Take the Guessing out of Tuning

[Bradford]

This video shows the use of a normal Wideband Air/Fuel ratio guage just like in a car to help tune your carbs.

For around $250 you get everything you need to do this.

Heres the Video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9SFPvULm8k4


AEM Wideband:
(use coupon code "dirtbike" to get the gauge pod for free)
http://www.aemonly.com/wideband-air-...gauge-250.html

[HKr1]

Some numbers for ya:

Air/Fuel Ratio Limits
6.0:1 Rich run limit
9.0:1 Low power, black smoke
11.5:1 Rich best torque at WOT
12.5:1 Safe best power at WOT
13.2:1 Lean best torque at WOT
14.7:1 Chemically ideal
15.5:1 Lean light load, part throttle
16.2:1 Best economy, part throttle
18-22:1 Lean run limit

[2WheelGuy]

Very cool. I looked at Wideband kits last year but they were out of my budget. At that price I may invest in this one.

[sharky nrk]

i have one - i suppose if you got a bung welded on the exhaust it could be used for the same purposes - i would really like a logger that could be carried on the bike and downloaded when i got home.

[adouglas]

Looks like you have to drill the exhaust and weld the bung in to use this at all, which means a permanent change to the bike (unless you go buy a spare header just for the purpose). Is that right or am I missing something?

I really don't see the point of permanently installing this thing. Once you're tuned you're done.

[Racer x]

Innovative makes a nice wide band gauge with data logging.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Innov...Q5fAccessories

When you want to install an A/F gauge you will have to block off the clean air system. It puts air into the exhaust to help the cat burn any fuel the engine did not burn. If you have an open header you can totally remove the stuff on top the valve cover.

It will also stop the backfiring when you down shift.

[2WheelGuy]

I did a little research on the AEM vs. Innovate topic. After I got through all the typical brain dead "Mine is better than yours" posts I came to the conclusion that both are good units. A third option the Prosport is generally disliked.

The Innovate costs a little more.
The Innovate is better at data logging.
The Innovate reads a slightly broader range of A/F ratios.
The AEM doesn't need to be recalibrated.
The AEM comes with interchangable bezels, faces.

If I decide to buy one it would be the AEM because of the lower price since I won't be using the data logging software. Also because of the many complaints of the Innovate loosing calibration. I have no first hand experience, this is just what I've gleaned from my Internet research.

[Racer x]

I used a 49 dollar auto meter gauge for two years without any real problems.

Before I figured out the clean air thing .I thought it was working backward. Once I blocked off the top of the valve cover it would read fine . I could see the difference between jet sizes and see it while riding.
This is the A/F gauge . I guess The engine is cold or the choke is on.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=33L1972dK4A

[randomwalk101]

for about $218 shipped straight from AEM or a few bucks cheaper going Ebay route....anyone venture to pick one up to play with it?

[2WheelGuy]

Originally Posted by adouglas

Looks like you have to drill the exhaust and weld the bung in to use this at all, which means a permanent change to the bike (unless you go buy a spare header just for the purpose). Is that right or am I missing something?

I really don't see the point of permanently installing this thing. Once you're tuned you're done.

Just put a plug in the bung. You're right, no real reason to leave it attached once the jetting is set.

[2WheelGuy]

I found a AEM 30-4100 Wideband Gauge EUGO 6 in 1 Controller on Ebay for $182.00 shipped so I bit the bullet and bought one. I also bought a pair of bung plugs (yes I said bung plugs) for $7.00 and a gauge pod for another $7. So I got the whole setup for less than 200 bucks. My last expense will be to have my local muffler shop weld the o2 bung into my exhaust.

[ninja250]

Sweeeet. Pics would be killer when you're rigged up.
I wouldn't mind doing my own tuning and knowing or at least thinking it went right.

[Racer x]

Originally Posted by 2WheelGuy

I found a AEM 30-4100 Wideband Gauge EUGO 6 in 1 Controller on Ebay for $182.00 shipped so I bit the bullet and bought one. I also bought a pair of bung plugs (yes I said bung plugs) for $7.00 and a gauge pod for another $7. So I got the whole setup for less than 200 bucks. My last expense will be to have my local muffler shop weld the o2 bung into my exhaust.

HeHe he said bung plug.He he
Post up some photos when you get it done.

[greg737]

Here's what the bung and sensor installation looks like on my 2005 EX-250. It occupies the little bit of space between back end of the engine's oil pan and the suspension linkage.














I've got in installed on an Area P with a long-quiet stainless steel can.






I've got the Air/Fuel ratio meter mounted deep inside the front fairing. It's on a bracket that I attached to the inside of the front turn signal bolt. This puts it in a position that's easy to read while riding (even in bright sunlight because it's almost always shaded from direct sunlight). You can see that I've got my digital clock mounted on the other turn signal bolt.

[Zim]

Originally Posted by adouglas

Looks like you have to drill the exhaust and weld the bung in to use this at all, which means a permanent change to the bike (unless you go buy a spare header just for the purpose). Is that right or am I missing something?

I really don't see the point of permanently installing this thing. Once you're tuned you're done.

Knowing you're leaning out before the motor seizes is worth the $200 right there. It's useful as the seasons change, too and if you're into touring you can fine tune for altitude changes. Here in California, gasoline changes to a different formula in the winter for pollution control so that can affect A/F because of the additives. Plus there's the pleasure of seeing what your bike is doing in real time. Hell of a lot easier than reading plugs, IMO.

If you're just riding around, it's useless but if you have $200 to throw around, sure, go for it.

[ninja250]

I have to pull my plugs soon and check them out from my mods.
Hopefully I can make some sense of that. Never been very good at tuning anything by ear. If my plugs are lookin' ugly I might spring for hooking up one of these systems.
Thanks for posting your pics Greg, Those gauge hiding spots sound like a good idea. Keep people from messing with them too. Also, pretty clean install of your bung hole. lol

[randomwalk101]

Give us a write up & review whenever you got one

[Roostre]

This is on my wish list now! I have enough bikes/old cars that would justify the purchase easily; especially considering I live at 5000 ft and NOTHING is ever jetted right for here.

I'm really curious how well it would work on a 2-stroke dirt bike that gives me fits with the jetting. I race it in a local desert/ hare scramble series and long blasts at wide open throttle make me nervous.


On the Ninjette 250 would the stock exhaust be problematic due to the crossover pipe??

[dubojr1]

I really like the idea of doing this. I wonder if Kerry at Area P could make it an option to add the bung to the header pipe to maintain Area P quality.

[g21-30]

Originally Posted by Bradford

This video shows the use of a normal Wideband Air/Fuel ratio guage just like in a car to help tune your carbs.

For around $250 you get everything you need to do this.

AEM Wideband:
(use coupon code "dirtbike" to get the gauge pod for free)
http://www.aemonly.com/wideband-air-...gauge-250.html

Price reduced to $199.80!!! Holy Batman!

[TygaUSA.com]

Thats a really good price for a wide band...I think my brother bought a Lambda pro wide band for tuning Mustangs and it was a few thousand $'s!!

Tyga offers exhausts with the bung already in place (comes with plug) as they can be used for the carb'd and FI versions!

[dubojr1]

Alright guys... Here's a thought for those of us that have the Area P exhaust. I'm looking for design ideas to submit to Kerry at Area P for fabrication. I was really hoping to come up with something for both permanent and temporary use depending how each of us would like our install. For now I'm thinking for my bike I'd like it to be temporary. My design thought is develop an adapter to install between the header pipe and the muffler. It's a pretty simple idea and a breeze to fabricate and install. The muffler clamp that came with our exhaust kits could be utilized but one additional clamp would be needed. The adapter would have to be as compact in length as possible due to lack of slide space remaining on the muffler support thats on the passenger peg. In other words we don't have a lot of room to slide the muffler out to insert the adapter. Any comments or suggestions are welcomed and encouraged.

[adouglas]

Originally Posted by dubojr1

Any comments or suggestions are welcomed and encouraged.

Excellent idea! I'd be all over that.

[BIGT94z]

Originally Posted by Racer x

I used a 49 dollar auto meter gauge for two years without any real problems.

Before I figured out the clean air thing .I thought it was working backward. Once I blocked off the top of the valve cover it would read fine . I could see the difference between jet sizes and see it while riding.
This is the A/F gauge . I guess The engine is cold or the choke is on.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=33L1972dK4A

that's a narrow band gauge your running not a wideband

[greg737]

Dubojr1,

Here's a small consideration that I want to bring to your attention:

Your mock-up picture shows the wideband oxygen sensor installed on the temporary pipe with a standard depth weld-on bung.

During my build I discovered that I needed to use an "extended length" bung because of the narrow (when compared to an average car's exhaust) diameter of the Area P EX-250 exhaust. If I'd used a standard depth bung the oxygen sensor would have protruded way too far into the relatively narrow exhaust pipe.

I didn't do the math to figure out what percent of the Area P exhaust tube would be blocked by the oxygen sensor if I'd used a standard depth bung, but when I was preparing to weld it I mocked up with the standard length bung and the sensor really filled the tube and just looked wrong. It looked like the oxygen sensor would have had a restricting effect on the exhaust gas flow (possibly even to the point of negating the advantage of installing the Area P in the first place).

With the extended length bung only the nose of the sensor peeks out into the flow of gases in the Area P exhaust tube. As far as I can tell, this setup works perfectly. It updates/varies quickly with throttle changes just like it's supposed to do.

Food for thought.

[Racer x]

I have to go all the way . I am getting a full data recorder

I cant ever remember to look at the AF gauge . This will record and has wheel speed intake temp rpm and throttle position.
the dyno cost 150 a day and this will be better at the track for on the spot tuning

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Innov...#ht_3550wt_899

[dubojr1]

Originally Posted by greg737

Dubojr1,

Here's a small consideration that I want to bring to your attention:

Your mock-up picture shows the wideband oxygen sensor installed on the temporary pipe with a standard depth weld-on bung.

During my build I discovered that I needed to use an "extended length" bung because of the narrow (when compared to an average car's exhaust) diameter of the Area P EX-250 exhaust. If I'd used a standard depth bung the oxygen sensor would have protruded way too far into the relatively narrow exhaust pipe.

I didn't do the math to figure out what percent of the Area P exhaust tube would be blocked by the oxygen sensor if I'd used a standard depth bung, but when I was preparing to weld it I mocked up with the standard length bung and the sensor really filled the tube and just looked wrong. It looked like the oxygen sensor would have had a restricting effect on the exhaust gas flow (possibly even to the point of negating the advantage of installing the Area P in the first place).

With the extended length bung only the nose of the sensor peeks out into the flow of gases in the Area P exhaust tube. As far as I can tell, this setup works perfectly. It updates/varies quickly with throttle changes just like it's supposed to do.

Food for thought.

Thanks for the information. Restriction was a concern of mine. I'll keep this mind when I forward my request to Kerry. I was kinda hoping he would find this thread and it would also stimulate his ideas.

I'm now considering doing KOSO gauges and wondering if I could intergrate the A/F meter into the dash. I know there is a member here who has but I'm wondering how difficult it was and do I really trust any local companies to weld that bung onto my new AP exhaust.

I haven't decided what I want to do yet....

[Guinss]

Great idea this. Currently working on setting up my own A/F Gauge.
Just thought i'd tell. This will require a Kleen Air System Removal. Also on FI bikes.
http://www.ninjette.org/forums/showthread.php?t=9948

I'm working on setting up an A/F Gauge as we speak, and i tested the Oxygen Sensor. It read 19-20 and went out of the measuring area. Then i held my hand over the Kleen Air System and it then read 11-12 at idle. So i'm gonna remove it.

[dubojr1]

Originally Posted by Guinss

Great idea this. Currently working on setting up my own A/F Gauge.
Just thought i'd tell. This will require a Kleen Air System Removal. Also on FI bikes.
http://www.ninjette.org/forums/showthread.php?t=9948

I'm working on setting up an A/F Gauge as we speak, and i tested the Oxygen Sensor. It read 19-20 and went out of the measuring area. Then i held my hand over the Kleen Air System and it then read 11-12 at idle. So i'm gonna remove it.

Yeah it is my understanding that it must be removed for accurate readings. Fortunately I have already done that with my air box delete.

[Guinss]

Installed mine today. As i have an FI Bike, there is already an Oxygen sensor on the exhaust. At the moment im using an O2 eliminator because of the PowerCommander unit, so my Oxygen sensor was not hooked up to anything.

Had my bike running with the PowerCommander connected to my computer, and i could adjust the idle mix from an a/f of 10 to about 12-13. Could clearly hear the idle going up and down as i tried different fuel values. It was quite a large difference in a/f ratio just with a few % in fuel adjustments at the time.

Had to remove the Kleen Air System, as mentioned before. And i stole electricity from the plate light, which im not using for anything. There is 4 connections on the O2 sensor. 2 grounds(1 for signal, 1 for heater), 1 power-wire(12V for the heater) and 1 signalwire(which you connect to your Meter/Gauge).

Found out my bike was running abit rich. Have adjusted a wide range down with 1-2-3%. It is gonna take alot of driving to get it all adjusted perfect. But that's not bad is it.

Link to original page on YouTube.

Link to original page on YouTube.

My Gauge shows Volt from the powersource for the first 30 seconds after startup(1st video), then it shows a/f(2nd video). Note that it goes to 19(off scale), as you go off the throttle.

[dubojr1]

Originally Posted by Guinss

Installed mine today. As i have a FI Bike, there is already an Oxygen sensor on the exhaust. At the moment im using an O2 eliminator because of the PowerCommander unit, so my Oxygen sensor was not hooked up to anything.

Had my bike running with the PowerCommander connected to my computer, and i could adjust the idle mix from an a/f of 10 to about 12-13. Could clearly hear the idle going up and down as i tried different fuel values. It was quite a large difference in a/f ratio just with a few % in fuel adjustments at the time.

Had to remove the Kleen Air System, as mentioned before. And i stole electricity from the plate light, which im not using for anything. There is 4 connections on the O2 sensor. 2 grounds(1 for signal, 1 for heater), 1 power-wire(12V for the heater) and 1 signalwire(which you connect to your Meter/Gauge).

Found out my bike was running abit rich. Have adjusted a wide range down with 1-2-3%. It is gonna take alot of driving to get it all adjusted perfect. But that's not bad is it.

Wow... I'm such a techy guy and would love the fuel injection. Oh well, loving my carbs for now. I can drag out the 1000RR if I want some fuel injection.

Nice setup though!

[Guinss]

Wow, this is great fun! Have been out for many runs now, adjusting a bit after every ride. I've gone down on the fuel with 6-15% over a wide range, except for a small lean area(4-6000 rpm). WOT @ high rpms/speeds the a/f was about 10, now 11-11,5. Doing small adjustments every time. There is so small margins for hitting exactly 12,5-14, the good area. If you adjust too much, you can go directly from 10 to 18.

The meter is a bit more stable than what the video shows, where the bike was revving at a standstill. And it's reacting very quick to throttle changes and such. Easy to read, hard to remember all the stuff until i get back home though. I'm thinking to maybe videotape my runs, as a way to record the data. But by just remembering stuff from the runs, have already smoothened out my fuel map by quite a bit. Too late at night to keep driving now, unfortunately.

You guys gonna love this, when you get your orders from Ebay.

[dubojr1]

Originally Posted by Guinss

Wow, this is great fun! Have been out for many runs now, adjusting a bit after every ride. I've gone down on the fuel with 6-15% over a wide range, except for a small lean area(4-6000 rpm). WOT @ high rpms/speeds the a/f was about 10, now 11-11,5. Doing small adjustments every time. There is so small margins for hitting exactly 12,5-14, the good area. If you adjust too much, you can go directly from 10 to 18.

The meter is a bit more stable than what the video shows, where the bike was revving at a standstill. And it's reacting very quick to throttle changes and such. Easy to read, hard to remember all the stuff until i get back home though. I'm thinking to maybe videotape my runs, as a way to record the data. But by just remembering stuff from the runs, have already smoothened out my fuel map by quite a bit. Too late at night to keep driving now, unfortunately.

You guys gonna love this, when you get your orders from Ebay.

Awesome....! Glad to hear your enjoying your mods. Hopefully my adapter design can move forward for us carb guys. Let us know what the final outcome is. I'm thinking with all the fine adjustments that come with your set-up, you should be able to get everything just about perfect!

[kbryant]

Sorry for the slightly long post, but I'll condense it as much as possible.

To answer some of those questions: The benefits of having an A/F gauge, narrowband, wideband, closed loop system, etc. on a carburated street bike is really more of a cool tech gadget than anything. When dyno tuning, of course we use these tools (both carburated and FI) to determine the best baseline settings. This data is documented and distributed for you to use. Essentially then for the customer to tune, the basic jetting specs are a known entity. But for sake of argument, let's say you have an A/F reading on your gauge/meter riding through a particular climate/elevation that you feel is outside your desired perameters. Are you going to pull over and change the jetting in your carburators to compensate for that? Highly doubtfull. In most cases, we would simply stick with our baseline setting that we tuned to in the first place and deal with the differences in performance. Your particular geograpical location will continue to change. Henceforth, in a perfect world, you would want to continuosly change your jetting. But is it worth the differences in performance to do this? Only you can decide this. Same with the differences in summer and winter blend fuels; performance will change and if you have a carburated vehicle, will you make adjustments? With carbs, it's simply impractable to continually address it so we "settle" for a decent baseline running condition. So again, very cool gadget, but what will you do with this new tool on your carburated streetbike? Once your bike is jetted properly, it would be extremely rare that you would see really big swings in the A/F readings (obviously there are exceptions). As indicated, lot's of climate variables but lets take one example: You normally ride at sea level to say 1500'. Your bike is jetted correctly and you love the way it runs. Now your going for a ride up to the mountains (say 4000' elevation). Your A/F meter is going to show a rich condition. For every 1000' of elevation you lose approximately 2 - 3% of your power. The air is more dense so you are getting a smaller amount of it. In "most" cases, you simply deal with it. Sure you'll notice it more on a smaller bike, but your not going to pull over and make changes (are you?).

Now, with a FI equipped bike, you have much more higher tech options. The standard "closed loop" OEM systems are known as "narrowband". They only sample a small range and essentially switch from lean to rich based primarely on stoichiometric (14.7:1) and little else in-between. Contrary to popular belief, the stoichiometric magic number is not what we tune for. "Most" times we tune in the 12.8 - 13.5 range for best overall power and throttle response. With "wideband" tuning sensors, we now have the ability to tune an engine to a desired ratio table. For example on a Dynojet PCV with autotune, it samples a far broader range whether it be based on rpm or throttle position. Simple put, prior to the autotune option being enabled (wideband/oxygen sensor), we design a map for specific set of numbers we want and load it into the PCV. Then when the autotune is enabled, it will continuously "tune" to those settings under most all conditions. No arguement, it's a very sweet system.

But... will you truly be able to appreciate the difference in autotune mode, over a loaded set map? It really depends on how and where you ride. If you ride in a particular area and conditions, you won't be able to appreciate the benefits. If you ride/live at sea level, warmer temps and higher humidity, but then go up to 6000', colder, less humid conditions, wideband and autotune will benefit you.

On bikes that come with oxygen sensors stock (oem), we disable them (plug them) and simply design a correct map (PC3/V) and load it. Primarily the reason is that the "narrowband" logic of the oem unit will try and override the created map. So it somewhat defeats the idea of a purpose designed map. The beauty of this map, is that it can be manually manipulated based on whatever you would like to change (whether based on throttle position or rpm). But again, there is no debate on the benefits of a real time, wideband autotune setup. Doesn't get any better than that. Tuning streetbikes is all about compromise in most cases. True wideband/autotune removes the compromise in most cases.

To address the oxygen sensor bung questions: We install an oxygen sensor bung in the stock location on all Area P systems shipped to Europe for FI equipped bikes. Although we do recommend disabling the oem narrowband unit, putting a plug in the bung, and installing a PCV for best performance. For anyone with a non-FI bike who would like a 02 Bung installed, you can simply request it at the time you place your order. Or you can send us your system and we can install one for you. We have both 12mm & 18mm bungs. Kawasaki and/or wideband/bosch sensors take the 18mm bung.

For the question on oxygen sensor protrusion into the exhaust stream. Definetly beneficial to have only a minimum of protrusion from the sensor. How much it actually affects performance is debatable, depending on the engines state-of-tune and diameter of the tube it is installed in.

For the question about the slip-fit adaptor tube with bung installed. We have probably been doing those for over 20 years. They work ok. The down side is the available space for practically routing the wiring to/from the sensor. Also, we find that taking the readings closer to the collector area creates a more accurate "tune" for wideband systems. If you are doing it simply to get a general base reading on your A/F without finely accurate real time tuning, then this slip-fit adaptor with bung will suffice.

[dubojr1]

For my purpose, I just want to confirm the A/F ratio after installing all of the performance mods. For example... minus the BRT TIS I have yet to install, I believe I'm done with engine performance mods. The bike seems to run fine but to me smells rich not only on the idle circuit but also throughout the power band. I would like to get the TIS installed and then confirm the A/F ratio's are within desired percentages.

After Kerry's post, I agree that the A/F gauge (permanently mounted)would only be a "flashy" piece added to the bike with no real advantage. A temporary fit is all I would desire.

So Kerry, with your experience using a slip-fit adapter, will it provide sufficient readings to set the baseline A/F ratios? I understand constanly adjusting is unrealistic nor do I want to continue to fiddle with the adjustments to try and achieve the "perfect" mixture for all conditions. We know that will be impossible. If in fact it would be sufficient, what would be a retail cost to fabricate and ship out to me. I still need to weigh the costs vs. gains for this set-up.

Thanks Kerry for your time and your knowledge!

[kkim]

I'm just looking at this to confirm/help me select the correct main jets for my setup and location. From there, I'll use the butt dyno to select the needle and mixture settings.

Can this slip-fit adapter help to select main jets?

[kbryant]

I think it would serve the purpose of getting a reasonably accurate A/F reading. Price would be about $45 or $50. The one end would be swaged to slip over without needing any slots or clamp. When the muffler is installed over the outlet end, it would capture the "O2 Tuning Tube". No real need to use another clamp (but of course we can if you prefer).

[kbryant]

Originally Posted by kkim

Can this slip-fit adapter help to select main jets?

Absolutely.

[Guinss]

Good post by Kerry indeed. I understand i got a narrowband system on my bike, not really compareable to wideband sensors that your talking about here. Narrowband will not read very accurate except for 14,7/1, so not easy to get that 12-13 you want for optimal power.

http://www.autospeed.com/A_109878/cms/article.html

[kkim]

Mahalo, Kerry.

On a related note, can you explain to me why racing bikes seem to be jetted so lean on the mains? I read 90, 92 mains w/ 96 being on the rich side.

Are street bikes and race bikes tuned differently or are the 98s that come in the stock 250s way too rich?

This is one reason I'd like to check/confirm my A/F mixture. No dynos here on the kauai.