gear/downshifting questions

[syoo]

im a spanking new rider, only been riding for close to 3 weeks now but i cant seem to get the hang of downshifting.

say im going 60kph at 4th gear and i forget what gear im in and im approaching a green light but theres a build up of cars. i know im not going to come to a full stop so i dont want to be in 1st but im going to be going too slow for 3rd gear, so i want to shift into 2nd but since i dont know what gear im in, ill pull the clutch in, coast, shift down from 4th into first and back up into 2nd, then release the clutch while giving it throttle. it works but it doesnt feel right.

and what rpm should i shift each gear at (08 ninja 250)? i know i should be listening to the sound and feel of the engine but im nowhere close to that level of skill. i cant tell when the bike needs more or less power and when the engine is struggling just by sound and feel.

i took the msf course but the instructors barely touched on shifting. the most we did was upshift to 2nd from 1st and then back to 1st and we didnt get any explanation as to when to shift gears.

[csmith12]

Hmmm, we just had a similar question just last week or so. Lemme dig up the link.

[rojoracing53]

Dude seriously you over thinking this by astronomical proportions. There is no correect answer to any of what you just asked, there's only preferences.

1st stop looking at the instrument cluster to check your rpms while downshifting, that's going to get you killed.

2nd try releasing the clutch between each shift instead of holding it in and shifting multiple time. This will allow you to feel the current rmps for each gear, that way when you reach the rpms that "YOU" feel comfortable with you can just leave it there.

If you feel there isn't enough time to release the clutch for each shift then you simply suck at shifting do worry you will get better but until then just give yourself a bit more time by starting to downshift earlier.

Just remember riding a motorcycle isn't rocket science so if it seems super complicated then you probably thinking about it to hard.

good luck and keep the rubber side down and the shiny side up

[Lychee]

Like Jason said, it doesn't matter that much. Try everything until you find a method that you like and is smooth.

[YunMing]

What I do is clutch in, down shift, blip throttle, clutch out. You can just clutch in, down shift and clutch out as well but you really feel the engine braking.

[Motofool]

Originally Posted by syoo

..........i cant tell when the bike needs more or less power and when the engine is struggling just by sound and feel..........

That is all you need !!!

As stated above, simply forget about the numbers (rpms and gear #) because those will only distract you from looking ahead and feeling the bike as an extension of your own body.

Downshifting is just for matching the rpms' of crankshaft and rear wheel, so the engine stays in the high torque zone for when you need to re-accelerate or leaving the turn.

The braking effect of downshifting is optional.
That means that the rider can under rev the engine on purpose, so it rotates slower than the wheel (relatively speaking), inducing an engine brake effect while clutching-out.

The rider can also rev the engine sufficiently, so it rotates as fast as the wheel (relatively speaking), inducing no engine brake effect while clutching-out.
In the second case, the brakes do all the deceleration (after the initial deceleration caused by the initial throttle roll-off).

Learn to play with your clutch over its full range, it is not only for staring moving, it is a flexible connection between your engine and rear wheel for any speed, it will become a good friend.

Read this thread, so you understand the principles:
http://www.ninjette.org/forums/showt...t=downshifting

Practice this frequently and far from traffic, until you learn to understand what your engine and bike are trying to tell you.
We all have gone through that process, just be patient and persistent and you will improve very soon.

[csmith12]

This is what Jason really meant to say in a way that a new rider will be able to apply to his/her riding.

http://www.ninjette.org/forums/showp...4&postcount=10

[syoo]

okay, so i think ive got the blipping while downshifting thing down and my downshifts have gotten a lot smoother. but im still having trouble understanding the whole rpm thing - ive read in a few forums where people say that the ideal rpm range for a 250 is 6-8k. does that mean i should ideally be keeping the bikes rpm within that range no matter what gear/speed im going? and when people say that they downshift under 4k, does that mean even when they're in, say, 5th gear at 80kph, theyll keep the bike in 5th gear as they slow down until the rpm is under 4k and then theyll begin to downshift?

[csmith12]

Forget about 6-8k rpms as a target. If the bike is happy, and if the rider is happy, it don't matter if your putting around in 3rd at 5500 rpm. Do what makes you feel comfortable. Once your more experienced, you can shoot for rpm goals to maximize power.

As for when to downshift, feel will tell you. If the bike is lugging under load, then downshift, if the bike is revving higher than you want, upshift. Their really is no secret to it, no counting of gears or shifts, no looking at the speedo. Experienced riders are always in a gear that is within a compliant range of their speed of travel. As they slow, they downshift one gear at a time and let out the clutch to keep the engine turning within that compliant range.

Follow the link in my above post. It's a skill that's built over time, as there is no hard rule. Even at advanced levels of riding skill, mis-shifts, false neutrals and downshifting to early and late is fairly common. Let's face it, nobody is perfect 100% of the time.

[Motofool]

Originally Posted by syoo

.........and when people say that they downshift under 4k, does that mean even when they're in, say, 5th gear at 80kph, theyll keep the bike in 5th gear as they slow down until the rpm is under 4k and then theyll begin to downshift?

Note that this is happening during slowing down, when no power is required from the engine.
The engine can be happily rotating at idle rpm's, or even below that, while the rest of the bike moves at whatever speed.

While the bike is moving, the engine is being helped to rotate by the impulse of the bike (even with clutch in, the oil viscosity transfers enough energy into the engine).

Now, if the engine is required to accelerate or speed up the bike, from 5th gear and rpms' under 4k, you will feel little push (like the engine was 30 cc).

As stated above, when you twist the throttle trying to speed up and your bike feels weak, just downshift.

Don't sweat the rpms or look down to the instruments, feel the power band of your engine, it may be between 6K and 8K or some other numbers, according to your specific engine and the adjustment of the valves and carburetors.

You need max power from your engine when accelerating fast or at WOT, for more moderate accelerations and speeds, you have a wider range of rpms' that will be "adequate".

You don't need any power from your engine when decelerating; hence, rpms' are irrelevant then.

The technique of downshifting as decelerating is useful for when we have to accelerate again: you will have the engine's max power available.

[Gaorilla]

Originally Posted by YunMing

What I do is clutch in, down shift, blip throttle, clutch out. You can just clutch in, down shift and clutch out as well but you really feel the engine braking.

I think I might be having this trouble but only if I'm downshifting from 2nd to 1st. While in 1st I let go of the clutch and feel the engine braking. This doesn't happen to me in other gears...weird.

[rojoracing53]

Originally Posted by Gaorilla

I think I might be having this trouble but only if I'm downshifting from 2nd to 1st. While in 1st I let go of the clutch and feel the engine braking. This doesn't happen to me in other gears...weird.

it's not weird is leverage and speed, basic physics

[Gaorilla]

Originally Posted by rojoracing53

it's not weird is leverage and speed, basic physics

Haven't taken physics yet in school

[ally99]

One correction:
Engine braking DOES occur in every gear, not just first. You just feel it more in such a short gear.

[rojoracing53]

Originally Posted by Gaorilla

Haven't taken physics yet in school

Well then get on it. It one of those subjects that's about as useful as common sense. Now that I think about it I've never taken physics, is it even available in HS

[Gaorilla]

Originally Posted by ally99

One correction:
Engine braking DOES occur in every gear, not just first. You just feel it more in such a short gear.

How do I stop / minimize engine braking? I sometimes lock my wheels cuz of this. Just let the clutch out slowly after downshifting while blipin the throttle?

[Gaorilla]

Originally Posted by rojoracing53

Well then get on it. It one of those subjects that's about as useful as common sense. Now that I think about it I've never taken physics, is it even available in HS

It is in New York. I've never taken it, and I'm in my 4th year of college. I'll look into taking it, learned chem and biology b4..

[rojoracing53]

Originally Posted by Gaorilla

How do I stop / minimize engine braking? I sometimes lock my wheels cuz of this. Just let the clutch out slowly after downshifting while blipin the throttle?

Really there is no special technique to what your asking, you simple have terrible clutch control and shifting skills and maybe a habit of heavy rear brake usage. If you give us a more detailed description of what your doing when it happens we may be able to suggest some corrections to your riding techniques.

[Whiskey]

Originally Posted by Gaorilla

How do I stop / minimize engine braking? I sometimes lock my wheels cuz of this. Just let the clutch out slowly after downshifting while blipin the throttle?

It's down to you dropping 2 gears at a time, that will exaggerate the engine braking.

Either drop one by one or give it a good dose of throttle to keep your speed up and then roll off smoothly once you're in the right gear.

I used to say the gear out loud as I click it to keep track of them, still it didn't stop me looking for 7th on multiple occasions...
I still do that on an unfamiliar bike, even if it has a gear indicator. (But generally I don't go hunting 7th on the bigger ones)

EDIT: I'm doing this on a phone & thought you were the op, don't know if you're dropping multiple gears in one go or having trouble counting your gears

[ally99]

Originally Posted by Gaorilla

How do I stop / minimize engine braking? I sometimes lock my wheels cuz of this. Just let the clutch out slowly after downshifting while blipin the throttle?

You're downshifting when the RPMs are too high or downshifting through the gears too quickly if you're locking wheels. Blipping the throttle is a must, but this has to be done correctly. Seems like you may need to get in an empty parking lot or a rural road and do some practice shifting until it becomes smooth.Also, there's really no need to shift down to first any time you're moving. Save 1st for complete stops.

[Gaorilla]

Originally Posted by ally99

You're downshifting when the RPMs are too high or downshifting through the gears too quickly if you're locking wheels. Blipping the throttle is a must, but this has to be done correctly. Seems like you may need to get in an empty parking lot or a rural road and do some practice shifting until it becomes smooth.Also, there's really no need to shift down to first any time you're moving. Save 1st for complete stops.

Thanks

[Motofool]

Originally Posted by Gaorilla

How do I stop / minimize engine braking? I sometimes lock my wheels cuz of this. Just let the clutch out slowly after downshifting while blipin the throttle?

Just open the throttle as needed as you clutch out and your rear wheel will not lock up.

We downshift for three different reasons:
1) We need more torque (rotational force on the rear tire).
2) We are slowing down and want to keep the transmission in the proper gear just in cases 1 or 3.
3) We are using the engine as a brake (downhill, wet road, help to bad brakes, etc.).

Your rear wheel can rotate from zero to ~1,500 rpm (turns per minute).
Your crankshaft can rotate from zero to ~12,000 rpm (turns per minute).

The transmission is the magic tool that harmonizes those so different rotational speeds.
The clutch is the magic flexible link in that chain.

The engine is decently strong only around 9,000 rpm, crankshaft's speed around which max torque is delivered, but still too weak to be directly connected to that big rear wheel.

The transmission is an adjustable (in steps) lever.
That lever offers that weak engine mechanical leverage over the wheel.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mechanical_advantage

These are the approximate ratios of your levers, .......... I mean gear combinations:

1st 39/15, 2nd 34/19, 3rd 31/22, 4th 29/25, 5th 27/27, 6th 25/28

As you can see, when you shift from second to first while keeping the rotational speed of the rear wheel more or less constant, you are adjusting the transmission ratio from 1.79 to 2.60.

That means that your crankshaft, in order to harmonize with the rotation of the wheel needs to speed up 2.60/1.79 = 1.45.
That means that the engine must rotate 45% faster in first than in second gear.

Currently, you are keeping the throttle closed, preventing the engine from breathing and then impulsing it with the rotation of the rear wheel and the inertia of the whole bike and your body.

Naturally, a choked engine resists that impulse and tries slowing down that pushy rear wheel, even locking it sometimes.

Again, opening the throttle so the engine rotates 45 % after being connected to first gear, completely eliminates that braking or locking effect.

Based on the same principle, you should open the throttle more for case 1 above, and less for case 3.

[Motofool]

Read full text here:
http://www.motorcycle.com/rider-safe...ves-88119.html

"One of the hallmarks of proficient motorcyclists is the smoothness with which they apply the controls. Downshifting and braking are two of the skills that require the most finesse. Get ham-fisted with either, and you will display (and anyone riding with you will see) the telltale bobbing of an unsettled chassis – or worse, crash. This is why novices are recommended to master the basics of both braking and downshifting separately before trying to cram them together while rushing headlong into a corner."

[alex.s]

Link to original page on YouTube.

[alex.s]

i just watched the video i posted again. funny tid bit at the very end. notice how they talk about being able to stop from 60 going down hill using engine brake.... because their brakes back then were really THAT bad that they couldn't stop going downhill at 60. haaaahahaz.

[Motofool]

Great video, Alex !!!

The "golden rule" of mechanics essentially states that whatever you lose in power you gain in displacement.

Then, whatever your rear wheel loses in torque it gains in rpm's (forward speed) and vice-verse.