Difficulty fitting new header - leak

[headshrink]

*sigh*

I know this should be easy, but I am very frustrated. Last night I installed my new Area Q, which was a PITA to get swing-arm clearance, and sure enough.... I imediately found an exahust leak where the header bolts onto the engine. I can feel the pulsations on my finger. I believe there is a gap between the flange and engine (almost expected a leak), but was haveing significant difficulty getting it to mate. Normal? Advise for fix, or special tricks?

[dubojr1]

Originally Posted by headshrink

*sigh*

I know this should be easy, but I am very frustrated. Last night I installed my new Area Q, which was a PITA to get swing-arm clearance, and sure enough.... I imediately found an exahust leak where the header bolts onto the engine. I can feel the pulsations on my finger. I believe there is a gap between the flange and engine (almost expected a leak), but was haveing significant difficulty getting it to mate. Normal? Advise for fix, or special tricks?

Do you mean Area P? Did you reuse the stock header gaskets?

[kkim]

did you use new exhaust gaskets? did you loosely fit and align everything first, then tighten from front to rear?

[headshrink]

Yes, Area P 18" with OEM gaskets.
They where pretty tight on the OEM pipe, so I coaxed them off CAREFULLY with a small flathead driver. One of them had a little malformation, but I wasn't positive it was beyond usefulness. I realize I MAY be more hopeful that is could still used than reality, but that is what I had on hand. I used my torque wrench (105 in-Lbs).

Although I didn't use it, I do have some copper gasket sealant (spray can) from an auto project a few years ago. I question it's usefulness, but am mentioning it so you know it is on hand if it helps.

Yes, I did try to align everything, THEN tighten from the front. The can wanted to touch the swing-arm toward the back, so that was a bit difficult.

Just for S&G, I just pulled the can off, loosened the header, wobbled it to try to re-seat it, tightened it, and fired it up for a few seconds (neighbors probably thought I brought home a Harley).... leak still present, but must be a LITTLE smaller because I felt like I could pinpoint it in a smaller area. All the leak checks thus far have been with my finger. If I get it sealed up enough to satisfy my finger, I'll use a hose to my ear (that is how I found a leak when I had a car).

Thank you for your fast replys... hopefully it will be solved by the time I have to go to work later this evening.

EDIT: Would a place like Autozone cary a gasket that would work? They are 3 min. away, the nearest dealer is almost 45min.

[kkim]

buy NEW gaskets if they are leaking. they are crushable, one time use gaskets. If you're lucky you can reuse them. Sounds like you weren't lucky. Buy new ones as a leak in that area is bad for your engine.

[headshrink]

Originally Posted by kkim

buy NEW gaskets if they are leaking. they are crushable, one time use gaskets. If you're lucky you can reuse them. Sounds like you weren't lucky. Buy new ones as a leak in that area is bad for your engine.

Would buying some RTV Copper Gasket maker be acceptable? I would hate to loose my bike for a couple days if I don't have to....

[kkim]

my take- you already know you have a leak... why try to half ass a fix? fix it for good. a leak in that area can be a source of burned exhaust valves and also possibly backfiring that will drive you nuts.

you could possibly fix it with the RTV, but unless you HAVE to, why risk it?

[headshrink]

Backordered 2 weeks!

Think that would be a good reason to go RTV?

[dubojr1]

Originally Posted by kkim

my take- you already know you have a leak... why try to half ass a fix? fix it for good. a leak in that area can be a source of burned exhaust valves and also possibly backfiring that will drive you nuts.

you could possibly fix it with the RTV, but unless you HAVE to, why risk it?

I agree, no sense in risking it. I'd also call the dealer prior to just popping in to make sure they have them. GL!

[dubojr1]

Originally Posted by headshrink

Backordered 2 weeks!

Think that would be a good reason to go RTV?

option B...

http://www.cheapcycleparts.com/produ...t-exhaust-pipe

[headshrink]

called everyone around town... no one has it, and it is backorder online.

[dubojr1]

Originally Posted by headshrink

called everyone around town... no one has it, and it is backorder online.

option c...

Disassemble and inspect. Double check everything to make sure it seated good. See if the gasket has indications of a leak on it. Go from there.

[headshrink]

Originally Posted by dubojr1

option B...

http://www.cheapcycleparts.com/produ...t-exhaust-pipe

CCP doesn't list availability, and in the past has been known to tell you things are on backorder after you purchase..... (my experience and others)

BikeBandit at least tells you the availability of parts, but it is listed at over 2 weeks.

No dealer around town has it... so I question if CCP has it at all either.

[kkim]

Originally Posted by headshrink

Backordered 2 weeks!

Think that would be a good reason to go RTV?

You know the consequences. You make that call.

Before I use the RTV, I'd try removing the header, flipping the gaskets around and see if it seals that way. That RTV is only good to 700*F. I have no idea how hot it gets in the region, but I've seen exhaust paint rated to 1200* fail, so I have doubts the RTV would hold up in the long run.

Perhaps flip the gaskets around and goop it up with the RTV when you reassemble? you might get lucky this time.

call CCP and ask them directly.

[HKr1]

Originally Posted by dubojr1

option c...

Disassemble and inspect. Double check everything to make sure it seated good. See if the gasket has indications of a leak on it. Go from there.

Thats what I would do Make sure everything is clean and flat.

[headshrink]

I tried flipping the gaskets, but unfortunately I didn't get lucky.

Called CCP, and they SAID they had it (although they don't keep stock), but I honestly question that. I ordered anyway, since I'll need them and paid the $18 expedited shipping.... which he said is still 4-5 days (assuming they can get it from the supplier). Ground shipping was half the cost, but I risk twice the wait.

I then put the stock pipe back on, and although I haven't checked with a tube yet, I don't feel the pulse on my fingers. I interpret this as slight differences between the mating surfaces of OEM and aftermarket.

Well, at least it is looking like I will have transportation....

[johnjohn]

Maybe I missed it, but did you check to see if the new header flange is flat and true? I have had countless pipes where I have had to file the flange to get a good mating surface. Welding does some strange things to metal.

[headshrink]

Originally Posted by johnjohn

Maybe I missed it, but did you check to see if the new header flange is flat and true? I have had countless pipes where I have had to file the flange to get a good mating surface. Welding does some strange things to metal.

I really didn't.... didn't know I had to. But I thought I noticed the flange may have been a LITTLE pulled in at the ends.

[kkim]

ask the PO if they had any leak problems.

[greg737]

Sorry to hear you've had difficulty with your Area P.

I bought and installed my Area P about a year ago. I got the "Long Quiet" Stainless Steel version of the can (which I think they may have discontinued). I also ordered new gaskets from Ron Ayers. The install was easy, even fun. No problems with alignment or anything.

No leaks. Love the exhaust.

[headshrink]

PO never installed it... it was brand spanking new.

I noticed the OEM was harder than the AreaP to get over the studs and butted up against the engine. I think the pipes that protrude are ever so slightly narrower on the AreaP.... which would also make a leak easier.

Would a picture of the flanges be helpful to discern if it is an appropriate matting surface? The curve is so subtle.

[kkim]

I wouldn't worry about the flanges being off at this point. Even if they are, what can you do about it before the new gaskets come in? Stop worrying about a problem that may not exist until you know for sure the sealing isn't due to an installation error. Concentrate on installing the header correctly with new gaskets.

[headshrink]

Do I hear the voice of reason calling?

[kkim]

if it makes you feel any better, go ahead and post up some pics of the flanges that you think might be off. johnjohn can give you his opinion on whether they are off enough to make a difference.

I've never heard of anyone having a problem with flanges on their AP exhaust, but with your luck, you could be the first.

[headshrink]

Here is a collection of pics from my iphone. It is a difficult shot, as I was trying to get a straight-on angle with no illusions of a bend that isn't there. You will also see a shot with a metal ruler... this was difficult to lay across the flange, due to the pipe's interference, but I think it does show a gap from a slight bend. What do you all think?

[cbowman78]

If it leaks with new gaskets, I would likely be inclined to double up the crush gaskets (If it is not a matter of incorrect installation, which it sounds like it is not). I work at a Toyota/Lexus dealer and we have had to double up on crush gaskets in some cases.

I am actually having a similar issue with a small air pulsation coming from the right side of the engine (flange/cylinder head).

I am waiting for my gaskets to come in as I tried to reuse the existing ones.

BTW, has anyone ever found any crush gaskets other than the Kawasaki ones that work?

[johnjohn]

Shoddy welding practice but the new gasket may work for you! Use a new exhaust gasket and the old one stacked with a good smear of anti-seize between them. It will smoke a bit till the oil burns off then the graphite will be all thats left between them. Careful on the torque you put on the studs.

[kbryant]

Headshrink, The flanges do look to have more bend in them than normal. This is usually caused from tightening down too tightly with a crushed/used set of gaskets. The oem gaskets are very thin and do not normally work very well when trying to re-use them. A new set of gaskets should address this and be fine.

If you do try and reuse the "used" gaskets, apply some high temp silicone to them (red or copper is best). After tightening, leave it dry overnight before starting.

The flanges are made from highly annealed stainless steel material and are specifically designed to "give/bend" a little because of the external port gasket design on the 250r cylinder head (so it does not put too much pressure on the stud/nut from over tightening). But they can also be bent back if necessary by simply putting them in a vise.

Regardless if you bought it new or used, if you need further assistance please feel free to contact us directly and we'll be happy to help you.

[kkim]

Ah... straight from the source. Doesn't get any better than this.

Mahalo, Kerry, for your input.

[headshrink]

Thank you everyone. I will take it all as encouragement.

Kerry - Thanks for chiming in... I didn't realize the connection before.

I'll post an update when appropriate.

[headshrink]

Update:

The new exhaust crush-gaskets arrived, and when I saw how thick they are new, I knew there was hope I would get this thing sealed. Again, I installed the full system, following the install instructions to the letter (including my trusty torque wrench).

When I fired it up, it passed the initial "finger test." I didn't feel the pulsating air I had before. There is still quite a gap between the middle of the flange and engine, so I am thinking I should do a soapy water test too.... but I remain hopeful.

After the initial leak test, I had some condensation leak out of the joint between the can, and header pipe. Any recommendations on torque for the T clamp?

Here are a couple pics of the new gaskets, and the header installed. I didn't get as many angles as I wanted.... got hungry.

[demp]

hmm so high temp silicone to fix an exhaust leak, good to know, the kz1000 will be happy to know this

[cbowman78]

I dont think Hi-temp silicone would last at the cylinder head/header pipe location. That type of silicone is only good to 700F. It is going to be a fair bit hotter at that location.

Headshrink: Glad to hear that the gaskets worked out for you. I will actually be running to Kawasaki today to pick up my new gaskets in hope for the same type of success!!

[demp]

hmmm, well it can't hurt to try it

[cbowman78]

Like mentioned above, use the copper hi temp silicone. It is the best you can get!

[rockNroll]

Originally Posted by headshrink

Update:
After the initial leak test, I had some condensation leak out of the joint between the can, and header pipe. Any recommendations on torque for the T clamp?

Clamped connections usually leak at first. Carbon will build up and seal the connection. Seeing the drip is normal so don't worry about it

[headshrink]

I think I'm getting there, but am now working out some clearance issues. I know things are supposed to be tight (close), and I gave myself as much clearance as I could between the can and swing-arm, but it is making contact when the suspension is compressed - you can see in the picture that some of the rubber on the strap was damaged from making contact. Also, not shown in picture, the spring that wraps around the brake line is making scuff marks on the can. I have 2 thick washers installed between the foot peg bracket and AreaP strap to move it out a little, but it doesn't seem to be enough. I have tried repositioning it several times, but can't seem to get enough clearance without twisting it to a ridiculous 45 degree angle.... which just looks bad.

You will notice in the very last picture of the collage below, there is more clearance between the pipe and fairing bracket than in the pics KKim supplied in his original DIY. This suggests to me that the pipe is closer to the swing arm than his is. Thinking it may be related to how the flanges are seated against the engine, I did a visual check.... all four ends/tips of the flanges are making contact with the engine case, so I seem to have no "wiggle room" left. I am assuming this is likely an effect from the flanges being bent, which is proving to be a pain. I don't know why that is, I just know I have never put a single in-Lb over 105 on them, and when I received it, it was CLEAN with no scratches or tool marks. Thankfully the original leak seems resolved, I'm hoping the alignment will be solved as easily.

It wouldn't bother me too much if I knew it wouldn't continue to be damaged if I left it, but I don't think it would be a good idea to leave that to chance, especially since the contact has torn the rubber strap. It would also be an expensive and needless mistake.

I was wondering if the AP exhaust bracket would hold the can out (away from swing arm) a smidgen further than the stock bracket???

[johnjohn]

Got a side shot. Is it possible you have band reversed. turned the other way would put the can out a little further to clear your other bits that are getting rubbed.

[headshrink]

Originally Posted by johnjohn

Got a side shot. Is it possible you have band reversed. turned the other way would put the can out a little further to clear your other bits that are getting rubbed.

I was pretty intentional about flipping it to the side that would give the best clearance.

[kkim]

yup, reverse the rubber mounting band.

loosen up the can/header, position can with mounting band reversed, align things, then tighten fasteners front to back.