July 27th, 2013, 12:36 PM | #1 |
teh n00b
Name: Ralf
Location: Ontario, Canada
Join Date: Jun 2013 Motorcycle(s): 2009 Ninja 250R Posts: 53
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Interesting Talk With 2 Mechanics About The Engine
Hello people
I recently talked to two mechanics from different shops and got different views; thought I'd share with you guys and hear your thoughts. Talked to one guy and he said he did near 200km/h (~125mph) with a passenger on a 250. I told him my bike doesn't go any higher than 9000 rpm in 6th gear (speed tops out at 130-140 km/h). He said I should be shifting late in every gear (around 10k rpm) to get the best out of the bike. He said engines blow if the oil isn't changed regularly. Finally another issue, he said with Ninjettes, is that, usually, starter craps out around 20,000 km. Then, I talked to another guy who first asked me why I was even pushing the little engine so hard. He said it wasn't good for the engine to sustain high rpms 1.5k away from redline (which is common sense to me). I thought that 250 engines are built strong and can withstand highway speeds and a few minutes of 9-10k rpms. I never used to push my rpms past 8000 until I got the general consensus from my research that its' ok to take it to 10,000 rpm+ once in a while. Now this guy says to not push the bike. But then i think of all the guys and girls who take their ninjettes to the track and really push their bikes lol Another interesting thing he said was to not use the engine kill switch and that it's for emergencies. It should always be in the ON position and the keys should be used. This also coincides with what the first mechanic said about the starters crapping out. At the MSF course, they taught us to use the engine kill switch when turning off the bike. The only reason I made this thread is because these guys are both mechanics . In the end, after all the opinions, I go with what feels right to me which is cruising around 6k rpm since I do mostly city riding. it's just nice to know what the truth really is and where better to ask than experienced Ninjette owners. |
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July 27th, 2013, 12:47 PM | #2 |
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You should have posted this three years ago, when I started commuting in my Ninjette each week day, covering 30 miles of highway at 10500 rpm sustained !!! Maybe it is not too late after 25K miles of that abuse? How specifically rpms' damage these engines? Did they say?
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July 27th, 2013, 01:00 PM | #3 | |
teh n00b
Name: Ralf
Location: Ontario, Canada
Join Date: Jun 2013 Motorcycle(s): 2009 Ninja 250R Posts: 53
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Quote:
My logic is that I don't take my car past 4k rpm. And while a bike engine is different from a car engine, it's still an engine. Then again, the shop that I went to had lots of cruisers and Harley-type bikes. Maybe those bikes are driven differently? |
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July 27th, 2013, 01:18 PM | #4 |
ninjette.org guru
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I wouldn't trust either of them.
- 120 mph with a passenger. Not very likely. Maybe with 2 VERY light people. - Oil changes are easy to do yourself. What frequency/price was he pushing? - Starters COULD go at any time. To say that 20,000km is typical, is crazy. - These engines can run any RPM, all day, every day. If it worries you, just watch the oil level. - I believe the kill switch is preference. It's a good habit to have, without thinking about it. I personally just use the key, because I don't want to forget, and get a dead battery. Follow your owner's manual and you will be golden.
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July 27th, 2013, 01:23 PM | #5 | |
ninjette.org member
Name: Joe
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They sound pretty ignorant, but the Ninja 250 FAQ says:
Quote:
That seems a little unsettling to me. |
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July 27th, 2013, 01:30 PM | #6 | |
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Quote:
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July 27th, 2013, 02:06 PM | #7 | |
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Ehhh, I'm gonna say these guys are taking you for a spin. Sure, you'll wear parts faster if you run 12000 rpm all day. But in the end, no matter how fast or slow your engine is revving, it's going to wear.
Your logic of car engine might be sorta valid, to a point. You take it to 4k... out of what, 6500? 7000? That's 60% roughly. So then, 60% of 14000 is 8400 rpm. You might have trouble with keeping under 8400 rpm on the highway, but if it makes you feel any better, keep it under that for other roads and you'll be fine Quote:
Respectfully, I'm calling BS on what some of those guys said. The only things I've seen that are in line with what I've experienced is that the bike likes being revved up (10k is not needed for every day riding, but hey) and that oil changes are important. Other than that, I'd ignore those dudes and go enjoy a nice ride, shifting wherever it feels natural and not worrying about how I shut the bike off. As long as it stops running without be dropping it, who cares? PS, if you're actually struggling to get past 9000 rpm in 6th, you need to do some work. Clear the intake of blockages, clean the carbs, lube your chain, make sure your brakes aren't dragging, and make sure the throttle works properly. That's not normal, that's only about 70 mph. |
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July 27th, 2013, 02:22 PM | #8 |
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120 mph with two people is bs.
First off the weight is too much and the second thing is aerodynamic drag. The motor not being able to withstand high rpms is BS. I have ridden for 10hr trips often with 9-10k rpm pretty much the whole time. I like the kill switch shutoff better, using the keys kills power to everything. Oil changes are important, the correct oil needs to be used, with good intervals and level checks.
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July 27th, 2013, 02:41 PM | #9 |
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125 mph with a passenger. No way no how never going to happen.
I have only seen one starter go bad. The bike had 38000 miles. Clean oil is good for every engine. And sustained RPm above 10000 will not have any adverse effect. You need to find different mechanics. First one if full of stories. Second one knows nothing about the 250 ninja.
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July 27th, 2013, 02:57 PM | #10 |
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F=M*A
Our ninjette engine's mass makes it ok to run at much higher RPMs |
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July 27th, 2013, 03:05 PM | #11 |
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Sooo, I take ith these mechanics worked at the Honda dealership ?
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July 27th, 2013, 03:29 PM | #12 | |
Rev Limiter
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Quote:
From the sound of it, both of those mechanics are Old School HD guys with a different perspective. I wouldn't even worry about the life of a starter... If everything is adjusted properly and the engine is operating within it's normal temp range (that means not cold either) and has adequate clean oil of the proper type, running RPMs consistently at redline isn't going to do any damage. It will increase wear and reduce the lifespan of the engine vs operating at a lower RPM, but that's true with any engine. Keep everything adjusted properly, run a high quality oil (changed regularly) - and don't sweat it! |
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July 27th, 2013, 03:29 PM | #13 | |
Daily Ninjette rider
Name: Hernan
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Quote:
I was trying to say that rpms' don't hurt an engine that is properly lubricated and cooled for those rpms'. Actually, the rpms' are the natural result of the output torque and the resistance or load that the engine has to overcome. The mass and accelerations of the reciprocating elements determine how fast they can rotate; so, ship engines go around a few times per minute and engines of model airplanes spin at 20K rpm without breaking a sweat. Now, all this reciprocating and rotational movement happens while all metal parts float on a film of oil that keep them apart at all times. For that to happen, good oils are needed, as well as reduced gaps between any two moving parts. Reduced gap is only possible with precision machining and with liquid cooling controlled by a thermostat (which prevent the metal parts from expanding with heat). This is very important: metal parts of any engine only wear out during the time that they move against another while the film of lubricant is not formed yet. That time is start-ups only. The dynamics of that relative movement and the forced flow by the oil pump establish that film, but it takes a few seconds. The best lubrication happens when the engine is at normal operational temperature. If temperature goes too high, the oil starts becoming something else and tends to leave areas without protection. When the gap gets bigger and bigger with wear, it is harder for the film to get steady and much of what the pump supplies goes out at the other end. At moments when lubrication and temperature are less than ideal, we can brake that film of lubricant if we try to keep the rpms low and the torque high (what is also known as bogging the engine or shifting low). That happens because rpms' and torque or force over the engine's and transmission's elements are inversely proportional (when one is low the other must be high). For that reason, it is healthier for the engine to keep the rpms reasonably as high as possible when the bike is overcoming a load (acceleration, hill, etc.). Never, my friend, be shy of revving your Ninjette, as long as the engine is properly lubricated and loaded. The longevity argument is a myth: if kept within factory specs, high number of turns per minute cannot have bad effect on the wear of any engine. At least in theory, an engine that never stops to get started again doesn't wear out. That tells us that any engine with 50K miles and two start-ups per day is in much better shape than another with the same miles but having been started up six times per day. That also contradicts the prediction about the starter. My apologies again.
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Motofool .................................Never ride faster than your guardian angel can fly "Mankind is composed of two sorts of men — those who love and create, and those who hate and destroy. Love is the bond between men, the way to teach and the center of the world." - José Martí |
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July 27th, 2013, 03:57 PM | #14 |
ninjette.org member
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Motofool, so you're saying a Ninja 250 engine that is almost always at 10,000+RPM will not wear out any quicker than an engine that rarely exceeds 10,000RPM if all the other conditions (number of start ups, maintenance, etc.) are exactly the same?
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July 27th, 2013, 04:02 PM | #15 |
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well what leads to it failing. Its all a case by case.
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July 27th, 2013, 04:05 PM | #16 |
So, where's the reverse?
Name: Anson
Location: Ontario, Canada
Join Date: Nov 2010 Motorcycle(s): 2009 Kawasaki Ninja 250R Posts: A lot.
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That probably helps out your gas mileage But even a car likes a good spanking now and then. In fact, when I owned a Toyota, the owner's manual recommended that at least once a month you take it to an onramp and give it full acceleration. Reason being was that it helps to clear carbon build-up.
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July 27th, 2013, 04:18 PM | #17 | |
Daily Ninjette rider
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Quote:
I am riding a bike that has proved it to me. Now, if cheap or contaminated oil is used, and/or cooling is marginal, bad things can happen at those or lower rpms'. Remember that F x V = Torque x rpm = same for a similar load If you reduce the rpms' via upshifting, more force or torque has to be applied, which comes from opening the throttle a little more. Then, more pressure will develop in the combustion chamber and more force the elements of the engine, clutch and transmission will withstand. The redline is the conservative limit that the manufacturer gives you, beyond which lubrication may start failing due to excessive shear (viscosity forces that oppose the relative movement of the parts and grow higher with their speed), being followed by over-heating and catastrophic failure.
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Motofool .................................Never ride faster than your guardian angel can fly "Mankind is composed of two sorts of men — those who love and create, and those who hate and destroy. Love is the bond between men, the way to teach and the center of the world." - José Martí |
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July 27th, 2013, 04:28 PM | #18 | ||
teh n00b
Name: Ralf
Location: Ontario, Canada
Join Date: Jun 2013 Motorcycle(s): 2009 Ninja 250R Posts: 53
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Quote:
I know that top speed according to the ninjette wiki and online resources is around 150. Not as credible as a doctor but still he's more qualified than me to operate on my bike. I looked at some videos about cleaning the carbs and it looks like a lot of work given my level of n00b. I'm a little paranoid with mechanics and their suggestions; so the first guy was dishonest. He said some other things too which made me question him. The second mechanic was honest, but when I told him the bike struggles over 9000 rpm in 6th gear, he asked me why I was even taking it that high haha. Quote:
That is an insightful explanation btw I goto these guys hoping for atleast half-honest service and they tell me the opposite things. I only put Shell T6 in my ninjette, thanks to your suggestions in previous threads and don't push the bike too hard. I just thought it was funny and a bit confusing to hear this kind of advice, and given that they're mechanics, one of whom I've been to before, would be semi-reliable. And I actually went to these guys to avoid stealerships and after reading some very good reviews on local motorcycle forums. So much for that. Caveat Emptor. |
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July 27th, 2013, 04:32 PM | #19 | |
ninjette.org guru
Name: Tom
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Quote:
My 2 cents...the high RPM Ninja 250/300 engine(if driven in a similar manner) will not wear out any quicker, if properly lubricated. The engineers designed it that way These truly are stellar engine/drivetrains. If properly maintained, they will be the absolute LAST of your worries.
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July 27th, 2013, 04:45 PM | #20 | |
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Quote:
It has been excellent so far. I don't have a reason to think that the mechanics had interest on advising you wrongly; in many cases that is what they have learned from others while working on a particular type of machine. It is even good advice for the engines that they repair, which are a totally different technology and designed and built for a different purpose. Your bike is your friend, don't push her too hard and be punctual with her LTC.
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Motofool .................................Never ride faster than your guardian angel can fly "Mankind is composed of two sorts of men — those who love and create, and those who hate and destroy. Love is the bond between men, the way to teach and the center of the world." - José Martí |
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July 27th, 2013, 04:46 PM | #21 |
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July 27th, 2013, 05:10 PM | #22 | |
teh n00b
Name: Ralf
Location: Ontario, Canada
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Quote:
I'm sure it's something most people on this site relate to... but I'm fallin' in love with her ... so she gets treated to the finest oils and proper maintenance. It's the way she whistles at me every time I'm in the garage... |
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July 27th, 2013, 07:50 PM | #23 | |
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Quote:
Will it pull past 9000 in every other gear? When you are trying to get to top speed, at what RPM are you shifting? Are you a large person? What you are experiencing as a problem may not be if you are shifting too low as you are accelerating and the engine is always below it's power peak. Adding some fuel system cleaner like Techron Concentrate (EDIT: 1oz per gal) is a good idea. What fuel are you using? 87 octane is what you want - without Ethanol is always best. Ya, that first part is total BS... Last futzed with by jkv45; July 28th, 2013 at 07:55 AM. |
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July 28th, 2013, 05:35 AM | #24 | |
Rev Limiter
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Quote:
Using a superior lubricant will reduce it significantly to the point where the difference is minor, but increasing RPM will always increase wear. |
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July 28th, 2013, 05:56 AM | #25 | |
teh n00b
Name: Ralf
Location: Ontario, Canada
Join Date: Jun 2013 Motorcycle(s): 2009 Ninja 250R Posts: 53
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Quote:
I shifted around 9-10k from 5th the few times. I'm a small guy (5'8" 135 lbs) and I put the recommended 87 octane. In first gear, that bogging window from 7.5 to 10kish discourages me from high revs and makes me think it's like the carbs vs the whole shifting below the peak issue. Thanks for the recommendation on try cleaner brand though |
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July 28th, 2013, 06:43 AM | #26 |
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from http://faq.ninja250.org/wiki/Acceler...changing_gears The point is dips in acceleration at different RPMs in normal |
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July 28th, 2013, 07:19 AM | #27 | |
Long Time Rider
Name: Blue
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Quote:
Have you at least looked at your air filter, cleaned or replaced it? What about verifying whether or not the carbs are shimmed or snorkel removed (since you have a slip on)? Tried to locate or purchase the the carb cleaning recomendations? |
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July 28th, 2013, 08:11 AM | #28 |
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Wait did you say ninjawiki said top speed out of the 250 was 150!? Someone should let racerx know about that! Or if you meant 150 kph it would make more sense haha. Just run some good oil I am running rotella t6 at the moment but it shears quickly even after 500 miles. If you don't start the bike lower the 50 degrees Fahrenheit Rotella 15w40 is a good choice. It is an HDEO meant for big rigs but I follow used oil analysis and other wear tracking things and this oil outperforms and does not shear like the t6. And if you are worried about sustained high rpm don't be. Just make sure the oil is up to temp ( the case on the right side is a decent way to measure) you should not be able to hold your hand on it. Up to temp oil is around 180-230 degrees. I sustain revs 9-13000 for half and hour at least.
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July 28th, 2013, 08:14 AM | #29 |
ninjette.org guru
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Plus rotella 15w40 is CHEAP! So you can change it often. Don't go 3000 miles. When and oil change costs 10 bucks why not do it often.
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July 28th, 2013, 09:07 AM | #30 | |
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Quote:
For the little Ninja to really get going, you need to shift closer to 12,000 RPMs or over. Power is just starting to build around 9000, and shifting at that point will drop the revs down below where you need to be to accelerate strongly. |
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July 28th, 2013, 09:56 AM | #31 | |||
teh n00b
Name: Ralf
Location: Ontario, Canada
Join Date: Jun 2013 Motorcycle(s): 2009 Ninja 250R Posts: 53
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Quote:
Quote:
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I'm hoping to have a friend drop her off at the mechanic's during the weekday so he can check it out thoroughly @allanoue the thing is, I rode my friend's ninjette and the acceleration was way more constant as the revs built up, so there's definitely something with carbs/mixture -_- |
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July 28th, 2013, 10:07 AM | #32 | |
Daily Ninjette rider
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Quote:
Every cam and ring, no matter how many in a cylinder, receive lubrication to some degree. The top ring has a very critical balance between minimum lubrication and maximum sealing capability, all under the worst temperature and pressure conditions. There is no pressured lubrication there, just a mist from the surrounding rotating parts, so it can become marginal very easily; reason for which the surfaces of many rings and cylinder walls have special anti-friction covering or materials. Just Google this: How are piston rings lubricated? The highest friction coefficients happen between similar materials due to electrons' affinity. Steel sliding over steel generate huge amounts of heat that will reduce their characteristics of resistance. For that reason, a microscopic bunch of ball bearings is forced in between both surfaces: clean oil. Those balls reduce that coefficient of friction many times, with the added bonus of carrying heat away from those metal parts: staying relatively cool those remain strong. Another good thing that oil does is functioning as a pneumatic seal between high pressure zones (top of pistons) and low pressure zones (crankcase), avoiding combustion and exhaust gases leaking down and contaminating the oil. Hence, lubrication between rings and cylinders' walls is as desirable as difficult to achieve for all conditions. The difference between the involved metals creates a safety margin for any brief periods of time when that fine balance fails. Due to increasing heat and temperature, self-destruction will soon follow if lubrication is not re-established. When that point is reached, yes, higher rpms' will be more destructive; but that point is way above 10K rpms' for a healthy engine of a Ninja 250. Metal parts that make direct contact with each other don't last for more than a few miles, if they are that resistant to heat generated by friction. Cooling systems alone cannot keep the metal parts cool; lubricant is the very important link between the metal and the coolant that can avoid very hot points in any engine. Heat is the limiting factor that makes internal combustion engines so thermally inefficient (~30%). Millions have been expend in labs to find more resistant materials (even oval ceramic pistons have been made) and lubricants. You may be correct, but my experience tells me that engines don't work that way.
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Motofool .................................Never ride faster than your guardian angel can fly "Mankind is composed of two sorts of men — those who love and create, and those who hate and destroy. Love is the bond between men, the way to teach and the center of the world." - José Martí |
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July 28th, 2013, 10:09 AM | #33 |
ninjette.org sage
Name: Benji
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I say ride it like you stole it and keep up with the regular maintenance. Used motors are only what $500 anyways?
As far as 9,000 rpm in 6th.... my 250 would hit redline in 6th (not the limiter, although I never tried, but it would get the needle into the red). So your either a lot bigger than me, or there's something wrong with your bike. |
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July 28th, 2013, 10:19 AM | #34 | |
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Quote:
The difference between idling and and high rpm is oil flow. The difference in wear between going 6k and 9k for an hour is probably a millionth of a percent. A rider would cause more damage, with bad shifts than with high rpm. Poor maintenance will cause more damage than anything else, except maybe a crash.
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July 28th, 2013, 12:00 PM | #35 | |
Long Time Rider
Name: Blue
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Quote:
First, start with the snorkel. If it is still installed, chances are your carb needles have not been shimmed. Shimming will help the throttle response between 1/4-3/4 throttle range. If it is removed, chances are you may have a jet kit installed to go along with your exhaust. What type air filter did you use? How do the spark plugs look or have they been replaced? Give Star Tron Fuel Treatment a try. It will help clean the fuel system. |
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July 28th, 2013, 07:50 PM | #36 | |
teh n00b
Name: Ralf
Location: Ontario, Canada
Join Date: Jun 2013 Motorcycle(s): 2009 Ninja 250R Posts: 53
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Quote:
I think i'll give the fuel treatment and carb cleaner a try. If she still misbehaves, off to the mechanic we go. Thanks everyone for your input! |
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July 28th, 2013, 08:22 PM | #37 |
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Uhh I can't hit 120mph actual on my 500 with just me... and I'm like 145lbs geared up lol. I hit 127 on the speedo which is probably under 120 actual so... CBR is a different story
Both of my bikes see over 10k on a regular basis too, I mean why have a peaky sport bike if you aren't going to use it like that? They make v twins for a reason |
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July 28th, 2013, 08:41 PM | #38 |
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Ninja Star the 15w40 is not T6 it is not synthetic. Don't worry about it not being synthetic it does not hinder the performance. If you want to get in a deep oil discussion just let me know but as long as your not riding the bike below 45-50 degrees then the 15w40 will work well. I'm a regular on bobistheoilguy a forum dedicated to finding better oil tracking wear and testing to find the best lubricants. The 15 part is the viscosity when cold. The lower the number the better it flows when cold. But with the lower number more viscosity improvers are needed which increases the shear ability of the oil and so on.
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