July 13th, 2013, 11:50 PM | #41 | |
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A. medical insurance B. helmets C. Age dose not mater for skill level or how they ride. Sorry this is a pathetic reason to try and say why they have this law in FL. If it was to keep cost down they make a law requiring them no matter what. I don't see how the road is going to care when your face hits it if your 18 or 45
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July 13th, 2013, 11:58 PM | #42 | |
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You're right the ground does not care how cool you looked while its cheese grading your face! But the 21 thing gives time for kids to mature before they make the decision to ride without a helmet And those people you "know" are breaking the law
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July 14th, 2013, 12:06 AM | #43 |
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See the interesting thing tho is the age 21 think about all the maturing they do tell that magic number comes along and they can now go out to a bar and get drunk and ride with no helmet. If and only if I was going to support this law it be a better age like 25 as that gives a little bit of time for them to pass the party stage of life.
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July 14th, 2013, 12:08 AM | #44 | |
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July 14th, 2013, 12:46 AM | #45 | ||||
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More over this goes to a root issue of the government enforcing this I know whats better for you than you do attitude. I have the right to choose how much risk I am willing to accept. If this is affecting your insurance then the problem is the insurance system not my right to freedom. My age is irrelevant to my freedom, once I became an adult the choice was mine. Sure I might make poor choices but they are mine to make. |
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July 14th, 2013, 04:06 AM | #46 |
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Blah blah blah bullshit helmet laws, blah blah blah government takin' way ma freederm! Blah blah blah descrimination! Blah blah blah personal choices! Blah blah blah.
You lot don't half whinge. Man up. |
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July 14th, 2013, 05:16 AM | #47 |
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The helmet law in FL is not the same thing as the under 21 tag law. However, it does seem to be a sneaky way to enforce the under 21 helmet law. But its more like making younger people carry a sign that says "Hey cops, come and pick on me." The under 21 law is a secondary offense so they can't stop you because you "look" young.
But when the cops aren't looking, a squid is a squid and isn't going to change because of a sign. Also, in FL its illegal to have dark tinted windows on your car because cops want to be able to see what you are doing and what you look like. But its perfectly legal in all 50 states AFAIK for a biker to go ATGATT and be covered from head to toe - thus preventing a cop from making a positive ID. So when someone is ATGATT, the cops have a harder time telling age - but the point is, they shouldn't need to know that in the first place. One thing for sure is that I see a lot more guys in the 40+ group going helmetless than I do in the 21-30 group. There aren't that many guys 25-35 out there at all because of wives and girlfriends demanding that they sell the bike and buy a minivan for the kids.
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July 14th, 2013, 05:43 AM | #48 | |
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As for the FL law, it seems like another way for the state to make revenue. Does Florida require a helmet for riders with less than a year of having their motorcycle endorsement no matter what age? |
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July 14th, 2013, 07:36 AM | #49 |
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@n4mwd, on the tint vs ATGATT thoughts:
I think the the tint law is more to allow officers to see the actions (reaching for weapon, hiding something, acting generally funny) of the driver. The difference between a car with tinted windows and a rider in a full suit/gloves/boots/helmet is that you can see the actions of the rider very clearly. You're going to see if he/she's fidgeting/hiding something/reaching for something. But you are right, it's very hard to tell the age/gender/race/build of a rider in full gear. That's why I've been pulled over: I was riding home one night and a local (very proffesional and respectful I might add) officer pulled me over to check on my license status. Riding at night is not allowed in OH with a temporary permit, and since I was an obviously brand new rider (still wobbly at lights ) he pulled me over to chat and remind me that riders with their temps aren't supposed to be riding at night. Once he saw that I had an actual M endorsement, it was a non-issue and we chatted for a minute in the parking lot where I pulled into. Now, my local officers all recognize me and wave/chat when they see me. |
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July 14th, 2013, 09:40 AM | #50 | ||
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July 14th, 2013, 10:02 AM | #51 |
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^^ I love when people try and convince me that my bike is too quiet, even with a full exhaust system.
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July 14th, 2013, 10:03 AM | #52 | |
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As far as tint; police cars have blacked out windows, does this mean they are all breaking the law?
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July 14th, 2013, 11:10 AM | #53 |
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When I registered my bike in florida, I wae told I needed insurance or a helmet to purchase plates.Auto plates require proof of insurance. The laws here are strange.
Under 21 requites helmet, if you are on a bike with these plates,and no helmet, youwill get pulled over. If under 21 you loose your bike licence. They do this to keep kids from killing them selves while they arelearning how to ride. If old people kill them selves before they learn how to ride, too bad. Thats just how florida does it. |
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July 14th, 2013, 12:01 PM | #54 | |
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July 14th, 2013, 12:16 PM | #55 |
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I live in Florida, have an Under 21 tag and could really care less about it. I've been pulled over on several occasions, none of which were for my Under 21 tag and was never hassled about my age just the typical "You were doing 6mph over the posted limit, watch your speed, have a good night"
I think that the helmet law here is absurd though. You're allowed to not wear a helmet if you have $10,000 in medical coverage. What is $10,000 going to do for someone with a traumatic head injury? Probably cover the ambulance ride and that's about it, EMS helicopter rides are $30k...
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July 14th, 2013, 05:37 PM | #56 |
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Helmets are a good safety tool, but don't delude yourself into thinking you can't be hurt or killed while wearing one. If you hit your helmet at a speed greater than 15 mph, you're going to have a brain injury. So don't do that.
But reading between the lines, they seem to have stopped you because you had an under 21 tag. If he knew for a fact (assuming he had some kind of radar) that you were doing exactly 6 mph over the limit, then its really unusual for him to stop you at all. In FL, you are allowed 5 mph before they can give you a ticket. And the radar has an error of +/- 1-2 mph. So basically, whether you realized it or not, the cop was picking on you.
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July 14th, 2013, 06:01 PM | #57 | |
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July 15th, 2013, 12:42 AM | #58 |
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I entirely disagree with pointing out the age of a rider on their plate as I think it will draw undue attention by police and regular people. As far as the helmet thing goes though, I don't care if you are 18, 19, 29 or 70, wear a damn helmet. Who cares if the law says you need to or not. It's your head though.
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July 15th, 2013, 04:50 AM | #59 |
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why are we even treating an 18yr old as a kid.
they should be able to handle themselves just fine. they need more responsibility not less.
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July 15th, 2013, 05:00 AM | #60 |
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Good point. If a guy is old enough to vote and old enough to serve in the military, then he should be old enough to ride a motorcycle without being singled out for being younger.
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July 15th, 2013, 05:04 AM | #61 |
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Seen the tint comment in here;
Just an FYI; I have lived in FL my whole life..and since I was 16 have been running limo tint on my vehicles. Have been pulled over, have been in traffic checks, sobriety checks, ect...and never once got hassled for my limo tint. Maybe because i'm a lil white girl in a Scion? Something tells me they would be more concerned with the 6'4" thug in a jacked up cadillac on 24"s lol
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July 15th, 2013, 05:05 AM | #62 |
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Makes me think of the handicap plates, when those cars are driven by a different person. You know where they park! Its the person not the car thats handicapped.
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July 15th, 2013, 05:54 AM | #63 | |
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July 15th, 2013, 06:54 AM | #64 | |
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the law doesn't benefit society or the individual. it just makes the government into a nanny for the underdeveloped adults it creates. the difference between me and your lawmakers is i see great potential in young adults, while they gave up and made a padded room constructed with BS laws...
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July 15th, 2013, 06:59 AM | #65 | |
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Might as well then have special "Under 21" uniforms in the Military.
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July 15th, 2013, 07:23 AM | #66 |
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@lgk RE: Nanny state? You could argue that it's not the government creating these nanny state laws it's a permissive parenting attitude, the lack of basic responsibilities, and dearth of civic awareness, and the misguided sense of self entitlement that American's feel is their right today
Helmet laws are a great example of this. 1. Some people claim it's a personal "right" to not wear a helmet. 2. Riders without helmets cost the state/taxpayer more money than helmeted riders when they crash. 3. State creates law making to A.) Save lives B.) Reduce the financial burden on the taxpayers. 4. People claim their rights are being infringed and lament the creation of "nanny" laws. People can exercise their "right" not to wear helmets all they want. But these same people should pay more not to wear a helmet because everyone bears the burden (taxpayers and riders in the form of higher insurance premiums). How is that fair? |
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July 15th, 2013, 07:34 AM | #67 | |
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July 15th, 2013, 07:50 AM | #68 |
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#2 isn't really true. Its propaganda. Bikers tend to have just as much or more private insurance coverage as other people. So they are paying their own way. And in many cases, its the guy that pulled out in front of them that actually pays.
If they crash, it can be expensive with or without a helmet. And in many cases, cheaper without, because a biker without a helmet has a greater chance of being killed, and as such, has less, not more, medical expenses. If you look at some "fortified" statistics, you'll see that bikers who experience "Traumatic Brain Injuries" or "TBI's" have big bills, but again, that is a concentrated statistic because it doesn't take the number of bikers who never made it to the hospital into account. So helmets are something everyone should wear, but not wearing one doesn't really cost anybody else anything. If the government really wants to do something stupid to protect bikers from injuries, then they should ban all cars and trucks from the road. That would save a lot more lives than a helmet law.
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July 15th, 2013, 07:57 AM | #69 | ||||||
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theres no self correction, and culling of unrealistic poorly cultivated people. Quote:
i wouldn't want to risk living like a vegetable, but they are welcome to. Quote:
the ins co. could put helmets as a requirement to be covered, since they control the policy and payout. Quote:
they should just let people take pictures of dodos and meet Darwin. Quote:
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whether or not they decide to make discounts or cover somebody who habitually rides helmetless is purely up to them. sorry, but you should know that life isn't fair...
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July 15th, 2013, 08:12 AM | #70 |
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Hm. I'll just add this to the list of reasons why i'll never live in Florida.
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July 15th, 2013, 08:16 AM | #71 | |
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@lgk - http://www.nhtsa.gov/people/injury/p...ike/costs.html
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My point is if you don't want to wear a helmet fine. But then my health insurance, vehicle insurance, or taxes shouldn't be impacted. @Trubin - It's not about "weeding" people out or some misguided understanding of Darwinism. This is a morbid idea but assuming that riding without a helmet is a function of intelligence (it's not, but intelligence is easier to quantify than judgement versus risk versus whatever else). To raise the average IQ of the world to 110. You'd have to cull 2 billion of the least intelligent people. A handful of helmetless riders needlessly dying is mathematically meaningless. |
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July 15th, 2013, 08:47 AM | #72 | ||
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July 15th, 2013, 08:58 AM | #73 | |
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the helmetless rider/ins co. would pay for his own medical treatment, if the ins co. got tired of payout then they would quit covering them along with medical /life ins., then the rider himself would decide if the cost was acceptable. the cost, wouldn't impact you at all, it would be borne/die with the individual. as it should be.
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July 15th, 2013, 09:01 AM | #74 | |
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July 15th, 2013, 09:02 AM | #75 | |
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July 15th, 2013, 09:30 AM | #76 | |
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My point is, Let us have a choice, let us have freedom. Everyone chooses his/her own level of risk. There will always be some sort of unhealthy behavior that will cost taxpayers money.
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July 15th, 2013, 09:33 AM | #77 |
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^Sorry I meant to quote panda and the Link of the California study^
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July 15th, 2013, 09:55 AM | #78 | |
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It cost money out of my pocket for somebody else to engage in a behavior that I don't approve of, condone, or agree with. That's almost the exact opposite of freedom. Smokers pay for their decision to smoke by commensurate taxes per pack and higher insurance premiums. |
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July 15th, 2013, 10:58 AM | #79 |
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Yes, its part of the DOT helmet standard. Under 15 mph = "protected" and over 15mph = "Not protected" - from direct impacts. In reality, a helmet reduces the effective impact speed by about 15mph. And that is still better than no reduction at all.
Someone who low sides on the track is only experiencing about a 10 mph impact regardless of the speed of the bike. Thats the vertical speed, not the horizontal speed. But if they plow into a brick wall at 45 mph, they are probably dead meat - with or without a helmet. Where a helmet really protects the most is from abrasive injuries. So a guy at the track can fall off his bike at 150 mph and not have a single scratch on his head. But in terms of medical costs, the TBI is the biggest thing. That said, the more serious TBI's are obtained at speeds greater than 15 mph. So wearing a helmet really doesn't make you that much less of a risk for a TBI. So if you just fall off your bike and lowside, your helmet will work great. But if you crash straight into something hard, then unless you are going less than 15 mph, you will mangle your brain. I have personally known more riders to die with helmets than without. But that's just because there are more people riding with helmets. In the club, there are a bunch of guys that have been mangled, but not one has had a TBI. About half ride without helmets. So if riding without a helmet means you are selfish, then you should sell the bike and buy a minivan with 52 airbags, because riding in general is medically risky.
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July 15th, 2013, 11:10 AM | #80 | ||||
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It kind of sounds like you are arguing against helmets in general. Do you doubt the efficacy of helmets? |
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