Rev matching and braking at the same time

[anacron]

Any tips on the technique for doing this properly?

Muscle memory has set-in and I've enjoyed being able to smoothly downshift with rev matching. However, I can't wrap my head around doing that while braking.

Current way of doing things: Anticipate the corner, start rev matching downshifts (until I hit the right gear for the corner) and then brake to bring down the revs + accelerate through the corner. This seems inefficient though...
My main issue is that you need to pull the throttle quite a bit (take up slack + enough gas for 1k+ revs). When I try both I end up front braking a little too much.

[JELY1990]

I rev match and brake at the same time by using my index and middle finger for the brake lever and the rest of my hand to blip the throttle.

[Sirref]

for one 2 finger braking, always
as for the need to rev up a bunch, I always found that with the clutch in I could get it to rev freely enough though my 250 had "adjusted levers" (aka bent via lowside and too cheap to replace) which were closer in and I have adjustable shorty levers on my 300 which are way closer in than stock so you can always try that to give your wrist more free movement alongside that try to do the 2 finger braking with the tips of your fingers rather than curling them around it. if that's too uncomfortable to do then don't bother but it works for me after I got used to it (first time I didn't anticipate how much more I needed to try to apply the same pressure)

[Motofool]

Originally Posted by anacron

...........
My main issue is that you need to pull the throttle quite a bit (take up slack + enough gas for 1k+ revs). When I try both I end up front braking a little too much.

Adi,

If your hands are short and your front brake lever is original (non-adjustable), the technique of two fingers (index and middle) braking simultaneously with the rest of the fingers operating the throttle may not work so well.

In that case, complete all the braking first and then downshift matching rpms, then lean the bike, look deep into the turn and roll-on the throttle smoothly and constantly.

You don't need to gain 1K rpm during the turn, much less be looking at the instruments.
All the bike needs is a gentle constant acceleration that keeps the suspension and the 40/60 weight distribution: that is a gain of 2~4 mph for each second of turning.

Check this thread and video:

http://www.ninjette.org/forums/showt...t=downshifting

[csmith12]

Adjustable levers (if needed)
Use 2 fingers
Let those 2 fingers slide over the lever (takes some practice)
You may need to adjust your throttle cable slack or you might have to turn your wrist too far, I went from 5mm to 2 mm of slack if I remember correctly to fine tune my bike for blipping (personal preference)
To large of blip, it only takes a little

[Nemesis]

Man, I really gotta learn how to do this if I wanna get faster.

The hardest part for me (from a racing perspective) is with every blip (2x) I get this brake/off brake/brake/off brake effect if you know what I mean and end up running off the road. How do you overcome this especially when you come upon a turn where you have to brake late and HARD?

[csmith12]

Pogoing, yep. Fingers must slide across the lever as you twist your wrist my good man. After doing it a while, you will be able to modulate or increase the pressure as you slide for those hard braking, hot and late corner entries.

[Nemesis]

IDK...maybe I'll continue with just modulating the clutch which pretty much has the same effect.

[rojoracing53]

One thing that come to mind is make sure you have very little to no throttle slop because that can only make it harder to control just the right amount of throttle to rev match.

Although this isn't exactly what you looking for it is a good example of another method of hand controls and corner entry. Plus down a ways there another video someone posted that I think has a good example of blipping the throttle and braking.

http://www.ninjette.org/forums/showt...463#post719463

[Gurk]

I'll mention here again what Jason Pridmore / Star School teaches about downshifting.

He says blipping the throttle is an awesome technique. But A LOT of people end up screwing up hard braking because of it himself included. What he does instead of blipping throttle is:

When you start rolling off the throttle, you already start your downshifts. Like, IMMEDIATELY.

What this does is exactly what you achieve by blipping the throttle. He's already on really high rpms. So no need to "match rpms" You're already there! This gives you a lot of engine brake so you can brake way later too.

Clutchside, important thing is to not pull it ALL THE WAY. but half distance from the bar. Also not letting go fast. You almost "feed" it back like you would on a race start.

Watch him below. Notice how he IMMEDIATELY shifts down once he's starting to roll off the throttle (he's done shifting before he even let's off all of the throttle)

Link to original page on YouTube.



PS: I'm not sure if you're practicing this on street or track though. Obviously on the street it's harder to apply the technique I mentioned above as you don't always ride close to redline revs so you might HAVE TO blip. Anyway.

[alex.s]

Originally Posted by Gurk

I'll mention here again what Jason Pridmore / Star School teaches about downshifting.

He says blipping the throttle is an awesome technique. But A LOT of people end up screwing up hard braking because of it himself included. What he does instead of blipping throttle is:

When you start rolling off the throttle, you already start your downshifts. Like, IMMEDIATELY.

What this does is exactly what you achieve by blipping the throttle. He's already on really high rpms. So no need to "match rpms" You're already there! This gives you a lot of engine brake so you can brake way later too.

Clutchside, important thing is to not pull it ALL THE WAY. but half distance from the bar. Also not letting go fast. You almost "feed" it back like you would on a race start.

Watch him below. Notice how he IMMEDIATELY shifts down once he's starting to roll off the throttle (he's done shifting before he even let's off all of the throttle)

Link to original page on YouTube.



PS: I'm not sure if you're practicing this on street or track though. Obviously on the street it's harder to apply the technique I mentioned above as you don't always ride close to redline revs so you might HAVE TO blip. Anyway.

you know 250s are different and ****, right? they aren't like real bikes. its cool though i suck at shifting so i shouldn't talk lol


but for real- you downshift like that on the 250 and you're going to blow your engine... ask me how i know

[anacron]

Originally Posted by Motofool

Adi,

If your hands are short and your front brake lever is original (non-adjustable), the technique of two fingers (index and middle) braking simultaneously with the rest of the fingers operating the throttle may not work so well.

In that case, complete all the barking first and then downshift matching rpms, then lean the bike, look deep into the turn and roll-on the throttle smoothly and constantly.

You don't need to gain 1K rpm during the turn, much less be looking at the instruments.
All the bike needs is a gentle constant acceleration that keeps the suspension and the 40/60 weight distribution: that is a gain of 2~4 mph for each second of turning.

Check this thread and video:

http://www.ninjette.org/forums/showt...t=downshifting

I don't think hand size is an issue. I can comfortably reach both levers. I did notice this morning that I typically choke-up on the handlebars (hands closer to the inside than the bar-ends). As a result, I lose the natural leverage that operating the brake lever closer to the the bar-end affords (basically I use more force to start the braking; need more fingers, etc.)

@csmith12 Thanks, I'll start practicing the 2 finger technique.

@Gurk hmm... it seems like I do a street-version of what he does, except I need to slow down quite a bit in case of traffic rather than maintaining high revs and accelerate through the corner (hence why I'd like to learn braking + downshifting at the same time).

I can see how this method would be appropriate for the track - but pretty hard on the engine, no? What with all the engine braking...

[alex.s]

Originally Posted by csmith12

Adjustable levers (if needed)
Use 2 fingers
Let those 2 fingers slide over the lever (takes some practice)
You may need to adjust your throttle cable slack or you might have to turn your wrist too far, I went from 5mm to 2 mm of slack if I remember correctly to fine tune my bike for blipping (personal preference)
To large of blip, it only takes a little

i don't think my fingers slide on the brake at all. i do it a weird way, 5% clutch, two finger brake, but my thumb stays on the bottom of the tube instead of really grabbing the bar like a dick... that way i can easily rotate my wrist without changing the first two fingers position in relation to the brake lever... not sure if that description makes sense, i'll take video later.

[Gurk]

Originally Posted by anacron

@Gurk hmm... it seems like I do a street-version of what he does, except I need to slow down quite a bit in case of traffic rather than maintaining high revs and accelerate through the corner (hence why I'd like to learn braking + downshifting at the same time).

I can see how this method would be appropriate for the track - but pretty hard on the engine, no? What with all the engine braking...

Slowing down quite a bit before shifting defeats the purpose. But I agree maybe it's not suitable for street.

[Gurk]

Originally Posted by alex.s

you know 250s are different and ****, right? they aren't like real bikes. its cool though i suck at shifting so i shouldn't talk lol


but for real- you downshift like that on the 250 and you're going to blow your engine... ask me how i know

He seems to be doing juuuuust fine.

Link to original page on YouTube.

[alex.s]

gurk, notice the massive difference in clutch usage between jason and ... the other jason. one bike has a slipper, and so jason #1 essentially doesn't use his clutch. the other bike has no slipper, so jason #2 is using a big handful of clutch slip to use low rpm engine brake. if you think that's the same thing........ well.... lol



in terms of downblipping on the street, its probably pointless

[csmith12]

Originally Posted by anacron

I can see how this method would be appropriate for the track - but pretty hard on the engine, no? What with all the engine braking...

If you have "too much" engine braking, your most likely downshifting to early. Most of your slowing down force should be coming from... yea... the brakes.

[csmith12]

Originally Posted by Nemesis

IDK...maybe I'll continue with just modulating the clutch which pretty much has the same effect.

Whatever works for you is da It's quite fun and takes less attention to detail when you burn it into muscle memory though. js

[anacron]

Originally Posted by csmith12

If you have "too much" engine braking, your most likely downshifting to early. Most of your slowing down force should be coming from... yea... the brakes.

Nope no issues with hard engine braking. In the context of street riding, I pop down 2-3 gears w/ rev match, brake and then accelerate through. If its not a corner and I need a complete stop I just brake to a stop and then pop down to 1st.

Should I rev match 1st? I tend not to because I haven't developed a good feel for when to shift down to 1st w/ respect to rear wheel speed.

I completely acknowledge that these are minor details for street riding, but I'd like to develop good technique.

[csmith12]

Nah, don't worry about rev matching first. The only time I have seen rev matching for 1st gear is at the cart track on little bikes. And I blip on the street too, just at lower speeds and rpms. For me it's about practice, practice and more practice and... since the blip/downshift takes less than a second it helps keep my attention where it needs to be... on the street.

[Motofool]

Originally Posted by anacron

I don't think hand size is an issue. I can comfortably reach both levers. I did notice this morning that I typically choke-up on the handlebars (hands closer to the inside than the bar-ends). As a result, I lose the natural leverage that operating the brake lever closer to the the bar-end affords (basically I use more force to start the braking; need more fingers, etc.).........

Then, correcting that hands' position should be your first step.
It is always good to have a relaxed grip, something like holding a dental paste tube.
Those are not hand-grips but hand-resters; hence, your hands should float just over them.

The two fingers braking doesn't use the full leverage by default; however, the applied force is sufficient for normal street riding and somehow limits the danger of a panic sudden grab, which can block the front wheel up and inducing a front tuck or low-side fall.

Downshifting is just for matching rpms' of crankshaft and rear wheel, so the engine stays in the high torque zone for when leaving the turn.
The braking effect of downshifting is optional.
That means that the rider can under rev the engine on purpose, so it rotates slower than the wheel (relatively speaking), inducing an engine brake effect while clutching-out.
The rider can also rev the engine sufficiently, so it rotates as fast as the wheel (relatively speaking), inducing no engine brake effect while clutching-out.
In the second case, the brakes do all the deceleration (after the initial deceleration caused by the initial throttle roll-off).

As you can see in previous posts, there are many ways to slowdown a bike before or during a turn (not all turns require deceleration) and to set the transmission in the more appropriate rate or gears' combination to have decent torque to speed up again at the end of the turn.
The important point is that you should learn and practice what is more comfortable to you, physiologically and physically.
This is more mental and visual work than anything else.

[ChickenRun]

I use the rear brake while downshifting if I need to stop or slow faster than normal. It also seems to eliminate the forward jerk when I rev too high while downshifting.

[anacron]

@Motofool Thanks again for the detailed rundown

[Gurk]

Originally Posted by alex.s

gurk, notice the massive difference in clutch usage between jason and ... the other jason. one bike has a slipper, and so jason #1 essentially doesn't use his clutch. the other bike has no slipper, so jason #2 is using a big handful of clutch slip to use low rpm engine brake. if you think that's the same thing........ well.... lol



in terms of downblipping on the street, its probably pointless

There's always the alternative that "you worked on your engine" before it blew. You've done it a multiple times now haven't you? Just like the time you worked on Max's shock and it failed...

Maybe it's just you. Well.. Probably.

[alex.s]

Originally Posted by Gurk

There's always the alternative that "you worked on your engine" before it blew. You've done it a multiple times now haven't you? Just like the time you worked on Max's shock and it failed...

Maybe it's just you. Well.. Probably.

redirect the fact that you were wrong by trying to insult others. politics 101, you'll be king some day!

[Gurk]

Originally Posted by alex.s

redirect the fact that you were wrong by trying to insult others. politics 101, you'll be king some day!

the fact is you went from blowing the engine to how much jason 1/2 are engaging the clutch. i'll redirect to ANYTHING instead of talking motorcycles with you cause it's proven to be comparable to pissing in the wind. You think you know everything and better than everyone. I only repeat stuff I've learned from people who'd ride backwards and lap you while laugh at your face.

You can't discuss something with someone who thinks they're the best.. Mr.BestMechanic in the west

[Gurk]

You know? I'll admit this is all my fault. I apologize from everyone.

I'll never hit the "view post" button again.

tata!

[Old Lemon]

I started practicing this getting off the highway. At first i just put my fingers on the brake but didnt use it and downshifted (i use all 4 btw). As i got more comfortable with it i started to squeeze in the lever and gradually got better. Now I can do no problem if i find my self coming to a corner too fast

[adouglas]

I have small hands.

Might just be me, but I find using index and middle fingers to brake rather awkward and uncomfortable. I prefer using my middle, ring and little fingers to brake, controlling the throttle with index, thumb and palm.

Anybody else do this?

[Motofool]

Originally Posted by anacron

@Motofool Thanks again for the detailed rundown

You are welcome, Adi.

Never mind those lovely previous posts (#24 thru #27), ......that is just an old and ongoing romance.

[Gurk]

Originally Posted by Motofool

You are welcome, Adi.

Never mind those lovely previous posts (#24 thru #27), ......that is just an old and ongoing romance.

threw up in my mouth!

[anacron]

Originally Posted by Motofool

You are welcome, Adi.

Never mind those lovely previous posts (#24 thru #27), ......that is just an old and ongoing romance.

LOL!! A happy married life. Just kidding, don't ban me too

[anacron]

Just got back from a brisk, night ride. Tried out the two finger technique. Got a few really good rev matched downshifts while braking. Needless to say, I need to practice but quite fun to try out.

Felt really natural when I got it right.

[JohnnyBravo]

just the way it should feel when you get it right

[ally99]

Originally Posted by Motofool

Never mind those lovely previous posts (#24 thru #27), ......that is just an old and ongoing romance.

Exactly! That's a great lead-in to my main point...

Originally Posted by Gurk

the fact is you went from blowing the engine to how much jason 1/2 are engaging the clutch. i'll redirect to ANYTHING instead of talking motorcycles with you cause it's proven to be comparable to pissing in the wind. You think you know everything and better than everyone. I only repeat stuff I've learned from people who'd ride backwards and lap you while laugh at your face.

You can't discuss something with someone who thinks they're the best.. Mr.BestMechanic in the west

I teach elementary school. This post reminded me of how my 2nd and 3rd graders act when they have a crush on a boy or a girl. Aww, Gurk! That's so romantic!

[Gurk]

Originally Posted by ally99

I teach elementary school. This post reminded me of how my 2nd and 3rd graders act when they have a crush on a boy or a girl. Aww, Gurk! That's so romantic!

Oh no I wouldn't wanna have anything to do with your boyfriend ally. Don't feel threatened at all. I know he's probably more into guys but no need to feel insecure. I'm not gonna take your long distance boyfriend Weren't you guys humping like what? a week ago?

[ally99]

Originally Posted by Gurk

Oh no I wouldn't wanna have anything to do with your boyfriend ally. Don't feel threatened at all. I know he's probably more into guys but no need to feel insecure. I'm not gonna take your long distance boyfriend Weren't you guys humping like what? a week ago?

Are you sure you're not really in 2nd grade? I was kidding at first, though your cute little posts actually did remind me of my young students, but now I'm starting to wonder if I was on to something! You've already taken teacher's favorite advice. "Ignore him and he'll go away honey."
Regardless, I'll rest better at night knowing you're not after my guy. I'm sure there's a perfect man out there for you somewhere! Here's a good place for you to start looking since your crush is already taken.
http://gaysportbikeriders.com/

[Alex]

[sLick415]

I wanted to click on that to see if it was a real site. But does that make me gay? Hmm... I'd better not...

[Gurk]

The new generation is in great hands.

Yep. I'm a gay second grader that doesn't wanna grow up to be you. I'm tooootally fine with that ally

You guys belong together <3