May 26th, 2017, 07:35 PM | #1 |
ninjette.org member
Name: Andre
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Carb Synch Issue?
I recently bought an '06 250 Streetfighter that needed the carbs rebuilt (according to the owner). The bike would run with and without the choke but would die with the slightest amount of throttle. I rebuilt the carbs and the bike ran, throttled, and accelerated fine. However the rpms at idle would bounce between 800-1600. The internet led me to believe the carbs needed to be synced. I made a balance out of vinyl tubes and corona bottles (ayy) and synced the cards to the point that the water was even and not moving at all.. or atleast moving so slowly it was negligible. However the rpms still bounced between 1000-1200.
My question is are there any other things to worry about that could cause this issue? I also got the bike with a vapor electric dash installed.. Is it possible that it was installed incorrectly or is so sensitive that it reads a varying numerical value when the oem analog dash would be stable? And last but not least, if I rode the bike like this would anything get damaged? The bike accelerates shifts up and down smoothly without back firing. |
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May 26th, 2017, 08:50 PM | #2 |
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Sounds to me like the idle circuits still need cleaning (jets and passages in the carbs) and or adjusting. Did you have the idle adjusting needles out? If so, is it possible you lost the O-rings or washers in there? Or the O-rings may be bad. Or, is the engine actually changing speed or just the tach going crazy?
and welcome to the board!
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May 26th, 2017, 08:57 PM | #3 | |
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May 26th, 2017, 09:01 PM | #4 |
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Granted this is my first bike and don't exactly know what to look for or what to listen for. But the idle.. to my ear.. sounds stable and when I rev the bike in neutral it drops back down relatively quick. Just, like i said, the vapor tachometer will have fluctuating numbers. And if i ride the bike for a little bit, when I stop, the idles will be different from what I had set it to before I took off. For example.. If i adjusted it to the 1000-1200 range when I stop at a stop light down the road it will be 2500-3800ish. Maybe the bike wasnt all the way warmed up? Not sure.
And thank you for the acceptance! |
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May 26th, 2017, 09:10 PM | #5 |
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It sounds like you have to have the idle speed adjuster (black knob under left carb) has to be turned open (in) too far when the engine is cold or cool to stay running, then as the engine warms to operating temp. it idles to fast. A sure sign that at least one of the carbs still has a plugged idle circuit.
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May 26th, 2017, 09:17 PM | #6 | |
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I appreciate the help btw |
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May 26th, 2017, 09:20 PM | #7 |
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Are the valves adjusted correctly?
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May 26th, 2017, 09:21 PM | #8 |
ninjette.org member
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May 26th, 2017, 10:04 PM | #9 |
ninjette.org member
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Also one of my original questions is still lingering.. Can I still ride it without damaging anything? (Until I have the cash to possibly take it to a shop and let them deal with it)
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May 27th, 2017, 04:55 AM | #10 | |
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If you can get carb cleaner to spray through the passages, and it appears you can, try running a couple of tanks of fuel with "Sea Foam" added, it helps clean out the small passages in the carbs. #1 son's 250 was running, and ran well at full throttle, but a little ragged at idle and small throttle openings, a dose of Sea Foam and he reported it runs like new again.
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May 27th, 2017, 05:50 AM | #11 |
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Sometimes chemical additives will work....note they require some degree of a "pathway" to wash tiny passageway surfaces. Precisely why sometimes additives work....sometimes not. Certainly worth a shot.
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May 27th, 2017, 08:49 AM | #12 | |
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Quote:
Also by ragged at small throttle openings.. When I go from closed throttle and open it there will be almost like a click or surge of power rather than a smooth coming on of power like when you press the gas in a car. |
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May 27th, 2017, 09:03 AM | #13 |
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But I do think it could be beneficial to ride a tank or two through and see what happens. I have a feeling that the issue is something small and I also have confidence that everything is very clean.. Aside from maybe the idle mixture screws which as I said I didnt mess with.. If the seafoam doesn work I will pull them out and makesure the orings and all that are intact.
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May 27th, 2017, 09:10 AM | #14 |
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Thatdude...
You also wrote: "The bike accelerates shifts up and down smoothly without back firing." followed by this (later in the thread ....) "When I go from closed throttle and open it there will be almost like a click or surge of power rather than a smooth coming on of power like when you press the gas in a car." Sure sounds like pilot circuit(s) plugged, then transitions to midrange (a different circuit) which is clear and abruptly kicking in. If you truly want to cut to the chase here....consider my services (PM me if interested) pull your carbs out...then check the valves while carbs being done. If you are able and willing to do some labor, it'll be considerably less $ than a dealer....much quicker too.
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May 27th, 2017, 09:22 AM | #15 | |
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Quote:
If it's running alright at anything off idle, drive it enough to run a tank or two of gas through it. If the transition from the idle circuit to the midrange circuit(needle that hangs down from the slide) is abrupt that is a sure sign that the idle circuit is not open. And you probably have to "sneak up" onto the midrange with very small throttle openings to get it to accelerate without a huge stumble. I would strongly consider Ducatiman's services.
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May 27th, 2017, 09:31 AM | #16 | ||
ninjette.org member
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@ducatiman I see your in NY.. How for are you from the Rockaway NJ Mall area? |
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May 27th, 2017, 09:44 AM | #17 |
ninjette.org member
Name: Andre
Location: NJ
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Seafoam question though..
https://shop.advanceautoparts.com/p/...chTerm=seafoam I just pour the bottle straight into the gas tank? Empty tank, half full, full? |
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May 27th, 2017, 10:15 AM | #18 |
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Not to be overly cynical, but I predict that Seafoam will not help because it's just oil, naphtha (not much different from gasoline) and isopropyl alcohol.
http://www.sueschauls.com/Seafoam_motor_treatment.pdf If I had to try a fuel additive, I'd probably get a bottle of Techron. At least that's known to dissolve deposits in fuel systems to some extent. |
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May 27th, 2017, 10:44 AM | #19 | |
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Quote:
I'd agree Techron the preferable choice. Not even a full bottle (overdose) , maybe 1/2 to a full tank of FRESH fuel. after 100 miles or so re-evaluate.
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May 27th, 2017, 06:50 PM | #20 | |
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Just sayin'. Bill |
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May 27th, 2017, 06:55 PM | #21 |
Guy Who Enjoys Riding
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May 27th, 2017, 07:03 PM | #22 | |
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Bill |
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May 27th, 2017, 07:09 PM | #23 |
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May 27th, 2017, 07:52 PM | #24 |
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No, I just think that's pretty slow for that little engine.
I suggested Techron a few posts up. |
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May 27th, 2017, 09:19 PM | #25 | |
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May 28th, 2017, 12:28 AM | #26 |
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Oddly enough the bike ran fine. It ran that way for 10 years. Go figure. I did note that when I got the carbs off I could see the point of the adjusting screw sticking up into the venturi on the left carb and just a hole on the right carb. I only drove the bike about 15 miles before going through it, adjusting the valves, 15 tooth countershaft sprocket, 105 to a 110 main jet, and Yoshimura slip-ons. It ran well before and beautifully now.
Bill |
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May 29th, 2017, 06:58 AM | #27 |
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If you can pull the carbs out, you can certainly clean them; there isn't any magic involved, contrary to what some forum members here might have you believe.
Great walkthroughs available in the Ninja 250 FAQ over at Ninja250.org. |
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May 29th, 2017, 08:53 AM | #28 | |
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"Carbs are easy"......surely doesn't apply to all, certainly confirmed by the familiar posts we've all read...."I've cleaned them *X* times already!" Poking the pilot jets is one thing...fully refurbing a 20 something year old set of carbs is another.
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May 30th, 2017, 01:06 AM | #29 |
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If it was that, easy, then why are there endless and endless threads about having issues with, and after carb cleaning. At some point you need not only the proper tools, equipment, but the knowledge to do the work needed properly. The services that Ducatiman offers he does for the love of the work, and services he provides to not only this forum, but others as well, and his prices for the services he offers are far cheaper that you'll find anywhere else. He's the only one I trust with my carbs, which says a lot. Yes I can do my own, but he has invested the money in equipment, which isn't cheap by any means, saving me that expense.
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May 30th, 2017, 07:40 AM | #30 | |
ninjette.org member
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If somebody wants to pay to have the service performed because they don't want to be bothered with the hassle of doing it themselves, that's certainly one thing. But it's another entirely if they're willing to learn and do it themselves, but are dissuaded by misinformation from vendors trying to peddle their services. A CV carburetor is hardly complex. Let's not scare people away from trying to perform their own maintenance or learn more about the fueling process, when clearly the first few posts from the OP not only indicate decent mechanical ability, but a willingness to learn. This bike doesn't need to be a black box. |
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May 30th, 2017, 08:35 AM | #31 | ||
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Quote:
Quote:
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May 30th, 2017, 08:40 AM | #32 |
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My first paragraph highlights the fact that people differ in their abilities and resources. I was also pointing out the nature of internal carb difficulties, and their repair paths, can differ wildly.
"Misinformation"? No, to the contrary...realistic. Painting an illusion...generalizing, encouraging a kid of certain, first time success with no more in hand than a toothbrush and spray can while squatting in his outdoor, open apartment parking lot that "carbs are easy" is both unrealistic and irresponsible.
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May 30th, 2017, 10:15 AM | #33 |
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I did my carbs in an open apartment parking lot with some pinsol, carb cleaner, lots of beer, and a 48hr soak. the carbs, not myself. Point, is cleaning the carbs isn't hard but it also isn't easy. "Results may vary" encompasses it all.
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May 30th, 2017, 10:28 AM | #34 | |
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Forums exist for the spread of information. I don't like the idea of someone asking for carb help on a tech talk forum, and the immediate response from the collective consciousness to be 'give the carbs to this guy to clean', rather than actually helping the user troubleshooting the problem. Education is a wonderful thing. Each project has lessons to teach, and with each learning experience, we add to our knowledge base and skill set. As that skill set expands, so does our ability to tackle more complex issues, and further increase our knowledge. And next time you're stranded on the road, you might be able to experience a failure, diagnose it within 15 seconds of coherent thought, and pull apart your slide carb on the side of the road to find that the screw retaining the arm to the slide has backed out.... and after spending an hour fixing it, you're able to motor onward, rather than blinding calling a tow truck miles and miles from home. That is empowerment. I say we're better served explaining the pilot circuit's operation, and the procedure for testing the passage to ensure adequate flow. Should the OP not be willing, or be unable to resolve that, then so be it - perhaps it's out of his ability to clean, and the ultrasonic bath might be just what it needs. That may eat into your profits from this forum, but I would argue that this forum doesn't (and shouldn't) serve merely as a medium by which we push posters toward vendors. If they still can't figure it out, or simply don't want to handle, then sure... Suggest a vendor. |
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May 30th, 2017, 11:57 AM | #35 |
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By all means, walk the walk....have at it...right here, right now....no one stopping you. Enlighten us all ...lead the OP to success.
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May 30th, 2017, 12:30 PM | #36 |
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Beyond common problems...... comprehensive carb cleaning is not for everyone, there is much to go wrong in short order. We've seen many members endlessly chase their tails, break stuff, assemble and adjust stuff wrong.
With some of the fleet becoming old, the vast majority require much more than "cleaning". The potential for leakage must be addressed, any less attention is irresponsible, and yes, this may even require thowing money and parts at them (gasp). Consumables...carb innards are not forever items. And certainly there is MORE... much more....to it than simply addressing the pilot jets while they are out and on the bench. Please...you're screwing around with FUEL...if not absolutely sure of what you're doing...send them to someone who is. Also there is a huge difference between a cleaning, and a full refurbishment. Splitting, new O-rings on the rails, wet test, bench sync, etc.......
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May 30th, 2017, 02:15 PM | #37 | |
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Quote:
If you haven't noticed, Ducatiman does chime-in a lot to help people that are struggling with their carbs - plenty of others do as well. Some times, no matter how much carb spray you use or how many wires you stick in the holes, you aren't going to remove an obstruction. Many people just don't clean the carbs in enough detail, then struggle trying to get the bike to run. Some give up and take the bike to a dealer. The same type of service at a dealer would be significantly more and most likely not as well done. The option of having them professionally cleaned and adjusted for a reasonable cost is a big plus for forum members. Some people enjoy working on their cycles. Others don't and just want to ride. |
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May 30th, 2017, 06:32 PM | #38 |
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OK. I need to chime in...
From personal experience, I have watched videos, read through posts and instructions, and cleaned a half dozen Ninja 250 carb sets myself in the last year. It isn't overly difficult, but not exactly easy either. I am mechanically inclined - having torn apart and rebuilt three Pregens in the last year, methodical, and meticulous. And still, 50 % of the time I have had to remove, and repeat the process. What I am learning, is that paying for experience, sometimes is the best way to go. I am on the fence about doing the next set myself, or having Ducatiman do them for me... Just my 2 cents.
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May 30th, 2017, 07:36 PM | #39 | |
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Well, you've gotta start somewhere but refurbishing complex Keihin CV carbs may not be a good place to start. Cheers, Bill |
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May 31st, 2017, 05:37 AM | #40 |
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thanks for support, RJ and others.
Closely rereading the OP's floating RPM issues...I should have perceived a possible cause earlier. The decel valve has 3 hoses above, 1 tiny one below (he stated he replaced that) 2 of these hoses route to vacuum barbs between the carbs and very well may be loose and leaking vac intermittently (varying cold to hot?) ....causing fluctuation in RPM's. I've seen these hoses alarmingly loose on repeated occasions. They should be checked at all their points. Tough to get to, extremely tight quarters between the carbs, but imperative that vacuum leaks must be checked and repaired if present. Much easier to replace hoses if carbs are split, allowing free access. Of course, if splitting its best to replace the fuel rail orings while you're there already...vent rail orings too.
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