|
September 1st, 2016, 03:00 PM | #10 | |
ninjette.org certified postwhore
Name: Paul
Location: UK
Join Date: Apr 2014 Motorcycle(s): Ninja 250, Yamaha RS200 (classic) Posts: A lot.
|
Quote:
I would advise against a "hard break in over the weekend" It doesn't work that way. With rings it is more about initially keeping piston speed down than throttle loading. The spinning rods is a serious sounding weakness. A recall would be very expensive for Kawasaki since there are so many ninjettes. If they can pin the problem down to a narrow window of engine production numbers then they might do it, if it is a general problem don't hold your breath. What were the symptoms? so that other owners can minimise damage if it happens to them. |
|
|
September 1st, 2016, 03:17 PM | #11 | ||
ninjette.org guru
Name: shinobi
Location: Sunshine State
Join Date: Jul 2016 Motorcycle(s): '13 ninja 300 Posts: 447
|
Quote:
https://is.gd/FVQZaO also drained a cup full of oil before i dropped thebike off, there were chunks(8mm or so) or metal, not flakes. if it did indeed spin the bearing, it was because of the rod bolt stretching or backing its way out. what do you mean tsb's or anything? Quote:
you are telling this to a guy who has broken in all my engines that way. there were no symptoms, it happened really fast. i was a few blocks from home, engine lost power and started to vibrate. i shut it down and coasted home. tried to start it, it did not kick over, sounded like a dead battery. tried 15 mins later, it kicked over and i heard loud banging, and from experience, i immediately thought connecting rod. boy was i right |
||
|
September 1st, 2016, 03:23 PM | #12 | |
Vintage Screwball
Name: B
Location: Washington
Join Date: Feb 2016 Motorcycle(s): 2011 Ninja 250, 2008 Ninja 250, 2019 KTM 1290SDR, 2017 FZ10 Posts: A lot.
MOTM - Mar '16
|
Quote:
It's a list of common failure items on a vehicle or particular things for a mechanic to look for. Like, noise coming from front right, common failure noted is defective driveshaft or something. Very handy when shopping for vehicles. Just google 2013 Scion XB TSB for example to see what I mean. https://www.automd.com/tsb/toyota_m/scion-xb_mm/ FWIW, I don't do hard break ins but I'm not easy on them either. Plenty of people do short dyno break ins on motorcycles and then take them to the track. I wouldn't flog it but you don't have to hold back. Every vehicle I've owned new or rebuilt the motor for has been driven like that. I get ya.
__________________________________________________
Goin' fast on slow bikes! |
|
|
September 1st, 2016, 03:27 PM | #13 | |
ninjette.org guru
Name: shinobi
Location: Sunshine State
Join Date: Jul 2016 Motorcycle(s): '13 ninja 300 Posts: 447
|
Quote:
|
|
|
September 1st, 2016, 03:29 PM | #14 |
Vintage Screwball
Name: B
Location: Washington
Join Date: Feb 2016 Motorcycle(s): 2011 Ninja 250, 2008 Ninja 250, 2019 KTM 1290SDR, 2017 FZ10 Posts: A lot.
MOTM - Mar '16
|
I'm not sure what an acceptable failure rate is for a part like that but the 300's seem to be a bit on the high side like the previous generation R6.
__________________________________________________
Goin' fast on slow bikes! |
|
September 1st, 2016, 03:39 PM | #15 |
Vintage Screwball
Name: B
Location: Washington
Join Date: Feb 2016 Motorcycle(s): 2011 Ninja 250, 2008 Ninja 250, 2019 KTM 1290SDR, 2017 FZ10 Posts: A lot.
MOTM - Mar '16
|
It would be interesting to see if the torque spec for the rod bolts changed between 2013-2016 in the factory manual. That would tell a little bit of a story.
__________________________________________________
Goin' fast on slow bikes! |
|
September 1st, 2016, 03:59 PM | #16 |
ninjette.org guru
Name: shinobi
Location: Sunshine State
Join Date: Jul 2016 Motorcycle(s): '13 ninja 300 Posts: 447
|
https://youtu.be/bLQfZsmQb7]" TARGET="_blank">Link to original page on YouTube. |
|
September 1st, 2016, 05:07 PM | #17 | |
ninjette.org certified postwhore
Name: Paul
Location: UK
Join Date: Apr 2014 Motorcycle(s): Ninja 250, Yamaha RS200 (classic) Posts: A lot.
|
Quote:
Look, it's your bike and your attitude, if you want to run it in by caning it, do what you want, I'm outta here. Good day sir. |
|
1 out of 1 members found this post helpful. |
September 1st, 2016, 05:17 PM | #18 |
ninjette.org guru
Name: shinobi
Location: Sunshine State
Join Date: Jul 2016 Motorcycle(s): '13 ninja 300 Posts: 447
|
|
|
September 2nd, 2016, 05:55 AM | #19 |
CCS Amateur #501
Name: Dave
Location: Iowa
Join Date: Jun 2015 Motorcycle(s): '09 250 SE 'Booger' Posts: 406
|
Same rod bolts between the 250s and 300s. Newgen 250 calls for 20 ft lbs torque. 2013 300 manual says .15-.25mm of bolt stretch, or 89 in lbs plus another 120 degrees. Not sure what the newer 300 fsm says.
Last futzed with by Dave Wolfe; September 2nd, 2016 at 07:18 AM. |
|
September 2nd, 2016, 05:59 AM | #20 | |
ninjette.org guru
Name: shinobi
Location: Sunshine State
Join Date: Jul 2016 Motorcycle(s): '13 ninja 300 Posts: 447
|
Quote:
no wonder they back off, i can tighten them that tight with my fingers. rod bolts must be toothpicks if thats all the tq they take. |
|
|
September 2nd, 2016, 06:18 AM | #22 |
ninjette.org guru
Name: shinobi
Location: Sunshine State
Join Date: Jul 2016 Motorcycle(s): '13 ninja 300 Posts: 447
|
|
|
September 2nd, 2016, 06:27 AM | #24 |
ninjette.org guru
Name: shinobi
Location: Sunshine State
Join Date: Jul 2016 Motorcycle(s): '13 ninja 300 Posts: 447
|
almost all important engine bolts(at least on the euro cars i wrenched on) are TTY. front crankshaft, front cam pulley bolt, head bolts, crank mains, rod bolts, pressure plate, some suspension bolts, etc, they are tough as nails
|
|
September 2nd, 2016, 06:49 AM | #25 |
Guy Who Enjoys Riding
Name: Jim
Location: North Carolina
Join Date: Jul 2016 Motorcycle(s): Ninja 250 Posts: A lot.
MOTM - Oct '18, Aug '17, Aug '16
|
You think that's bad? My 1967 289 ford V8's factory spec for the big end rod caps is 18 lb-ft! I got SPS bolts and torqued to a stretch spec, which got them up in the 20s. They're 5/16" diameter bolts.
|
|
September 2nd, 2016, 07:07 AM | #26 |
ninjette.org guru
Name: shinobi
Location: Sunshine State
Join Date: Jul 2016 Motorcycle(s): '13 ninja 300 Posts: 447
|
i would expect a beefier bolt/nut combo on something that revs so high. i guess im just used to wrenching on engines that used 3/8" arp hardware, a whole other ball game. i have never rebuilt a bottom end with stock rods, always forged w/arp hardware, its cheaper, and stronger that way
|
|
September 2nd, 2016, 07:25 AM | #27 |
Guy Who Enjoys Riding
Name: Jim
Location: North Carolina
Join Date: Jul 2016 Motorcycle(s): Ninja 250 Posts: A lot.
MOTM - Oct '18, Aug '17, Aug '16
|
In general, the stock 289s of that era were not high revving or high output. Mine's a 4-barrel and rated at 210hp, at a time when that was crankshaft hp on a dyno under ideal conditions. It's a marine conversion, with the original hp rating at 4,400 rpm.
The Ninja 250's pistons and rods are a small fraction of the weight of the 289 Ford's, so it's not surprising to me that the rod bolt torque spec is not high. |
|
September 2nd, 2016, 07:28 AM | #28 |
CCS Amateur #501
Name: Dave
Location: Iowa
Join Date: Jun 2015 Motorcycle(s): '09 250 SE 'Booger' Posts: 406
|
Edit - my earlier post re torque spec was for the 2013 300 manual. I left the "300" part out.
The specs are whats in the FSM's. The 250 spec came from an '08 ex 250 FI FSM. Its pretty easy to find one for download. |
|
September 2nd, 2016, 10:22 AM | #29 | |
ninjette.org guru
Name: shinobi
Location: Sunshine State
Join Date: Jul 2016 Motorcycle(s): '13 ninja 300 Posts: 447
|
Quote:
|
|
|
September 2nd, 2016, 10:28 AM | #30 |
ninjette.org certified postwhore
Name: Eric
Location: Iowa City
Join Date: May 2009 Motorcycle(s): 2008 Kawmeracchi 350 2010 Project X Posts: A lot.
Blog Entries: 54
MOTM - Sep '18, Feb '16
|
Just talked with two factory trained and really good motorcycle mechanics. Officially you should not hone nikesil cylinders. According to Yamaha Suzuki and Kawasaki they are not serviceable. And you should replace the cylinder block. But they do put a very ,very light hone on used nikesil cylinders. Just enough to remove any glaze. And they don't use the big spring hone just the wire type with the little stone balls.
__________________________________________________
Top speed 123.369mph. Ohio mile Worlds fastest 250 ninja |
2 out of 2 members found this post helpful. |
September 2nd, 2016, 10:32 AM | #31 |
The Corner Whisperer
Name: Chris (aka Reactor)
Location: Northern KY
Join Date: May 2011 Motorcycle(s): 2010 250 (track), 1992 250, 2006 R6 (street/track), 2008 R6 (track) Posts: Too much.
MOTY 2015, MOTM - Nov '12, Nov '13
|
^^^^ many small engines are like that. Some models of John Deer and Cub Cadet lawn tractor are just the same.
__________________________________________________
Goal: Shake A Million Hands | Look through the corners | Track Day Prep | Closest track? | The Mid-Ohio School |
|
September 2nd, 2016, 10:42 AM | #32 | |
RIP Alex
Name: Cuong
Location: Houston, TX
Join Date: Apr 2011 Motorcycle(s): '10 250r, '09 265r Posts: A lot.
Blog Entries: 2
|
Quote:
__________________________________________________
HalfFast Racing Team Serving Greater Houston Area Riders:WFO Riders MotoHouston HPC CMRA Ride Smart Fastline Lone Star Track Days |
|
|
September 2nd, 2016, 11:00 AM | #33 |
ninjette.org guru
Name: shinobi
Location: Sunshine State
Join Date: Jul 2016 Motorcycle(s): '13 ninja 300 Posts: 447
|
|
|
September 2nd, 2016, 11:15 AM | #34 |
The Corner Whisperer
Name: Chris (aka Reactor)
Location: Northern KY
Join Date: May 2011 Motorcycle(s): 2010 250 (track), 1992 250, 2006 R6 (street/track), 2008 R6 (track) Posts: Too much.
MOTY 2015, MOTM - Nov '12, Nov '13
|
It's cool we are all learning some things there.
__________________________________________________
Goal: Shake A Million Hands | Look through the corners | Track Day Prep | Closest track? | The Mid-Ohio School |
|
September 2nd, 2016, 11:24 AM | #35 | |
Vintage Screwball
Name: B
Location: Washington
Join Date: Feb 2016 Motorcycle(s): 2011 Ninja 250, 2008 Ninja 250, 2019 KTM 1290SDR, 2017 FZ10 Posts: A lot.
MOTM - Mar '16
|
Quote:
__________________________________________________
Goin' fast on slow bikes! |
|
1 out of 1 members found this post helpful. |
September 2nd, 2016, 03:33 PM | #36 |
dirty boy
Name: Joe
Location: Johnstown, PA
Join Date: Sep 2012 Motorcycle(s): I don't even know anymore?? Posts: A lot.
MOTM - Apr '14
|
^ this
In the off road world where top end rebuilds are way more common scotchBrite is a very common method used on the coated cylinders
__________________________________________________
I love the smell of burning pre-mix in the morning I don't think I'm a lot dumber than you thought that I think that I thought I was once. |
2 out of 2 members found this post helpful. |
December 22nd, 2016, 09:03 AM | #37 |
ninjette.org guru
Name: Chris
Location: Bristol, UK
Join Date: Feb 2016 Motorcycle(s): ZZR250, VFR800 Posts: 491
|
It's not required to hone Nikasil bores, infact due to the thickness of Nikasil (or equivilent) applied, it should generally be avoided. Most Two strokes use Nikasil bores & they get new pistons & rings on a fairly regular schedule, no honing required unless the bore is damaged, & if it is then it usually needs an oversize and replating.
Honing is an OLD technique designed for use on OLD tech cast iron liners like those in the pregen & newgen 250's. I've rebuilt loads of 4 stroke bike engines in the past with new pistons & rings without honing if the bore was in good condition. Just be gentle with the initial break in runs. Never burned any oil or lost compression, nor damaged any rings that way. YMMV |
|
February 6th, 2022, 08:46 PM | #38 |
Retired motorcycle Mc.
Name: Robert
Location: Weed, California.
Join Date: Jul 2021 Motorcycle(s): 2012 Kawasaki Ninja 250R, 2021 CSC TT250, 1977 Triumph Bonneville 750cc,2001 Honda XR650L. Posts: A lot.
|
this is very interesting to me as I have always used a stone hone in all the cylinders I have had off.... weather they needed it or not ! (even re using old rings)
putting those cross hatches in the cylinder really helps seat the rings... but I have read where these new coatings honing is ill advised because of the coating because it is only a few microns thick if you hone it you remove the coating..... so that leaves me to wonder how long this thin coating will actually last...... pistons and rings really do ware down the cylinder wall fairly fast and I would guess that within 2000 miles that coating would be completely gone with no hopes of finding any trace of it left..... even IF it is as hard as they say ! with that in mind how many miles do You guys think the coating would last on a cylinder ??? personally I would give it the benefit of the doubt and give it a maximum of 5,000 miles and then it is gone.... from brand new. so if you have more miles on the machine than that I would think HONING would be a good thing .... Now I am sure many of you will quote the manufacturers bragging of the coating will last 100,000 miles but do you really think they checked that with mileage on the road ? no they estimated it by the hardness ware of a normal cylinder and the new hardness of the coated cylinder.... which gives a really false impression of it's longevity !!! ....Bob...
__________________________________________________
Its too late when you've gone too far ! |
|
February 7th, 2022, 01:22 AM | #39 |
ninjette.org certified postwhore
Name: AKA JacRyann
Location: Mesa, AZ
Join Date: Dec 2011 Motorcycle(s): CB125T CBR250R-MC19 CBR250RR-MC22 NSR350R-MC21 VF500F CBR600RR SFV650 VFR750F R1M ST1300PA Valkyrie-F6C Posts: A lot.
MOTY - 2018, MOTM - Nov '17
|
These composite coatings simply do not wear like old cast iron bores. That's why there's no reason to hone them. I've replaced rings & pistons on 2T dirt bikes over 10x with Nikasil bores with no honing needed (NiCom in U.S.). The surfaces are easily 10x stronger than cast-iron. Just look up strengths of nickel-steel alloys, they are tough! Further alloying makes them indestructible really.
Similarly, '80s Porsche water-cooled engines started using Alusil, a hypereutecic alloy first used in Chevy Vega (Reynolds 390). It is made with +21% silicon embedded in aluminium. The cylinder surface is prepped just like iron bores to working size. Then final etching/lapping phase is done at end to remove aluminium from between silicon crystals at surface. This leaves tough silicon cylinder surface with pores to hold oil. Many engines having +200K miles when rebuilt, have no measurable wear on cylinders. Porsche's service manual states to not hone and just replace rings and put back together. Iron-coated pistons are needed to match toughness of these silicon bores. I actually rebuilt one such engine starting at 250K-miles with just new rings. It lasted 2 racing seasons at double factory boost (+450bhp) with no problems. Only blew headgasket because I got greedy and turned up boost just before start of Open Track Challenge without proper dyno tuning. Tore it apart and replaced headgasket overnight in parking lot of Willow Springs to finish event and it went another 2-years without any problems. That's when I rebuilt it... again no wear could be measured; so just valve job; rings and and bearings... good as new! Honda's silicon-carbide MMC cylinders are even tougher! Not even possible to hone them as surface is tougher than any boring-bar or honing stone available. These engines have easily gone 400K mile before needing rebuild. Again, no measurable wear on cylinders, so just new rings and bearings are needed. https://www.researchgate.net/publica...e_industry#pf3 https://www.researchgate.net/publica...ication_detail https://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdo...=rep1&type=pdf http://lnengineering.com/files/2019-...er-Systems.pdf Last futzed with by DannoXYZ; February 7th, 2022 at 08:08 AM. |
|
February 7th, 2022, 01:37 AM | #40 |
Retired motorcycle Mc.
Name: Robert
Location: Weed, California.
Join Date: Jul 2021 Motorcycle(s): 2012 Kawasaki Ninja 250R, 2021 CSC TT250, 1977 Triumph Bonneville 750cc,2001 Honda XR650L. Posts: A lot.
|
Geez that's amazing ! i guess the new tech is working then ! wow !
that is amazing !.... i am really surprised it works so well ! because at best all they do it spray on a coating and bake it ...I know they did that for ceramic coatings ... kind'a makes you wonder what else they have come up with that hasn't trickled down yet LOL ... thanks for the info ! ..... Bob.....
__________________________________________________
Its too late when you've gone too far ! |
|
Similar Threads | ||||
Thread | Thread Starter | Forum | Replies | Last Post |
Is there a DIY on piston rings? | cookiebug79 | 1986 - 2007 Ninja 250R Tech Talk | 33 | April 22nd, 2015 01:17 PM |
[motorcycle.com] - Ninja H2 Video XVIII: High Precision Cylinder Honing + Video | Ninjette Newsbot | Motorcycling News | 0 | October 20th, 2014 09:40 AM |
Stuck piston rings or glazed walls | cuong-nutz | General Motorcycling Discussion | 14 | March 5th, 2013 04:26 AM |
Where to find oversized piston rings? | cuong-nutz | General Motorcycling Discussion | 19 | January 9th, 2013 08:27 AM |
Where to buy Piston Rings? | iceman.kcmo | 1986 - 2007 Ninja 250R Tech Talk | 5 | January 28th, 2010 11:59 AM |
|
|