Info on Area P Exhaust Systems for the 2013 Ninja 300

[alex.s]

Hey Kerry, in your opinion, what do you think the motor can reach with a bit more work? (pistons, head work) think it can hit 50 with the right compression on pump gas? Stock pistons are only 10.5:1 right?

[phrenetiK]

awesome, the pricing on your 250 exhausts is very reasonable, but how thorough you guys seem with the 300 lead me to believe it might be 1,000+ for the new exhaust. I think your exhaust will be flying off the shelves. Please let me know as soon as a preorder is available

[kbryant]

Originally Posted by alex.s

Hey Kerry, in your opinion, what do you think the motor can reach with a bit more work? (pistons, head work) think it can hit 50 with the right compression on pump gas? Stock pistons are only 10.5:1 right?

Well naturally aspirated, I don't think so with any remote reliablility....

Compression would be the first place I would personally start if I was going internal mods. Whether that be through higher compression pistons and tighter squish areas, or simply through alternative thickness head gaskets. I would then explore low octane, high oxygen content race fuels with proper mapping.

With the current rev ceiling, I would be cautious about valve size and cam lift/durations/lobe centers. It would take some R&D to determine those results and/or pitfalls that may show up. When you start pumping in those possible improvements, it may start showing lower end stress with the longer stroke motor. So looking at stronger connecting rods and/or crank mods may be necessary. We also would not know what the clutch and related components would endure. It's really one of those things that just takes R&D and blowing up some motors to aquire the data and perameter limits.

[kbryant]

Originally Posted by phrenetiK

awesome, the pricing on your 250 exhausts is very reasonable, but how thorough you guys seem with the 300 lead me to believe it might be 1,000+ for the new exhaust. I think your exhaust will be flying off the shelves. Please let me know as soon as a preorder is available

Thank you for the comments.

[Ryephile]

Originally Posted by kbryant

Below are our dyno graphs from our initial R&D tuning sessions.


Run # 3 - Baseline stock run OEM exhaust. Run #56 - Area P Standard Mount System, Standard Muffler. FI Micro Programmer, Snorkel removed. K&N Filter Panel direct replacement. Run #80 -Area P Ultra High Mount System, Fi Micro Programmer, Snorkel removed, K&N Filter Panel direct replacement. Run #90 - Area P Standard System, Long Quiet Muffler, FI Micro Programmer, Snorkel removed, K&N Filter Panel direct replacement. As you can note, all versions of the Area P systems, with proper mapping, have very similiar performance characteristics. Especially noting that the Standard System with Long Quiet Muffler being very quiet as compared, yet offers excellent performance.

The colors aren't the easiest to see, but it looks like the Long Quiet muffler had the most area under the curve, yes?

[kbryant]

Originally Posted by Ryephile

The colors aren't the easiest to see, but it looks like the Long Quiet muffler had the most area under the curve, yes?

Actually no not correct. The Standard system with Long Quiet Muffler has one of the smoothest overall powerbands. Here's the graph (below) with only those two on them so you can see them easier. Some of the other ones are what we call "pipey", where they hit a little harder and more abruptly (which we like also). As we've noted, further improvements will be had as we continue building our map database for all these systems.

[lgk]

almost hitting 40 with the air box is pretty impressive. can't wait for the results with the pods and tuning.

[tnr4]

Hi Kerry,

I just want to add my thanks for your helpfulness and thoroughness. One question: have you or any colleagues ridden the bike yet? Although dynos are fun and all, I'm always more interested in what a real rider has to report based on the good ol' 'butt dyno'.

Congratulations on your successes with the bike!

[kbryant]

Originally Posted by tnr4

Hi Kerry,

I just want to add my thanks for your helpfulness and thoroughness. One question: have you or any colleagues ridden the bike yet? Although dynos are fun and all, I'm always more interested in what a real rider has to report based on the good ol' 'butt dyno'.

Congratulations on your successes with the bike!

Thank you. And very fair question. We completely believe in the "butt dyno" as well. Yes, I personally rode with every system. It very much feels like two different bikes. I feel it as low as 4k, but I'm a little more sensitive to that. When it starts to really come up on the powerband especially around 7k, it's easy to feel the difference without the dyno. And it continues building up to 11500 at peak. But even at the soft limiter of 12500, it still feels like it's building because there is so little drop off. That's what we call "over-rev". So for example on the race track, it helps in not having to grab another gear between corners that might unload/unsettle the suspension. You can hold it on longer, because there is less drop off. The stocker drops off significantly at the soft-limiter (more than 2 hp) and it's really noticable (no reason to rev it over 10750, because it's dropping pretty fast). The Area P system only drops off a few tenths at the soft limiter. To me, these increases are definetly more pronounced on small displacement bikes (over large displacement bikes), because starting off with a smaller number, makes those increases easier to "feel" in the "butt dyno". And quite honestly, we can also "feel" them on the Dyno as well.

[Ryephile]

Originally Posted by kbryant

Actually no not correct. The Standard system with Long Quiet Muffler has one of the smoothest overall powerbands. Here's the graph (below) with only those two on them so you can see them easier. Some of the other ones are what we call "pipey", where they hit a little harder and more abruptly (which we like also). As we've noted, further improvements will be had as we continue building our map database for all these systems.

Thanks. It looks like that's the one that has the best gain in the midrange RPM [6-9k], but gives up a little bit vs. your other offerings at the top end.

Any pics of the primary/collector yet, or is that still under wraps? I'm assuming these are all non-catted offerings?

[kbryant]

Any pics of the primary/collector yet, or is that still under wraps? I'm assuming these are all non-catted offerings?

Yep, all kinds of detail pix. But respectfully no, we're not going to post them. We have far too much into our R&D efforts to do the competition any favors. When we have the production systems available, we'll show them at that time. And no, none of our full systems have cats.

[DaBlue1]

Originally Posted by kbryant

.... I would then explore low octane, high oxygen content race fuels with proper mapping.

Have you done any testing with ethanol free 87 octane on either the 300 or 250? If you have what were the results. I've been running e-free 87 for a while in my 250 and notice a slight difference between that and e-10 87 Octane.

[ionized]

Originally Posted by kbryant

The Standard system with Long Quiet Muffler has one of the smoothest overall powerbands.

Glad to hear and happy to see as I wanted the standard long quiet muffler and I also was hoping for a smooth overall powerband. +4hp gain is not too bad for that setup, and it will be interesting to see if further map and air RnD can bring another HP to it.

My savings account is ready to cough up the $ at any time lol

[tnr4]

Originally Posted by kbryant

Thank you. And very fair question. We completely believe in the "butt dyno" as well. Yes, I personally rode with every system. It very much feels like two different bikes. I feel it as low as 4k, but I'm a little more sensitive to that. When it starts to really come up on the powerband especially around 7k, it's easy to feel the difference without the dyno. And it continues building up to 11500 at peak. But even at the soft limiter of 12500, it still feels like it's building because there is so little drop off. That's what we call "over-rev". So for example on the race track, it helps in not having to grab another gear between corners that might unload/unsettle the suspension. You can hold it on longer, because there is less drop off. The stocker drops off significantly at the soft-limiter (more than 2 hp) and it's really noticable (no reason to rev it over 10750, because it's dropping pretty fast). The Area P system only drops off a few tenths at the soft limiter. To me, these increases are definetly more pronounced on small displacement bikes (over large displacement bikes), because starting off with a smaller number, makes those increases easier to "feel" in the "butt dyno". And quite honestly, we can also "feel" them on the Dyno as well.

You, sir, are a scholar and a gentleman.

[kbryant]

Originally Posted by DaBlue1

Have you done any testing with ethanol free 87 octane on either the 300 or 250? If you have what were the results. I've been running e-free 87 for a while in my 250 and notice a slight difference between that and e-10 87 Octane.

Not specifically knowing that is ethanol free. Since it's pretty much a given that most of us will have to fill up with a blend of up to 10 %, but not knowing the exact percentage, it would be really impractical to test on street driven vehicles with so many other contributing factors.

[Ryephile]

Originally Posted by kbryant

Yep, all kinds of detail pix. But respectfully no, we're not going to post them. We have far too much into our R&D efforts to do the competition any favors. When we have the production systems available, we'll show them at that time. And no, none of our full systems have cats.

Fair enough, I understand. I'll look forward to when these hit the marketplace!

[diwhiteii]

Hi Kerry,

One question that I forgot to ask was: Do you have a block-off plate when you ran the Ninja 300 on the dynos?

[gsxrninja250]

Did you do any dyno runs without doing a remap? Just wondering what the gain is with a stock map

[Surferboy120]

Originally Posted by gsxrninja250

Did you do any dyno runs without doing a remap? Just wondering what the gain is with a stock map

Checkout post 144 he provides baseline dyno results for each result set.

[kbryant]

Originally Posted by diwhiteii

Hi Kerry,

One question that I forgot to ask was: Do you have a block-off plate when you ran the Ninja 300 on the dyno

We always pinch-off the Fresh Air tube on any/all bikes we are tuning so as to not get any false A/F readings. So we do not have to install "block-off plates" on every bike.

[gsxrninja250]

Originally Posted by Surferboy120

Checkout post 144 he provides baseline dyno results for each result set.

Should have worded that better sorry, I was wondering if they did any dyno run with just the exhaust, with no micro tuner, I was curious to see how much the full system makes without the tuner, and just the k&n drop in filter.

[Jiggles]

Originally Posted by gsxrninja250

Should have worded that better sorry, I was wondering if they did any dyno run with just the exhaust, with no micro tuner, I was curious to see how much the full system makes without the tuner, and just the k&n drop in filter.

That would damage the engine from running too lean

[Surferboy120]

Originally Posted by gsxrninja250

Should have worded that better sorry, I was wondering if they did any dyno run with just the exhaust, with no micro tuner, I was curious to see how much the full system makes without the tuner, and just the k&n drop in filter.

I am sure he can chime in to confirm but without tuning the k&n drop in will yield no real gain and possibly worse results.

[kbryant]

Originally Posted by gsxrninja250

Should have worded that better sorry, I was wondering if they did any dyno run with just the exhaust, with no micro tuner, I was curious to see how much the full system makes without the tuner, and just the k&n drop in filter.

No problem. Essentially, it would be pointless to design a full performance exhaust system without making adjustments to the A/F curve to take full advantage of this. Perhaps the best example is to look at the first graph where we ran the oem system; then oem system with the Micro Programmer and mapping. Big difference. So the stock A/F curve leaves alot of room for improvement, even with the oem exhaust system. You could definetly run a Slip-On without an issue, since a Slip-On really does not change the performance (as noted on one of the other graphs).

As far as the filter goes, actually the K&N replacement panel shows much better improvement on the 300, with the snorkel removed, than it did on the 250. I don't know if they changed the foam durometer or what on the oem filter, or perhaps it's just something to do with overall changes on the 300 (FI, throttle body size, intake velocity, displacement, etc.), but the K&N definetly shows better results on our test subject. Don't soak it to death with the filter oil may also assist with that. The oem filter seemed to be really "wet" on our test bike.

[Surferboy120]

Originally Posted by kbryant

No problem. Essentially, it would be pointless to design a full performance exhaust system without making adjustments to the A/F curve to take full advantage of this. Perhaps the best example is to look at the first graph where we ran the oem system; then oem system with the Micro Programmer and mapping. Big difference. So the stock A/F curve leaves alot of room for improvement, even with the oem exhaust system. You could definetly run a Slip-On without an issue, since a Slip-On really does not change the performance (as noted on one of the other graphs).

As far as the filter goes, actually the K&N replacement panel shows much better improvement on the 300, with the snorkel removed, than it did on the 250. I don't know if they changed the foam durometer or what on the oem filter, or perhaps it's just something to do with overall changes on the 300 (FI, throttle body size, intake velocity, displacement, etc.), but the K&N definetly shows better results on our test subject. Don't soak it to death with the filter oil may also assist with that. The oem filter seemed to be really "wet" on our test bike.

In regards to the drop in improvements that was with tuning correct? On the automotive side ECU maps tend to run pretty rich in certain cases so a drop in filter without tuning isn't a big concern motor wise but it does lean it out a bit. Is that the same case with these smaller motors? And if so does that bit of leaning help them?

[kbryant]

Originally Posted by Surferboy120

In regards to the drop in improvements that was with tuning correct? On the automotive side ECU maps tend to run pretty rich in certain cases so a drop in filter without tuning isn't a big concern motor wise but it does lean it out a bit. Is that the same case with these smaller motors? And if so does that bit of leaning help them?

Yes absolutely correct. But it's a add & remove factoring for mapping, along with other adjustments in between depending on the other combinations. The oem curve is somewhat lean to rich untouched. We did not really notice those improvements with the filter alone, until we removed the snorkel and started developing map bases. So it's fair to say that mapping allowed the benefits of a less restrictive filter to take affect.

[shovit]

Originally Posted by kbryant

Yes absolutely correct. But it's a add & remove factoring for mapping, along with other adjustments in between depending on the other combinations. The oem curve is somewhat lean to rich untouched. We did not really notice those improvements with the filter alone, until we removed the snorkel and started developing map bases. So it's fair to say that mapping allowed the benefits of a less restrictive filter to take affect.

Do you think it will be possible making an E85 map with stock injectors?

[kbryant]

Originally Posted by shovit

Do you think it will be possible making an E85 map with stock injectors?

Sure. It's a matter of getting a bike in, completely draining the fuel system/tank, and confirming that we are putting in 100% E85. We can then develop a map for that particular blend.

[headshrink]

I'm still riding my '08 with carbon QC, which I'm very happy with. If I get the opportunity to get a '13+ in the future, this will certainly one of the first upgrades I plan on. As long as AreaP keeps being awesome, I won't even look at competitors. They proved themselves the first time around.

[2013 kawi girl]

Hi Kerry~

Question for you... did you see any performance gains with the high mount like you did with the standard? Thanks in advance

[phrenetiK]

[kbryant]

Originally Posted by 2013 kawi girl

Hi Kerry~

Question for you... did you see any performance gains with the high mount like you did with the standard? Thanks in advance

You bet. Check out post 144 for all graphs & data

[kbryant]

Link to Sales info -

http://www.ninjette.org/forums/showthread.php?t=120691

[Surferboy120]

Originally Posted by kbryant

Link to Sales info -

http://www.ninjette.org/forums/showthread.php?t=120691

Thanks Kerry mine is ordered up.

[gsxrninja250]

Any word on when we get to see a price for the systems?

[kbryant]

Originally Posted by gsxrninja250

Any word on when we get to see a price for the systems?

Should be posting them later today.

[kbryant]

Originally Posted by gsxrninja250

Any word on when we get to see a price for the systems?

Introductory prices will range from $525.00 for the Full Standard Mount System with Stainless Steel Muffler - To $595.00 for the Full Ultra High Mount System with Carbon Fiber Muffler.

We'll also be offering a special "pre-production" sale exclusively for ninjette.org members on these systems. We'll be trying a new program that will be more flexiable than a normal GB (that can be quite cumbersome to administrate). We'll be working out the details next month. Systems are currently scheduled for release in February as previously indicated.

[gsxrninja250]

Originally Posted by kbryant

Introductory prices will range from $525.00 for the Full Standard Mount System with Stainless Steel Muffler - To $595.00 for the Full Ultra High Mount System with Carbon Fiber Muffler.

We'll also be offering a special "pre-production" sale exclusively for ninjette.org members on these systems. We'll be trying a new program that will be more flexiable than a normal GB (that can be quite cumbersome to administrate). We'll be working out the details next month. Systems are currently scheduled for release in February as previously indicated.

Awesome! That's a great price, then all that's needed is the fi micro tuner right? (Another 300 ish?)

[kbryant]

Originally Posted by gsxrninja250

awesome! That's a great price, then all that's needed is the fi micro tuner right? (another 300 ish?)

$249.95

[old3]

When will the tuners be ready to ship?