March 10th, 2013, 02:22 PM | #1 |
ninjette.org member
Name: Ibrahim
Location: GTA, Ontario
Join Date: Aug 2012 Motorcycle(s): '01 ZZR 250 Posts: 38
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Zzr 250 turbo- advice
Hello all,
I was wondering if anybody could advise me of a small turbo kit that I would be able to install on my zzr250. I love my bike, the size and weight are perfect for me. I just wish it had a bit more power for highway commuting. I am thinking about installing a small turbocharger which would boost it up to approximate 50hp. Ive already installed a full muzzy, stage 3 114 jets, and k&n pods. I plan to start the project in 2014 but want to begin budgeting for it from now. I don't want to go the 600 route since, like i said, I like te size/ weight/ and insurance costs of my bike. Any constructive advice would be appreciated. Sincerely, Ibrahim |
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March 10th, 2013, 02:27 PM | #2 | |
Bass Master General
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It's VERY ambitious to untake these mods, but assuming you have the capital to spend and the time to take, you'll need to upgrade to EFI using an ecotrons kit, then you'll need to wait for the chappy on here from india to release his turbo kit, you'll want to get a two to one header and a decent can, and a decent air filter and a few hours on a dyno to get it all sorted. I think 40 / 45 hp would be ambitious. And it'll run you about $3000 |
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March 12th, 2013, 11:49 PM | #3 |
ninjette.org sage
Name: Ms.T, Queen of the Night
Location: Ontario, Canada
Join Date: Jun 2011 Motorcycle(s): 2011 Ninja 250 Posts: 938
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Hmm, that's what I was looking for but mine has carbs :-(
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March 13th, 2013, 01:40 PM | #4 |
ninjette.org member
Name: Zach
Location: Allentown PA
Join Date: May 2011 Motorcycle(s): 99 250, 06 Speed Triple, 2009 husky 510SMR Posts: 36
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I've seen it done, well... attempted a few times. it can work... for a little at least. you'll need lower compression(head gaskets/dished pistons), stronger clutch (springs and plates), stronger internals (as in crank and rods = big $$$). and that's just preparing the engine for boost.
you can definitely turbo charge carbs. people turbo carbs all the time... on other bikes. it requires equalizing the pressure in the carb bowl with the boost being pumped through the carb. is it possible with these carbs? that i don't know. EFI could make you're life easier, but that's if you already know how to program a fuel system that runs boost... i have only read and seen 2 ninja 250 turbos done to completion and running. one was done in some eastern country where it kinda makes sense as larger cc's cost very large $$'s there. i don't know what became of this bike, but it looked like they invested some real money into it so its possible it ran for a month or two lol. The other, done in the US was on the cheap, and it ran slipping the clutch around 8k rpm and got to like 40ish hp with said clutch. after a few good rides in the higher rpms the motor blew itself apart. you will be riding a bomb. not saying it cant be done, it has been done, but the high chance of failure EVEN IF its done right is a big gamble. And doing it right in this case means starting with the engine cases and working from there essentially. actually you'll want stronger head bolts for those too. a "turbo kit" producing anything more than around 5-8 hp would require more than just bolt-ons.
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March 13th, 2013, 01:46 PM | #5 | |
Jigglin' your Jiglets
Name: Sean
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March 13th, 2013, 01:51 PM | #6 |
Bass Master General
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That they do! Good thinking batman!
http://www.ecotrons.com/Small_Engine...bocharger.html http://www.ecotrons.com/Small_Engine...o_PNP_kit.html |
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March 13th, 2013, 01:53 PM | #7 |
ninjette.org member
Name: Zach
Location: Allentown PA
Join Date: May 2011 Motorcycle(s): 99 250, 06 Speed Triple, 2009 husky 510SMR Posts: 36
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thats interesting! well i stand corrected on the fuel part. according to ecotronics it may be easy after all. i wonder how much you would get out of it. nice and small so it'll spool pretty quickly. i just really don't know how comfortable id feel about stepping over a stock motor/boosted 250.
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Muzzy, Pods, 112 mains w/ 2 washers, fender delete, polished rims/tripple tree, WC clip-ons, adjustable levers, soupy's dogbones |
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March 13th, 2013, 01:54 PM | #8 |
Bass Master General
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It's also worth mentioning that a turbo for an engine that already performs poorly at low rpm you will actually see LESS power at lower RPM's
My guess would be between 1k and 6k you'll see a lot less power, you could reduce the boost and see more power at lower RPM's but ultimately you'll get less HP. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turbocharger#Turbo_lag |
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March 13th, 2013, 02:05 PM | #9 |
Bass Master General
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Having spent the last ten minutes researching forced induction for small engines and it seems you can take a "smog pump" which is a belt driven air pump installed in cars to blow air into the exhaust to burn off un-burnt fuel, apparently standard on cars in the USA for over twenty years? You hook this up via belt drive and it's essentially a supercharger.
I am a sceptic but it looks promising. |
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March 14th, 2013, 10:30 AM | #10 |
ninjette.org member
Name: Ibrahim
Location: GTA, Ontario
Join Date: Aug 2012 Motorcycle(s): '01 ZZR 250 Posts: 38
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Thank you all for your informative replies. I definitely don't want to be riding a time bomb so maybe a turbo will not be the wisest choice for an everyday commuter.
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March 19th, 2013, 10:55 AM | #11 |
ninjette.org member
Name: Matt
Location: Denver
Join Date: Dec 2012 Motorcycle(s): '99 Ninja 250 (training wheels are off!!) Posts: 11
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you don't necessarily have to upgrade the internals... there's a great book called "Maximum Boost" by Corky Bell. He shows that the stress created on the connecting rods (the typical weak link) DOUBLES when adding 1000rpm, but boost in the 6 to 7psi adds less than 50% more stress. So what he is basically saying is that moving the redline down 500 to 1000rpm will take care of the internal stress.
You will need to lower the compression because these bikes are like 13:1. Search youtube, there are some videos from Malaysia (I think) where they put a kit on a newgen and got something like 80hp out of it. |
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March 19th, 2013, 11:59 AM | #12 | |
Doh!
Name: Matt
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March 19th, 2013, 12:10 PM | #13 |
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Ninja 500?
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March 19th, 2013, 12:12 PM | #14 | |
Bass Master General
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Sure it robs a little energy off the engine to power the compressor, it's less than the power gained by the extra fuel and air your engine wil bel forced. |
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March 19th, 2013, 12:19 PM | #15 |
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March 19th, 2013, 12:50 PM | #16 | |
Doh!
Name: Matt
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recycled smog superchargers.. |
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March 19th, 2013, 12:52 PM | #17 |
ninjette.org member
Name: Matt
Location: Denver
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aeroblade...
turbos cause MAJOR backpressure to the exhaust, so much so that the Dodge Neon SRT4 didn't actually have a muffler!! This is a HUGE drain on the engine, BUT it works because of the "net gain". A water pump eats energy too, but allows the engine to run hotter therefore making more power than what you could do with an aircooled engine. the power increase comes from having more air (and fuel) forced into the cylinder... so for a given setup, let's say a 30hp 250cc motorcycle engine, for every 1psi of boost you add, you will get 30hp * 1psi/14.7 more power... about a 7% gain - roughly 2hp. So as long as the energy to make that power is less than the hp gain, you win!! so if you wanted to get to 50hp from a 30hp engine, you would need right about 9.8psi of boost... the downside is heat, somewhere in the 5 to 6psi range you start having intake temps hitting the 200deg mark, this will cause detonation, so you have to cool it - this is where intercooling comes into play. So a very complex system, a slight decrease in MPG, and a good sum of $$$... or you can go pick up a 500!! |
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March 19th, 2013, 01:03 PM | #18 |
Bass Master General
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The back pressure on the exhaust is proportional to the "size" of the turbo charger, as a rule of thumb the smaller the turbo the less back pressure the lower the boost at a lower rpm.
The larger the turbo the bigger the boost the greater the lag the more back pressure at lower rpm and higer power at greater rpm. You can get sequential turbos that use the smaller one for lower boost and the larger kicks in at the top end, but that's going to be too large of a setup for a ninja I fear. A supercharger will give a linear boost with a cleaner, friendlier delivery. |
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March 19th, 2013, 01:07 PM | #19 | |
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Quote:
People have used smog pumps to super charge scooters for years, It works great from what I hear.
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March 19th, 2013, 01:40 PM | #20 | ||
Doh!
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March 19th, 2013, 01:45 PM | #21 |
Bass Master General
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A turbo / supercharger combo sounds nice, but their is a good reason they aren't as popular!
Like Racer x said, hooking up a blower to your engine would be the challange. A small turbo like some indian chap that posts here is developing would be the easiest / cheapest way. |
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March 19th, 2013, 01:50 PM | #22 | |
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March 19th, 2013, 02:24 PM | #24 |
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Given the choice, and I have one. I would go for the turbo. The belt, If you can make an out drive for it. Will cause parasitic drag. That will waste horse power. With the turbo there is no such waiste. Back pressure is not an issue. We are dealing with a 30 hp engine. Loosing 20% to the pump is tough to make up.
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