Fuel injection

[BloodFX]

Hi I was wondering is the ecotrons kit the only way to FI an old 250ee or can parts be swapped from the FI model onto the old models?

[DannoXYZ]

Ecotrons is worse way, low-quality and nothing but trouble. There's A LOT more needed in parts and labour than what's included in their kit. Best path is Microsquirt. One major component is software and using it to use tune. Download both and try it out.

Check out greg737's Microsquirt EFI on Ninja 250 and Bandit 400.

https://www.ninjette.org/forums/showthread.php?t=54500
https://www.ninjette.org/forums/showthread.php?t=34208
https://www.ninjette.org/forums/showthread.php?t=92695
https://www.ninjette.org/forums/showthread.php?t=99353
http://forums.banditalley.net/suzuki...ection-project

There's also buying Ninja 250 EFi components from Europe & Japan and converting bike into foreign model.

[BloodFX]

So at end of your post you said about buying efi parts from europe and japan, are you say parts are swappable?

Thanks!

[DannoXYZ]

Originally Posted by BloodFX

So at end of your post you said about buying efi parts from europe and japan, are you say parts are swappable?

Thanks!

Yes, it can be done. Very expensive out of all options. And you won't be able to program ECU until you buy additional software. Parts list includes following but I may be leaving some stuff out:

- wiring harness
- ECU
- flywheel
- airbox with IAT
- MAP sensor
- ECT sensor
- throttle-bodies with TPS
- injectors
- ignition coils
- tank & pump
- petrol hoses & fuel-filter
- gauge cluster


What is measurable goal with converting to EFI?

[BloodFX]

I just hate carbs lol.

[DannoXYZ]

Originally Posted by BloodFX

I just hate carbs lol.

If you're keeping bike mostly stock with no need for programmability, then factory system is simplest to install. No wideband-O2 or dyno-tuning needed. Truly plug-n-play.

Good resource is http://cmsnl.com to find part# of EFI components for foreign bikes. Then search on part#, can find on eBay.co.uk or auctions.yahoo.co.jp .

[BloodFX]

Its an el250, will the side swung exhaust affect afr?

[Ceeloo Yello]

I've been wanting to do the swap for years

[BloodFX]

Originally Posted by DannoXYZ

If you're keeping bike mostly stock with no need for programmability, then factory system is simplest to install. No wideband-O2 or dyno-tuning needed. Truly plug-n-play.

Good resource is http://cmsnl.com to find part# of EFI components for foreign bikes. Then search on part#, can find on eBay.co.uk or auctions.yahoo.co.jp .

I'm gonna do it, is there anyway to do away with airbox completely?

[Ceeloo Yello]

Did pregens ever come stock with FI or do you have to look at euro model 2008+?

[DannoXYZ]

Originally Posted by BloodFX

Its an el250, will the side swung exhaust affect afr?

Shouldn't be a problem.

Originally Posted by BloodFX

I'm gonna do it, is there anyway to do away with airbox completely?


Anyway heres my bike, custom restoration 27 years old, I just want fuel injection now.

Before:

After:

That's pretty cool work!!

ECU needs accurate measurement of intake air-temp, so you can remove air-box. But needs a place with steady and stable air-supply from outside for IAT-sensor to measure. Need to keep it from getting battered with hot air that's swirling all around engine area.

[choneofakind]

Originally Posted by DannoXYZ

Ecotrons is worse way, low-quality and nothing but trouble. There's A LOT more needed in parts and labour than what's included in their kit. Best path is Microsquirt. One major component is software and using it to use tune. Download both and try it out.

Honestly if you have access to a dyno and can adjust the VE tables and forget all about using the learning mode (with narrowband sensors), the ecotrons setup has all the hardware to be a solid running system. Completely agree though, there's a lot of time in it.

[choneofakind]

Originally Posted by BloodFX

I just hate carbs lol.

As someone who went through the hassle of the ecotrons kit, did a ton of time tuning (sent them tons of updates for their cold start, VE, and lambda tables), and eventually went back to the factory carbs... stick with the carbs. They're incredibly robust, easy to adjust, and functional.

if you really hate carbs that much, sell the bike. There's no sugar coating it.

[ducatiman]

.02
though I respect any owners wishes to do what they want with their own....I'll agree the proposed undertaking is not gonna be as "bolt-on" nor simple and easy as...click heels twice before turning key. Vroom vroom go go.

Expect fitment trials and issues, extensive research and labor, required alternative parts swapping, ongoing tune mapping requirements, on and on.

I'd agree and suggest getting the existing carbs and entire fuel system clean and functional and *keeping it that way* is in your best interests. Sure, as on any carbed bike some ongoing preventative maintenance will be required, but not constantly demanded. Consistent use of clean fuel, additive and some forward thinking. Predict in advance any long term dormancy or winter storage, modify maintenance techniques accordingly.
Avoid any outdoor long term storage. Ride it!

Buy an FI model when so moved. Tons of great, affordable choices out there!

[BloodFX]

I respect all of your opinions, but I'm very adamant I want to do it, I just believe anything easy isn't worth it and I like to be custom.

Any help on what parts to buy from what year bike would be awesome, on this awesome adventure.

[DannoXYZ]

You'll want to look for non-U.S. 250s. Starting in 2008 is when EFI was used. I don't think pre-gen models ever had EFI.

[BloodFX]

Originally Posted by DannoXYZ

You'll want to look for non-U.S. 250s. Starting in 2008 is when EFI was used. I don't think pre-gen models ever had EFI.

Including the fi engine casing to right?

[Ceeloo Yello]

If you like not easy I have seen people convert their carbs to throttle-bodies, you can Google it

[BloodFX]

Found a problem already, the space is so tight I wouldn't have room to put a pump under the seat, unless I removed the airbox or make a custom airbox.

Is a custom small airbox possible?

Just wondering if it would affect the sensors, I could cut off the snorkel and use that as the intake, so it would be the same size intake.

[DannoXYZ]

maybe look for tank with pump built-in? Or retrofit your tank with in-tank pump. Can cut iut and braze in section from 300 tank perhaps? Or use small inline pump, like small Walbro. Swirl pot not really necessary on street bike.

Sure, small airbox will work. Just need to be sealed from outside. IAT-sensor goes in after filter.

[BloodFX]

Originally Posted by DannoXYZ

maybe look for tank with pump built-in? Or retrofit your tank with in-tank pump. Can cut iut and braze in section from 300 tank perhaps? Or use small inline pump, like small Walbro. Swirl pot not really necessary on street bike.

Sure, small airbox will work. Just need to be sealed from outside. IAT-sensor goes in after filter.

Shall I just go with gregs pump and regulator?

[choneofakind]

You have an 88-07 bike, right? The ecotrons fuel pump will fit transverse if you mount it directly to the airbox.

If you want to experiment with plastic welding (basically a soldering iron and a ziptie as filler) you can strategically cut and notch the airbox for more space to the point I think it could be mounted longitudinally without much fuss and avoid the lean-angle-starvation I experienced at times, but be warned that reducing airbox volume reduces the benefit of having an airbox. If you go to far, you might as well go back to a pod filter. (that said, the airbox was designed in the mid-80's, so my guess is they were only designing to a target volume, rather than an optimized pressure response or flow characteristic. Keep the contours smoothed and you'll be fine if you go the notching route.

If you ditch the airbox, you can use some tin snips and sheet metal to create somewhat of a 4-sided or 5-sided box that's held on by the hose clamps of the pod filter. I did it when I was experimenting with that also. I ended up going back to the stock airbox. I remember did seem to smooth out the VE table a little (minimally).

Don't forget to cut the battery box off of the airbox. That's 90% of the downside of the airbox gone right there.

EDIT: the other thing I'd recommend if you're getting this deep into things is a Thermobob. It fixes the cooling system of this bike to function as it should with a bypass loop and a 180 thermostat. The effect is your engine gets up to operating temp quickly without oscillation, and stays there regardless of how hard you run the bike or how cool it is outside. Stable engine temps are helpful when you're altering fueling/timing based on temperatures.

EDIT2: the pump Greg used is a better option if you can fit it. The pump is submerged in its own sump inside the case. So while it's big, it acts as a surge tank/sump and minimizes/eliminates fuel starvation at high lean angle in sustained corners (assuming you ever track it).

[BloodFX]

Originally Posted by choneofakind

You have an 88-07 bike, right? The ecotrons fuel pump will fit transverse if you mount it directly to the airbox.

If you want to experiment with plastic welding (basically a soldering iron and a ziptie as filler) you can strategically cut and notch the airbox for more space to the point I think it could be mounted longitudinally without much fuss and avoid the lean-angle-starvation I experienced at times, but be warned that reducing airbox volume reduces the benefit of having an airbox. If you go to far, you might as well go back to a pod filter. (that said, the airbox was designed in the mid-80's, so my guess is they were only designing to a target volume, rather than an optimized pressure response or flow characteristic. Keep the contours smoothed and you'll be fine if you go the notching route.

If you ditch the airbox, you can use some tin snips and sheet metal to create somewhat of a 4-sided or 5-sided box that's held on by the hose clamps of the pod filter. I did it when I was experimenting with that also. I ended up going back to the stock airbox. I remember did seem to smooth out the VE table a little (minimally).

Don't forget to cut the battery box off of the airbox. That's 90% of the downside of the airbox gone right there.

EDIT: the other thing I'd recommend if you're getting this deep into things is a Thermobob. It fixes the cooling system of this bike to function as it should with a bypass loop and a 180 thermostat. The effect is your engine gets up to operating temp quickly without oscillation, and stays there regardless of how hard you run the bike or how cool it is outside. Stable engine temps are helpful when you're altering fueling/timing based on temperatures.

EDIT2: the pump Greg used is a better option if you can fit it. The pump is submerged in its own sump inside the case. So while it's big, it acts as a surge tank/sump and minimizes/eliminates fuel starvation at high lean angle in sustained corners (assuming you ever track it).

Already have thermobob 3 its awesome.

[atsmurat]

Originally Posted by BloodFX

'Hi I was wondering is the ecotrons kit the only way to FI an old 250ee or can parts be swapped from the FI model onto the old models?

you can check here : http://forums.banditalley.net/suzuki...ection-project

[DannoXYZ]

Originally Posted by BloodFX

Shall I just go with gregs pump and regulator?

sure, if you can fit it.

[Mohawk]

Simplest answer is to buy a wrecked 300 in USA & swap the left engine case & generator to get the FI pickup, then fit all the 300 loom, ecu, injection & an external fuel pump.

I've bought all the parts & was in the process of big boring the 300 when covid hit. But the plan is a complete engine, loom, ecu swap. Stalled at the moment with everything in lockdown & the fact I dislocated my shoulder ☹️

[BloodFX]

Originally Posted by Mohawk

Simlest answer is to buy a wrecked 300 in USA & swap the left engine case & generator to get the FI pickup, then fit all the 300 loom, ecu, injection & an external fuel pump.

I've bought all the parts & was in the process of big boring the 300 when covid hit. But the plan is a complete engine, loom, ecu swap. Stalled at the moment with everything in lockdown & the fact I dislocated my shoulder ☹️

Wouldn't that make the injectors inject to much fuel thinking its a 300?

[DannoXYZ]

yeah, if you use 300 system, you'll have to buy software to reprogram ECU for 250 specs. I like Woolich. Not really worth it for one-time tune. More worthwhile for race-bike that's constantly getting upgrades.

[Mohawk]

Originally Posted by BloodFX

Wouldn't that make the injectors inject to much fuel thinking its a 300?

You could buy a Euro 250 ECU or more simply just get the PC Fuel Commander for the Ninja 300. Simple to fit & get a dyno tune. I just added one to my Versys-X 300, even though PC say it won't work, it does. It appears Kawasaki don't specify polarity on the injector connectors, so you may have to swap the pins around on the FC connectors, I had too. Works great.

[BloodFX]

Is the flywheel bolt the same as the older version?

[DannoXYZ]

yup

[BloodFX]

Gonna start buying parts and maybe have it done for summer 2022, will post here when I start it, could I use a power commander auto tune with it?

[Mohawk]

The PCFC does not support Autotune, that is only available as an option with the PCV, which is mucho dollars.