New Guy, New Bike- Drivetrain issue

[biblefreak]

Hello all, new guy here from West Texas. I have been pouring through the forums trying to learn as much as I can, but can't narrow down the issue I am having. Tons of other great info I have bookmarked for later though!

Issue:
New to me 2005 Ninja 250r with 11,000 miles on it. Runs good overall, but while accelerating, maintaining speed, decelerating, coasting (neutral or clutch pulled in) I get a very rhythmic pulsing. No change when lightly applying either the front and/or the rear brake. I rode a 2007 Ninja 250r the other day and it was smooth as butter, so I know this isn't how it is supposed to be!

Steps taken:
I have adjusted the chain to spec, sprockets look ok, but with some wear to the teeth. If I put the bike on the center stand and rotate the back wheel briskly I also hear a rhythmic sound, like something is rubbing, but I can't see anywhere it could be rubbing. Checked the clutch adjustment, seems to be within spec, and operates properly.

Thoughts:
Doesn't seem like an engine issue as the problem exists at speed whether engine is engaged or not, so have not messed with carbs or valves. Wondering if a worn chain/sprocket could cause this? Could this be a transmission issue? Maybe a rear bearing?

Any ideas?

[csmith12]

Welcome Justin!

Lube the chain, see if the sound goes away. If it does, plan it coming back later. It's a sign that your chain needs replacing.

[biblefreak]

Originally Posted by csmith12

Welcome Justin!

Lube the chain, see if the sound goes away. If it does, plan it coming back later. It's a sign that your chain needs replacing.

Thanks for the quick reply. I left that out, I lubed the chain with actual chain lube. No change.

[csmith12]

Next question to isolate the chain is, does the sound go away at a certain speed while riding?

[biblefreak]

Originally Posted by csmith12

Next question to isolate the chain is, does the sound go away at a certain speed while riding?

No. It is harder to discern it at really low speeds, but the rhythmic sound seems to increase with speed through all gears and at any speed. The midrange, say 20-40 mph in the 5-7k rpm is the most noticeable because the wind nor the motor are too loud at that point to drown it out, but again, it is noticeable at all speeds.

It isn't just a sound though, you can actually feel it pulsing.

I have had the bike about 2 weeks now, and it seems to be getting worse.

[Brother Michigan]

Does the frequency of the pulse change with speed?

[csmith12]

Well then...

The only thing left to do is;

Back on the center stand
Take off chain
Spin wheel and listen (wheel bearing, brakes rubbin'/draggin'? remove the caliper if you have to)
Wiggle the back wheel side to side, there should be no movement (again wheel bearing)
Start up engine
Put bike in gear and listen (no chain on, your listening for engine internals)

It's a process of elimination my friend, but with 11k miles, worn teeth on sprocket and repeating pattern sound... all current signs point to the chain.

[csmith12]

As a last resort... soak the chain in a gear oil and kerosene mix overnight and give it another go. The overnight soak will allow the oil to penetrate the links. The sound should go away if it's coming from the chain.

[agentbad]

I had the same issue but thought the sound was coming from my front brake caliper. Did a full rebuild and low and behold the sound was still there. Adjusted and cleaned the chain, fixed the rear wheel alignment, and lubed it. Sound went away.

[biblefreak]

Ok, just checked the chain again. It seems to be adjusted ok, but when I pull the chain away from the rear sprocket where the chain has the most slack it pulls away enough that I can almost see an entire tooth. Rear sprocket teeth are also pretty chewed up, guessing the front is in similar condition, though I didn't pull the cover to look, just going to replace it.

2 questions:

First, how freely should the links move? While none of the links are kinked or frozen, most of them are quite stiff.

Second, how detrimental is riding with a worn chain? It will be a few days before I order the parts and the chain tool, but would like to keep riding so long as I am not going to tear anything up!

Thanks for all the help!

[Hellmutt]

Originally Posted by biblefreak

Ok, just checked the chain again. It seems to be adjusted ok, but when I pull the chain away from the rear sprocket where the chain has the most slack it pulls away enough that I can almost see an entire tooth. Rear sprocket teeth are also pretty chewed up, guessing the front is in similar condition, though I didn't pull the cover to look, just going to replace it.

2 questions:

First, how freely should the links move? While none of the links are kinked or frozen, most of them are quite stiff.

Second, how detrimental is riding with a worn chain? It will be a few days before I order the parts and the chain tool, but would like to keep riding so long as I am not going to tear anything up!

Thanks for all the help!

I'm a bit anal about chain/sprocket condition and maintenance because a chain break "could" bust your side case if it gets wadded at the primary drive sprocket, or worse yet it can lash at your leg. But, the 250 isn't a powerhouse and nearly as prone to snapping chains so you may be ok to ride it a bit until parts arrive.
How do the tires look? I've had vibes translate through a bike when a tire/wheel was out of balance. Does the vibration vary at different speeds, as in the frequency up or down? If so, it's likely an issue within one of the rotating masses like a wheel bearing, wheel balance, or your final drivetrain.

[biblefreak]

Originally Posted by Hellmutt

I'm a bit anal about chain/sprocket condition because a chain break "could" bust your side case if it gets wadded at the primary drive sprocket, or worse yet it can lash at your leg. But, the 250 isn't a powerhouse and nearly as prone to snapping chains so you may be ok to ride it a bit until parts arrive.
How do the tires look? I've had vibes translate through a bike when a tire/wheel was out of balance. Does the vibration vary at different speeds, as in the frequency up or down? If so, it's likely an issue within one of the rotating masses like a wheel bearing, wheel balance, or your final drivetrain.

Tires look good. There isn't any vibration to speak of, but the pulsing seems to increase in intensity and frequency with higher speed, but it doesn't seem to be a linear increase. This makes the chain make sense to me as the rotation of the wheel does not equal a rotation of the chain and would vary based on which gear your in, right?

[Hellmutt]

Originally Posted by biblefreak

Tires look good. There isn't any vibration to speak of, but the pulsing seems to increase in intensity and frequency with higher speed, but it doesn't seem to be a linear increase. This makes the chain make sense to me as the rotation of the wheel does not equal a rotation of the chain and would vary based on which gear your in, right?

I'm not fully understanding what you're calling a 'pulsing' then. Is it felt through the grips and footpegs? Or is this something you're just hearing while you ride?
Sounds as though the chain and sprockets should be replaced either way, so they're the simplest, logical starting point. Check the sides of the sprocket too, if there's wear on one side of the sprocket where the link plates of the chain pass over it, then the alignment could be off and be the issue.
And the chain and sprockets increase speed continually the faster the bike rolls, just as the wheels do, no matter which gear you're in.
I'm thinking most bases were covered with what's already been mentioned to check.
Chain/sprockets
Rear brake and rotor
Wheel bearings
Engine's moving parts
And it may not hurt to check out the front wheel and brakes since vibes can talk to you throughout the whole bike.

[MrAtom]

Had the same problem. Cleaned the chain properly and it went away. Came back, turned out I aligned it wrong and messed up my rear sprocket. I'm actually only posting this because I'm taking a break from installing new chain/sprockets right now haha.

[biblefreak]

Originally Posted by Hellmutt

I'm not fully understanding what you're calling a 'pulsing' then. Is it felt through the grips and footpegs? Or is this something you're just hearing while you ride?
Sounds as though the chain and sprockets should be replaced either way, so they're the simplest, logical starting point. Check the sides of the sprocket too, if there's wear on one side of the sprocket where the link plates of the chain pass over it, then the alignment could be off and be the issue.
And the chain and sprockets increase speed continually the faster the bike rolls, just as the wheels do, no matter which gear you're in.
I'm thinking most bases were covered with what's already been mentioned to check.
Chain/sprockets
Rear brake and rotor
Wheel bearings
Engine's moving parts
And it may not hurt to check out the front wheel and brakes since vibes can talk to you throughout the whole bike.

Think of an old school train. Chugga chugga, chugga chugga. Very rythmic, so guessing it is something that is going around, whether chain, gear, tire, etc. Not the motor, the problem exists when coasting, but the chugga chugga slows and lowers in intensity while coasting.

Alignment is on I think, measuring from the front of the swingarm to the center of the axle. Chain and sprockets seem to be a good starting point, so I will go ahead and order those first. I am guessing they are originals from the factory, so certainly can't hurt even if the problem ends up being something different.

[biblefreak]

Originally Posted by MrAtom

Had the same problem. Cleaned the chain properly and it went away. Came back, turned out I aligned it wrong and messed up my rear sprocket. I'm actually only posting this because I'm taking a break from installing new chain/sprockets right now haha.

Sorry to hear that! Guess I will read up on the best way to align this thing! What method did you use, and what are you doing this time?

[Hellmutt]

Originally Posted by biblefreak

Think of an old school train. Chugga chugga, chugga chugga. Very rythmic, so guessing it is something that is going around, whether chain, gear, tire, etc. Not the motor, the problem exists when coasting, but the chugga chugga slows and lowers in intensity while coasting.

Alignment is on I think, measuring from the front of the swingarm to the center of the axle. Chain and sprockets seem to be a good starting point, so I will go ahead and order those first. I am guessing they are originals from the factory, so certainly can't hurt even if the problem ends up being something different.

Gotcha. Chain and sprockets are quirpy little devices sometimes, and can be finicky if you don't get the alignment close to center.
I typically use line of sight along with my axle block markers ( which have never been dead nuts on any bike I've owned, but gets you in the ballpark ). With the bike on a rear stand, I get down to where I can look down the top run of the chain from rear to front and check how straight it is. If it arcs one direction or another, I adjust it until it's straight. Bike in neutral, roll the rear tire by hand and check it a couple times more to make sure and fine tune if needed.

[MrAtom]

Originally Posted by biblefreak

Sorry to hear that! Guess I will read up on the best way to align this thing! What method did you use, and what are you doing this time?

Before, I just counted the threads on the adjustment bolts. This time, I tried this:

http://www.motorcyclistonline.com/ho...rage-tech-tips

And, I just took the bike for a spin and got lost and went over 80 miles, and there is no noise at all coming from back there. My drivetrain is happy. The reason I only counted the bolts before was because my tires are weird and it was hard to tie the string around it in an exact horizontal line (the string kept wanting to fall into the tread pattern on only one side), so depending on your tire, you may have to get creative with how you tie it.

[biblefreak]

Thanks for all the help. I am going to check alignment today since there is virtually no cost. I will order a new chain and sprockets on Thursday.

Is there a preference between the 14T and the 15T front sprocket? All the kits I see are 14T/45T, so I would have to order separately if its really worth going 15T on front.

[Ghostt]

If you do a lot of highway miles I would recommend the 15T, if your mostly doing city/local I would stick with the 14T.

As I do mostly highway miles I went with 15T/43T.

[biblefreak]

Originally Posted by Ghostt

If you do a lot of highway miles I would recommend the 15T, if your mostly doing city/local I would stick with the 14T.

As I do mostly highway miles I went with 15T/43T.

Know of any charts that reference the speed/rpm difference for different sprocket size combinations?

[csmith12]

Originally Posted by biblefreak

Ok, just checked the chain again. It seems to be adjusted ok, but when I pull the chain away from the rear sprocket where the chain has the most slack it pulls away enough that I can almost see an entire tooth. Rear sprocket teeth are also pretty chewed up, guessing the front is in similar condition, though I didn't pull the cover to look, just going to replace it.

2 questions:

First, how freely should the links move? While none of the links are kinked or frozen, most of them are quite stiff.

Second, how detrimental is riding with a worn chain? It will be a few days before I order the parts and the chain tool, but would like to keep riding so long as I am not going to tear anything up!

Thanks for all the help!

Your chain can grind even if the links are not frozen. When a link seal fails (X or O) it no longer holds lubricant well and will grind and make noise.

Riding with a worn chain is roll of the dice chance with time, and if it breaks, it will be a dance with the devil. Since yea... it's just a 250, so you chances of the chain braking are somewhat diminished, it can still happen. Soaking it overnight will buy you some time, but that is all.

[csmith12]

Originally Posted by biblefreak

Know of any charts that reference the speed/rpm difference for different sprocket size combinations?

This should help. http://faq.ninja250.org/speed/#noredir

[biblefreak]

Originally Posted by csmith12

This should help. http://faq.ninja250.org/speed/#noredir

Perfect, thanks.

[MrAtom]

Originally Posted by biblefreak

Thanks for all the help. I am going to check alignment today since there is virtually no cost. I will order a new chain and sprockets on Thursday.

Is there a preference between the 14T and the 15T front sprocket? All the kits I see are 14T/45T, so I would have to order separately if its really worth going 15T on front.

I went with 15t after having 14t for a while. I really like the 15t, even for the city. Thing is, the first gear on the ninja is so short that it's actually quicker and takes less thought for me to move quickly because it makes the 1st gear a little longer, but this is someone who's never afraid to redline it when it's warmed up, so your choice. Also, I'm about 150lbs. A lot of people who ride the ninja are bigger. Someone also might bring up that you have to slip the clutch on it a little more from a stop, but I don't think it's a problem. Just ask @greenaero, the guy with the tallest gearing ever how his clutch is holding up. My bike is also naked, so it's not very aerodynamic. On the highway, it used to scream at 9500, now it's down to 8000. It's all personal preference, though. I can tell you that I personally really like the 15t front sprocket.

And, for what it's worth, if you need to replace parts, I bought this chain:

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00...?ie=UTF8&psc=1

This front sprocket:

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00...?ie=UTF8&psc=1

And this rear sprocket:

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00...?ie=UTF8&psc=1

They all come together in one package, because they're all in the same amazon warehouse.

[greenaero]

You pinged!

For me personally, I think installing taller gearing is one of the best modifications for the NInjette if you ride on freeways a lot and are interested in getting great fuel economy. I run a 15T/37T on my partially streamlined 2005 Ninjette ( 70 mph @6500 rpm, best tankfill 111 mpg) and I run 15T/33T on my fully sreamlined 1999 Ninjette ( 70mph@ 5900 rpm, best tankfill 187 mpg) . I have found that the 15t/37T combo is about the maximum one can change to without totally killing your acceleration capabilities. Running 15T/33T makes your Ninjette a dog without full streamlining. You do have to slip the clutch more than stock but I have never yet needed to replace a clutch after running with very tall gearing for over 30K miles. I have encountered uphill starts that were too steep for my 15/33 combo to work on but it was very steep.