is lowering your chance of a fatality by 37% worth it?

[azn370z]

It is for me what about you?

Proven benefits Studies of fatal crashes, insurance claims and test track performance all confirm the importance of antilock brakes.

Fewer deaths The rate of fatal crashes is 37 percent lower for motorcycles equipped with optional ABS than for those same models without ABS.

Insurance Institute for Highway Safety, 2011

Fewer crashes Collision insurance claims for motorcycles with ABS are filed 23 percent less frequently than for motorcycles without it.

Highway Loss Data Institute, 2012

Shorter stopping distances On the test track, both new and experienced riders stop more quickly with antilock brakes. Stopping distances improve on wet and dry surfaces alike.

Austrian Road Safety Board, 2004; National Highway Traffic Safety Administration, 2006

[Malicious Logic]

I've always just assumed ABS were nice to have but not a necessity and that both practice/proper braking technique along with being aware of your surroundings so you're not braking for something you could've avoided is just as good. If it's an option on a new bike I'm buying, sure, I'll pay the extra for it but it's not really something I'm dying to have or anything.

[Soujyu]

Remember, these are statistics. All it does is show a relationship between two factors (ABS and no ABS).

Now, granted, having a bike with ABS is nice. However, the way you ride and your skills have just as big of an impact in surviving an accident as ABS does.

[bbonds007]

I know I will definitely get ABS the next time I upgrade, even if its $500 more. Does that mean I am going to spend $6000 and buy a new 2013 right away just for ABS? Nope, but I will get one in 3-5 years when they drop to $3k.

[Jiggles]

ABS, Instead of lowsiding you'll do an endo

[Toly]

Sorry, but I can't resist this: If ABS can lower the risk 37% imagine what learning to ride properly would do...

[lgk]

i wonder how it effects the handful of brake while already in the middle of a turn?

[CZroe]

Correlation does not equal causation. The statistic is formed by riders who are more safety-conscious and, thus, they are the ones who are going to pay more for safety features like ABS. They are also going to spend on more and better gear than risk-taking thrill-seekers who don't care enough about safety to have purchased ABS. Therefore, anyone who would have joined the non-ABS group who was instead convinced to buy ABS by this statistic alone does not fall in the same risk category as the ones who formed the statistic. It does nothing to convince these new ABS converts to buy more gear or ride more conservatively or take safety classes or anything else that correlates with the statistic-forming ABS buyers, thus, they will not be "37% less likely to die."

I'm not saying that the statistics come from some placebo effect because I, too, believe ABS can and does prevent crashes and shortens stopping distance, but it actually is possible to get similar statistics from completely bogus assumptions. You could take a helmet that's proven superior to the competition and promote it as such with a premium price while simultaneously selling an identical but secretly rebranded one as the cheapest option to unaware buyers who are only buying it because they are legally required to and you will find that the ones spending more on it are less likely to die. It doesn't mean that spending more lowers your chances of dying in an accident. Being safety-minded and taking action to maintain safety even if it costs more money is what lowers your chances more than anything else.

When this is factored in, the cost/benefit ratio does not always make monetary sense even for many safety-conscious riders who may instead choose spend the difference on a better helmet and an MSF course. If you can afford ABS, by all means: GET IT! When I can afford another bike, I intend to.

[Firehorse]

Originally Posted by Jiggles

ABS, Instead of lowsiding you'll do an endo

Um, no.

I think that anyone who is commenting on abs should take a look at the videos, reviews etc. It may get rid of a lot of myths about the new abs systems on bikes. There are at least three different ones.

You still need to learn how to ride properly and keep upgrading your skills including emergency braking. The abs does not just kick in with hard braking. Nope. It seems that many reviewers had a tough time getting them to fire because it's not so easy to 'fake' a real emergency stop. A good rider like those reviewing and testing new bikes can e-brake very well thus not triggering the abs.
Watch the videos from the testing, BMW and Honda have some out there. You can see how effective they are when the rider tries to brake "badly" or in unfortunate circumstances like corners.

Look them up, it IS your life after all right?

I'd pay extra for them.

[Firehorse]

Originally Posted by CZroe

Correlation does not equal causation.....

snippity-snip


If you can afford ABS, by all means: GET IT! When I can afford another bike, I intend to.

Yep, those stats are a little skewed by circumstances eh?
An idiot squid won't be helped by abs because he will be following a truck by .5 seconds...

[IdRatherDrum]

I'd say it's worth it. The more I'm protected the better!

[Bigballsofpaint]

If i wasnt getting a deal on older over-stock bike i would be looking into ABS, but alas they dont seem to be dropping the price of it too much. How much more would you willing to pay for ABS? 500, 2500?

[Whiskey]

Originally Posted by CZroe

Correlation does not equal causation. The statistic is formed by riders who are more safety-conscious and, thus, they are the ones who are going to pay more for safety features like ABS. They are also going to spend on more and better gear than risk-taking thrill-seekers who don't care enough about safety to have purchased ABS. Therefore, anyone who would have joined the non-ABS group who was instead convinced to buy ABS by this statistic alone does not fall in the same risk category as the ones who formed the statistic. It does nothing to convince these new ABS converts to buy more gear or ride more conservatively or take safety classes or anything else that correlates with the statistic-forming ABS buyers, thus, they will not be "37% less likely to die."

I'm not saying that the statistics come from some placebo effect because I, too, believe ABS can and does prevent crashes and shortens stopping distance, but it actually is possible to get similar statistics from completely bogus assumptions. You could take a helmet that's proven superior to the competition and promote it as such with a premium price while simultaneously selling an identical but secretly rebranded one as the cheapest option to unaware buyers who are only buying it because they are legally required to and you will find that the ones spending more on it are less likely to die. It doesn't mean that spending more lowers your chances of dying in an accident. Being safety-minded and taking action to maintain safety even if it costs more money is what lowers your chances more than anything else.

When this is factored in, the cost/benefit ratio does not always make monetary sense even for many safety-conscious riders who may instead choose spend the difference on a better helmet and an MSF course. If you can afford ABS, by all means: GET IT! When I can afford another bike, I intend to.

+1

The EU Safety Nazis really don't get this, they're pushing for mandatory ABS on all bikes, and the Irish Road Safety Authority have been pushing for mandatory full sleeve Hi-vis quoting a similar study from New Zealand. They ignored the main point at the end of the study.

They are running with the opinion that mandatory hi vis will make you 33% safer & a mandatory all white helmet will make you another 18% safer (helmet is already mandatory, but it can be any colour)

Riders wearing high visibility clothing and white helmets are likely to be more safety conscious than other riders.

[backinthesaddleagain]

Originally Posted by lgk

i wonder how it effects the handful of brake while already in the middle of a turn?

I have the CBR600 with ABS and have never tried that. However I do find you can trail brake deep into a corner with lean, and stop pretty easily in the rain. Trying to trail brake to the same spot with the same lean at a track day this year had me locking up the rear on a new R1 demo bike.

I did slide the rear a couple weeks ago in the rain on a twisty RI downhill (as CC calls it the corkscrew). I slid due to lean angle in the wet not braking, but I soon as I stood it up I grabbed alot of brake and no issues.

[RiderOnTheStorm]

Since death is 100% inevitable, anything that edges the odds in my favor is worth it. I'm glad its becoming an option on most bikes, especially lightweights and "beginner" machines.

My only observation is that the full story may not be told here. Obviously track data is hard to deny but insurance data can be inconsistent. Most of the bikes that have had ABS for many years are bigger machines (like Gold Wings or Liter bikes), one a beginner wouldn't necessarily be riding. So I'm guessing these big ABS bikes not only get into fewer accidents not because they're less dangerous, but that the rider is more experienced to be riding that machine. Conversely, the entry level bikes (specially ours) I bet get into accidents all the time. Is that because the 250 is more dangerous than a liter bike? Not necessarily, but the level of rider skills is often reflected by the type of bike ridden. I'd like to see these results after more of the small bikes, supersports and lightweights have ABS.

[Whiskey]

Originally Posted by RiderOnTheStorm

Since death is 100% inevitable, anything that edges the odds in my favor is worth it. I'm glad its becoming an option on most bikes, especially lightweights and "beginner" machines.

My only observation is that the full story may not be told here. Obviously track data is hard to deny but insurance data can be inconsistent. Most of the bikes that have had ABS for many years are bigger machines (like Gold Wings or Liter bikes), one a beginner wouldn't necessarily be riding. So I'm guessing these big ABS bikes not only get into fewer accidents not because they're less dangerous, but that the rider is more experienced to be riding that machine. Conversely, the entry level bikes (specially ours) I bet get into accidents all the time. Is that because the 250 is more dangerous than a liter bike? Not necessarily, but the level of rider skills is often reflected by the type of bike ridden. I'd like to see these results after more of the small bikes, supersports and lightweights have ABS.

Everyone breathes oxygen, everyone dies, does that mean that oxygen is poisonous?

People can twist statistics to say whatever they want, especially when trying to sell safety equipment/have it made mandatory.
I am aware that Oxygen can be poisonous, it's all down to the partial pressure

[Jiggles]

Originally Posted by Whiskey

Everyone breathes oxygen, everyone dies, does that mean that oxygen is poisonous?

People can twist statistics to say whatever they want, especially when trying to sell safety equipment/have it made mandatory.
I am aware that Oxygen can be poisonous, it's all down to the partial pressure

Did you know that statistically, fatter people are taller?

[pdxrider]

When I made my decision to buy a Ninja 300 as my first bike, I passed over a very tempting offer to buy a 2012 Ninja 250 from the dealer and one reason was 300 had the ABS. Although I didn't dig the Lime Green color much (wanted a White) I went ahead to fork extra dollars for the ABS. In my opinion shying away from technology is foolishness. If we become a contrarian in very aspect citing rider skill is important and everything else won't count. We should be driving without airbags, seatbelts and left our motorcycle drum brakes untouched.

Now I don't know if I will engage ABS anytime, but when I am learning new skill and minimize the risk of wheel locking, that is one less thing I need to worry about.

[rojoracing53]

just imagine how much the % would drop If you actually knew how to ride a motorcycle with proficiency.

[pdxrider]

Originally Posted by rojoracing53

just imagine how much the % would drop If you actually knew how to ride a motorcycle with proficiency.

yes that's true. Improve proficiency + use the technology= Win.

[rojoracing53]

I know I won't get many if anyone here to see it my way so I'll state my option for those who don't know. Technology numbs your proficiency making you lazy so when technology isn't there to save your ass you screwed.

I agree that all these recent safety devises coming standard on motorcycle these days are enabling more people to be able to ride without hurting them selves. But it's also my opinion that like most of you will agree that most cagers shouldn't have the right to drive because of many reasons, I think the same thing about motorcyclists to nearly the same %.

If this way of thinking makes me the anti-motorcyclist among motorcyclist then so be it. I still do my best to help those who I deem shouldn't even have a bike to become better riders in hopes that it will save their life some day because I know their going to continue riding regardless of what I think.

[Neenja]

All bikes should have abs, but manufacturers care about money not safety. Either way if you ride right, you're fine.

[pdxrider]

Originally Posted by Neenja

All bikes should have abs, but manufacturers care about money not safety. Either way if you ride right, you're fine.

Kawasaki is gouging people with their pricing model. They are pushing the extra $300 useless stickers for a $500 ABS.

If they made ABS an add-on on all other colors, people would be happy to spend $500 extra and go with their choice of color. Oh well capitalism.

[Motofool]

Originally Posted by rojoracing53

I know I won't get many if anyone here to see it my way so I'll state my option for those who don't know. Technology numbs your proficiency making you lazy so when technology isn't there to save your ass you screwed.

I agree that all these recent safety devises coming standard on motorcycle these days are enabling more people to be able to ride without hurting them selves. But it's also my opinion that like most of you will agree that most cagers shouldn't have the right to drive because of many reasons, I think the same thing about motorcyclists to nearly the same %.

If this way of thinking makes me the anti-motorcyclist among motorcyclist then so be it. I still do my best to help those who I deem shouldn't even have a bike to become better riders in hopes that it will save their life some day because I know their going to continue riding regardless of what I think.

Fully agree !!!

I wonder how last century's motorcyclist managed to survive without traction control, disc brakes, slipping clutch, safety switches, etc.

It may be opportune to explain that ABS doesn't apply the brakes in lieu of the rider, it just releases a locked wheel short after that contact patch starts skidding, ............as many times as such rider keeps clamping that lever/pedal while the bike keeps moving and loosing steering/stability.

Note how the rider in this demonstrative video does not let go the brake lever and keeps the front wheel locked up (vid is biased toward ABS).

Link to original page on YouTube.

Just see what protective technology has done to the skills and brains of the poor cagers !!!
Just alike them, some motorcyclists will be texting and putting make-up on while riding in the near future

However, ABS eliminates rider error while stopping a motorcycle in bad conditions, according to this study:

http://www.msf-usa.org/imsc/proceedi...ngdistance.pdf

Not that it is very applicable to our Ninjettes, but ABS can be fooled by hard packed gravel or dirt roads, as this video shows, creating a hazardous situation.
Due to the principle explained above, ABS will keep on letting off the brakes to prevent a skid that naturally happens when braking on such surfaces.

Text of the original video:
"Here you can see the dramatic difference of emergency stopping on dirt roads or gravel with abs vs no abs.
First WITH ABS, it takes about 100 ft to stop, hopefully in the real event the cliff or the obstacle was not at 80 ft from where you hit the brake. Second video is WITHOUT ABS just HARD on the REAR brake ONLY, you can see the difference, about half the distance, last is HARD on REAR brake and progressive pressure on the front brake, NOW THAT IS DIFFERENT, it cuts the distance by about 80 (YES EIGHTY %).
I hope you find this useful and that using the technique will help you ride safely."

Link to original page on YouTube.

[rojoracing53]

Holy **** what just happened, did motofool and I just agree on something related to riding techniques

actually I think we agree on a lot of stuff but we have different ways of expressing our ideas and support very different ways to achieve such techniques.

But you can be sure that when opinions line up like they did in this thread you better take notes.

I love that video by the way its just to bad there's no sub titles to let you now what they are testing with each run.

[Whiskey]

Originally Posted by rojoracing53

I know I won't get many if anyone here to see it my way so I'll state my option for those who don't know. Technology numbs your proficiency making you lazy so when technology isn't there to save your ass you screwed.

[lgk]

i agree with you both,

technology may mask poor skill, but the only way to improve emergency skills is to practice and gain experience.
then, technology complements skill.

[old3]

You can save ten grand and have 100% chance of not being killed in a motorcycle accident by not riding a bike in the first place.

[ChaoSS]

I don't like ABS on bikes. It's all good for stopping in a straight line, but it can also turn a lowside into a highside.

And yeah, it can make new drivers lazy. Someone who knows how to stop properly an stop more quickly by braking properly instead of using the ABS.

[Daks]

I'll take ABS if it's got it, but right now the extra it costs and how it comes in limited colors isn't worth it to me.

Not really concerned with it. It would be wisest to keep it optional, especially on off-road type bikes.

On average it would likely lower fatalities but it makes its own risks. Kind of like airbags. How many lives have those saved? However, mine would probably kill me because my little legs make it so I have to sit with the wheel in my lap.

[Motofool]

Originally Posted by rojoracing53

Holy **** what just happened, did motofool and I just agree on something related to riding techniques

I must have been drunk if I ever disagreed with any of your posts about riding techniques, Jason.

You have been a passionate racer for many years, what don't you know about the proper way to ride?

As someone has said, racers live more in five minutes at 200 mph than most motorcyclists do in a lifetime of street riding.

My hat has been and is off to you, my friend.

[koma22]

Originally Posted by ChaoSS

I don't like ABS on bikes. It's all good for stopping in a straight line, but it can also turn a lowside into a highside.

And yeah, it can make new drivers lazy. Someone who knows how to stop properly an stop more quickly by braking properly instead of using the ABS.

Hm, never thought about this... could you elaborate?

[ChaoSS]

Originally Posted by koma22

Hm, never thought about this... could you elaborate?

If you lock up your rear wheel in a turn, the result is a lowside. If you then regain traction, it can result in a high side event. The pulsating of the ABS system can cause this to happen.

[rojoracing53]

Originally Posted by Motofool

I must have been drunk if I ever disagreed with any of your posts about riding techniques, Jason.

You have been a passionate racer for many years, what don't you know about the proper way to ride?

As someone has said, racers live more in five minutes at 200 mph than most motorcyclists do in a lifetime of street riding.

My hat has been and is off to you, my friend.

your just the ultimate friendly street rider suggestion box of answers who supports our MSF classes because lets be honest, we have to work with what we have. so thanks for being that guy for everyone.

where as I over here telling everyone to F*** the MSF class and go hop on a dirt bike or race track and just magically figure it out like I did for the most part. I honestly don't see myself as anything special and believe most people can achieve what I have if they want it bad enough. But then I'm reminded that just isn't going to work for most people so I try and sit here quietly and skim through threads looking for something comical and witty to brighten my day

37% huh

random fact: #37 was my first ever racing number back on the YSR50 in 2000

[NathanUc]

Actually owning a bike with and without ABS, here are my thoughts:

The first thing I noticed is that if you are skilled at making very quick stops, you wouldn't even notice if you have abs or not. It's a completely passive system until something goes wrong in the stop. That being said, I feel like it's really helping me push the brakes to their limits in a safe manner. It taught me that I'm able to give the brakes A LOT more pressure before any traction gets lost. What is nice is that while I experiment stopping harder and harder each time, if I do go a bit too far, the ABS would kick it and let me know that I've hit the limit.

Because of how this works, I feel as long as someone wants to improve, having ABS is a much safer way to learn to stop correctly and SHOULDN'T force the rider to rely on the electronics.

As for the post mentioning abs turning a low slide into a high side: First, if the lowside/highside is caused by braking in the first place, the rider is at blame, not the braking technology. Second, it might vary by abs, but it's near IMPOSSIBLE for me to lock up my rear wheel at any speed. The abs kicks in BEFORE the lock. I've tested it on sand, in dirt, and on the wet street. Never was I able to lock the rear no matter how stupid I was on it. It just quickly vibrates letting me know the ABS is on.

If anyone is interested, I can try and mount my camera to the wing arm and demonstrate how this works.

ALSO NOTE: From what I understand, the ABS on my motorcycle is a fairly complicated system that works a bit with the traction control and all of it's various sensors. It's not just looking for a lock up. I'm not an expert and this might just be marketing magic by Kawi :P

[ChaoSS]

I just learned how much traction I've got by locking up my back wheel. In a straight line, it isn't hurting anything.

And yes, if you hit the brakes going through a curve and lock your wheel, it is your fault. I'm just saying that the ABS can make it worse in that situation.

And it doesn't matter if it actually locks up or not, the loss of traction, whether the wheel really comes to a stop or not, and the sudden regaining of it, is what leads to a highside.

[NathanUc]

Originally Posted by ChaoSS

I just learned how much traction I've got by locking up my back wheel. In a straight line, it isn't hurting anything.

And yes, if you hit the brakes going through a curve and lock your wheel, it is your fault. I'm just saying that the ABS can make it worse in that situation.

And it doesn't matter if it actually locks up or not, the loss of traction, whether the wheel really comes to a stop or not, and the sudden regaining of it, is what leads to a highside.

It's hard for me to say as I wouldn't dare test that without my TC on... but I don't think that would happen in a majority of situations. I've lost a bit of traction in corners a few times when I was at Putnam Raceway. It wasn't from the brake, but the brief loss of traction and regaining it didn't cause a high side as I never let the slide get THAT much out of hand. I feel as if using an ABS equiped brake in a large slide could maybe cause a highside but I think any brake at all in a situation like that could.

[NealWright]

Couple comments on ABS ... lot of vehicle DESIGN experience, nothing moto related!

You've got to try very hard to activate the ABS. Like many are commenting, it takes reacting in a way experienced riders shouldn't, and new riders always will.

Unless you're on ice/rain, the ABS will not actually "lock" the wheel. It pulses so quick, that the wheel never actually completely stops. You couldn't even dream of pulsing your brakes as fast as the ABS system.

Most professionals can't even out brake a good ABS system.

Now the hidden truth ... the ABS module actually lowers your braking force. On a properly functioning system, it's completely hidden. On a malfuncting system (ABS activated in a non-demand situation), expect about 50% brake force, no matter how hard you apply.

Thanks, Neal

[koma22]

Originally Posted by ChaoSS

If you lock up your rear wheel in a turn, the result is a lowside. If you then regain traction, it can result in a high side event. The pulsating of the ABS system can cause this to happen.

Ohh. I thought ABS was for the front only... I see now.

[lgk]

Originally Posted by NealWright

Now the hidden truth ... the ABS module actually lowers your braking force. On a properly functioning system, it's completely hidden. On a malfuncting system (ABS activated in a non-demand situation), expect about 50% brake force, no matter how hard you apply.

Thanks, Neal

totally makes sense.
if the brakes release on lockup but the tire still had traction then the brake force is not optimum.